And then I ran out of injector and then I called it quit. Also It didn't want to enrichen when I comanded more fuel. Like the pump was giving up or the filter is plugged. I can work on making that torque line flatter. Some notes: It gained about 60lbs/ft of torque @ 3000RPM and about 50lbs/ft of torque @ 6000RPM compared to the previous dyno!
That car sounds very healthy, awesome work! The torque curve is what I find amazing. I am excited for ya. ha
Thanks Spades! I was able to squeeze about 60lbs/lbs of torque@3000rpm but my surprise came at the top end. It picked up about another 50lbs/ft of torque @6000rpms! The torque curve looks like an eletric motor torque curve!
...and on a MUSTANG dyno which means you are really making over 330 rwhp most likely...
Amazing, yet to me - completely unsurprising - results! I expected this and if you went back to stock wheels and tires it would be a bit higher. E85 adds power across the board and likes compression. I picked up 12 hp with barely any tuning. We couldn't get an A/F reading because I had too many holes in my exhaust... Actually, I need to go back to the dyno at some point and perhaps I'll put on some street wheels to see what I'm really making compared to my 52 pound wheel-tire combination.
Perhaps you can add a signature to your posts that says:
"Don't you know - iron heads don't flow?" - Stupid Fiero troll
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-17-2019).]
Perhaps you can add a signature to your posts that says:
"Don't you know - iron heads don't flow?" - Stupid Fiero troll
That's not a bad idea! I went to the ThirdGen forum because a guy invited me to share my results on the 3.4 and let me tell you about trolls! One dude even said that he wants to see the car run on the quarter mile to see if it matches the hp I'm claiming because he doesnt believe me! And he says so because he has seen lots of people try to hit 250 with aluminum heads and more stuff done to the engines than what done and because "I now these engines VERY well".
Do you have the full one that goes to 6000 or more?
It was difficult to keep the RPMs steady at 5000 when trying to match the car's tach to the dyno. The smallest variation of the throttle caused a major RPM climb so we did our best. I believe I let off at 6200 looking at the car's tach. We also set 6000 for max rpms.
Thanks Spades! I was able to squeeze about 60lbs/lbs of torque@3000rpm but my surprise came at the top end. It picked up about another 50lbs/ft of torque @6000rpms! The torque curve looks like an eletric motor torque curve!
At what point was the prior dyno taken? You've done more with it than just the switch to E85, right?
Originally posted by Will: At what point was the prior dyno taken? You've done more with it than just the switch to E85, right?
I could swear I saw something over the summer where he was at ~277 rw [MustangDyno] HP...and I commented that that is 300+ on a dynojet already...and that was pre-E85... This was not long after posting my +10-12 rwhp gain just by switching to E85 with a meh tune...and gaining 22 rwhp @ 6000 rpm by "fixing" the Fiero middle intake manifold...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-17-2019).]
Originally posted by La fiera: That's not a bad idea! I went to the ThirdGen forum because a guy invited me to share my results on the 3.4 and let me tell you about trolls! One dude even said that he wants to see the car run on the quarter mile to see if it matches the hp I'm claiming because he doesnt believe me! And he says so because he has seen lots of people try to hit 250 with aluminum heads and more stuff done to the engines than what done and because "I now these engines VERY well".
Dyno operators are not computer experts. On my last one - he had just upgraded to a newer system and I had to help him figure out how to create the graph with the proper scales and units. Recording the data is the easy part.
Originally posted by ericjon262: or the alternating 327-328 ticks for the RPM...
If you look at the graph, it starts at 2502 RPM and ends at 5777 RPM. That's a range of 3275 RPM. And it's a 10x10 grid.
3275 / 10 = 327.5
There's your answer.
Side note: IIRC there is software you can put on your computer to display the raw data from the dyno machine, just like they do at the dyno shop. I can't remember the name. But if the dyno operator is willing to share the raw data, you could download that software and make your own graphs.
If they don't know what they are doing with new software and just use auto [scaling] settings that's what you might get. For mine - I had him edit the graph parameters to see it as it should be seen.
If you look at the graph, it starts at 2502 RPM and ends at 5777 RPM. That's a range of 3275 RPM. And it's a 10x10 grid.
3275 / 10 = 327.5
There's your answer.
Side note: IIRC there is software you can put on your computer to display the raw data from the dyno machine, just like they do at the dyno shop. I can't remember the name. But if the dyno operator is willing to share the raw data, you could download that software and make your own graphs.
The DynoJet viewer lets you do that for raw DynoJet files... not sure about a Mustang dyno. I've put multiple runs of my car taken years apart on the same graph. It's fun and potentially illuminating.
with this much skill pulling power out of the iron 60* v6 engine, i'd love to see you build a northstar v8 for your racing purposes, But i understand the northstar is atleast 100lbs heavier.
did i read something in your posts about having a 4.9L v8 in one of the fieros? i know those are supposed to be pretty light weight, but not high revving. (and they are iron head too)
with this much skill pulling power out of the iron 60* v6 engine, i'd love to see you build a northstar v8 for your racing purposes, But i understand the northstar is atleast 100lbs heavier.
did i read something in your posts about having a 4.9L v8 in one of the fieros? i know those are supposed to be pretty light weight, but not high revving. (and they are iron head too)
I'm the one with a 4.9... It's OT for this thread. This is La Fiera's thread about his wonderful 3.4. Having owned both for years - I've many times stated that a properly [re]built 3.4 is a better engine than a 4.9 and only 2.5 owners should consider the 4.9 swap.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-20-2019).]
Originally posted by lou_dias: I've many times stated that a properly [re]built 3.4 is a better engine than a 4.9 and only 2.5 owners should consider the 4.9 swap.
I like to call the 4.9 V8 the "Double Duke". It has roughly double the displacement, power, and torque. And it's just as fragile.
the 3.4L build here is very very impressive, I was the first forum member to get one of the truleo intakes on a 3.4L and my car was used for dyno testing, a bone stock 3.4L pushrod with no mods other than the truleo intake and 19# injectors, i pulled 143HP and 189ft/lbs at the wheels, seeing as this supernatural 3.4L is pulling well over double the wheel horsepower that i had on my car its extremely impressive.
the 3.4L build here is very very impressive, I was the first forum member to get one of the truleo intakes on a 3.4L and my car was used for dyno testing, a bone stock 3.4L pushrod with no mods other than the truleo intake and 19# injectors, i pulled 143HP and 189ft/lbs at the wheels, seeing as this supernatural 3.4L is pulling well over double the wheel horsepower that i had on my car its extremely impressive.
I'm humbled by your words m0sh-man. Thank you for the encouragement and there's still more to come. I can probably squize another 25-30WHP out of it. If i can make 325WHPwith this one I'll stop there and concentrate on the rest of the build and on the Supernatural 3.7. Which by the way I have to raise my WHP goals to 350WHP. I will update that thread because that short block hardware has been re designed with a new approach.
I've built plenty of "one of" engines but this one is my favorite! It is compact and it packs a PUNCH! Thanks for all of you that cheer me on, you keep me going when I feel like giving up!
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-20-2019).]
Considering that the hp curve is more or less of a straight line, it seems like by revving even higher than 6000 RPM you could stay more in the meat of your powerband while actually driving the car.
Considering that the hp curve is more or less of a straight line, it seems like by revving even higher than 6000 RPM you could stay more in the meat of your powerband while actually driving the car.
Is this something you are expecting to try?
Yes, that's the plan. But the reason why I limit the runs to 6000rpms is because I have all stock short block components. Like you said, I can see the engine has more potencial at higher RPMs specially with this "electric moto"r like torque curve. So the plan is to take what we learned from this 3.4 and apply it to the 3.7, more cubes and more revs. The 3.7 cam is a bit bigger on the exhaust side to extend top end hp and that may affect the low end torque. I might change other parameters on the cam to make up for the extra exhaust flow. We have to wait and see.
That reminds me. I have to start prepping my next set of heads for my 3.5L build... My goal with that one is to use 5.8" or 5.9" rods so that it has no problem revving to 7500+ and I can stay in 2nd gear racing on the oval track.
That reminds me. I have to start prepping my next set of heads for my 3.5L build... My goal with that one is to use 5.8" or 5.9" rods so that it has no problem revving to 7500+ and I can stay in 2nd gear racing on the oval track.
I'm surprised you haven't installed that intake you got from me. Combined with your heads and the roller cam from WOT-TECH you want to get (since you look down on mechanical flat tappets ) It will boost your mid range and top end power tremendously.
Originally posted by La fiera: I'm surprised you haven't installed that intake you got from me. Combined with your heads and the roller cam from WOT-TECH you want to get (since you look down on mechanical flat tappets ) It will boost your mid range and top end power tremendously.
I'm saving it for the 3.5 ... Probably put that in my red Formula...along with the WOT-Tech .510" cam ... Right now I'm still on the 3.4 with .480" cam and ported Firebird intake.
Money has been tight for the past year but my 3-car garage is finally built.
This week I will finally be moving everything that belongs to a Fiero to the 2nd floor of my garage.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-23-2019).]
with this much skill pulling power out of the iron 60* v6 engine, i'd love to see you build a northstar v8 for your racing purposes, But i understand the northstar is atleast 100lbs heavier.
The Northstar is within about 20 lbs of an all-iron V6/60.
Peak we are pretty close but under the curve the little V6 is a stomp puller.
I don't know that I would say that's a comparable build, Will's N* is built using mostly stock parts, I think the pistons and rods are the only "Performance" parts in the engine, with stock heads, cam, and intake. he did some porting of the block to improve bay to bay breathing, installed time serts for the head and main studs, and then put all the best stock parts together that he could.
Edit:
Also, BSFC would tell more of the story here as well, I'd bet Will's N* is probably more efficient.
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 12-23-2019).]
Originally posted by ericjon262: I don't know that I would say that's a comparable build, Will's N* is built using mostly stock parts, I think the pistons and rods are the only "Performance" parts in the engine, with stock heads, cam, and intake. he did some porting of the block to improve bay to bay breathing, installed time serts for the head and main studs, and then put all the best stock parts together that he could.
Edit:
Also, BSFC would tell more of the story here as well, I'd bet Will's N* is probably more efficient.
Not by any means I'm comparing apples to apples. All the 3.4 has is Intake, heads, cam and exhaust, the bottom end is completely stock with stock DOHC pistons, stock head bolts and stock head gaskets, nothing fancy. The N* has an extra 1.2 liters, 20 more valves and 2 more cylinders. I agree, It's not a fair comparison. As far as efficiency, I don't know what you mean by that. Compare the HP and TQ @ 2500rpms. The 3.4 has +60WTQ and +35WHP on the 4.6. But simple math will tell you which one is more efficient, the 51WHP per cylinder from the 3.4 V6 or the 37WHP per cylinder on the 4.6 V8.
What I'm saying is that if that N* was mine it would be over 400WHP N/A.
Originally posted by La fiera: What I'm saying is that if that N* was mine it would be over 400WHP N/A.
I mean, that's probably not too hard, but I don't think it was his goal when he built it though.
By efficiency, I'm meaning that a N* like Will's probably burns less fuel to make similar power. it probably also has a ton more room to grow compared to your 3.4
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Not by any means I'm comparing apples to apples. All the 3.4 has is Intake, heads, cam and exhaust, the bottom end is completely stock with stock DOHC pistons, stock head bolts and stock head gaskets, nothing fancy. The N* has an extra 1.2 liters, 20 more valves and 2 more cylinders. I agree, It's not a fair comparison. As far as efficiency, I don't know what you mean by that. Compare the HP and TQ @ 2500rpms. The 3.4 has +60WTQ and +35WHP on the 4.6. But simple math will tell you which one is more efficient, the 51WHP per cylinder from the 3.4 V6 or the 37WHP per cylinder on the 4.6 V8.
What I'm saying is that if that N* was mine it would be over 400WHP N/A.
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I mean, that's probably not too hard, but I don't think it was his goal when he built it though.
By efficiency, I'm meaning that a N* like Will's probably burns less fuel to make similar power. it probably also has a ton more room to grow compared to your 3.4
Oh, geez, where's the ruler? Let's just whip them out.
I'm still using stock Cadillac cams. So what? I'm still using the stock Cadillac intake. So what? I'm still using unported stock cylinder heads. So what? Would my engine make more power if I had fully worked heads, giant rumpety-rump cams, long tube headers and an intake stack that made me cut a big hole in my decklid? Of course it would. So what?
Unlike some of us, I never claimed I'd be God's gift to engine building... just that I was going to have fun and see what I could learn. I've certainly had my setbacks and issues.
So anyway... 300 ftlbs at the wheels out of a 3.4? Did you find the same dyno that Motor Trend used for the C8 Corvette?
I understand the usefulness of Mustang dynos as tools, but their use to generate numbers for internet arguments seems to be their primary selling point.
A Dynojet drum has a known moment of inertia. A power source that can change that drum's RPM from X1 to X2 in Y time makes (X2^2-X1^2)/Y power. This is physics. Any tool that measures that same power source at the same rate of change of RPM and produces a different number is WRONG. There are LOT of ways a Mustang dyno can produce radically different results than a Dynojet.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-24-2019).]
I haven't said anything in this thread, because I really don't have much to contribute. (I stopped with my 3.4 at ~200 HP, by the butt dyno, and the guesstimated "sum of the parts". Ended up selling the car.) With that said... holy crap! Quite impressive!
quote
Originally posted by La fiera: ... All the 3.4 has is Intake, heads, cam and exhaust, the bottom end is completely stock with stock DOHC pistons, stock head bolts and stock head gaskets, nothing fancy.
FWIW, the DOHC redlines at 7200, right out of the box. I believe the rotating assembly consists of the same pieces. Of course, they're not stressed nearly as hard as yours.
You know La Fiera I love the way you have added so much power to an 3.4 and you have proven it many times congratulations!
The points I want to bring is: Engine reliability, not sure how many km this 3.4 will endure, Fuel consumption = Ouff ...
Of course, your goal is not to make it an everyday car.
I made a swap in my fiero 87 with a 3.5L Pontiac G6 2005 LX9 5 speed and I have another fiero 86 with a 3.8SC automatic, both with very few modifications. The 2 engines run like clocks with very good performance and a good fuel consumption and a very good reliability.
We have 2 different thought. And for finish your 3.4 since you converted it to the E85 I really don't like is rough idle.
Merry christmas everybody and La fiera continues to surprise us with some new modifications on the future 3.7 L
Originally posted by Raydar: FWIW, the DOHC redlines at 7200, right out of the box.
And that's with a Rube Goldberg valvetrain.
There's a guy on the 60degreeV6 forum revving his engine to 8000+ RPM in his race car. Look for username veekuusi. He also has a YouTube channel (also named veekuusi).
There's a guy on the 60degreeV6 forum revving his engine to 8000+ RPM in his race car. Look for username veekuusi. He also has a YouTube channel (also named veekuusi).
Holy crap! Is that forum still in existence? Last time I checked, it looked like a lot of dead links, and only a few recent posts.
There's a guy in AZ who has one that he is planning to push to 8K+. Lots of mods, though.
The torque curve is what I find amazing. I am excited for ya. ha
That's not a bad idea!
) It will boost your mid range and top end power tremendously. 
