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Opinions on the Best Axles and Axle Seals on a Stock 2.8 4-speed? by USMUCL
Started on: 06-02-2017 10:22 AM
Replies: 25 (632 views)
Last post by: Larryinkc on 07-09-2020 12:45 PM
USMUCL
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Report this Post06-02-2017 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all,

So the movement to refresh my low mileage garage queen continues (86 SE 4-speed V6). Seems like it is 2 steps forward, one back. But, it is getting done.

A while back, I paid a reputable shop to replace my leaking axle seals. When they did, the right seal took just great, the left leaked a little after a short time. So, I made them redo it.

This time, the same one is seeping again. I ensured all the right things (I think) when they did the labor, e.g. they are using Permatex between the outer ring and the casing to account for scratches, they are lubing the seal itself, etc.

So, the shop will do it again. They are a little perplexed, but did note that the axle on that side had some "pitting" long the point where the seal would meet it -- likely from the car sitting undriven so much. In case that is the cause, I agreed to supply them with a new axle since they aren't too expensive and I don't want to do this a 4th time. I also volunteered to bring my own seal -- just in case theirs is cheap and that is the issue.

So, as far as axles and seals go, is there a standard "best" for the stock Fiero? Cardone axle and ACDelco seal?
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olejoedad
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Report this Post06-02-2017 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You nailed it!
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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-02-2017 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You mean about the axle pitting causing the leak . . . or about Cardone axle and ACDelco seal?

EDIT: When I go to both Cardone's and ACDelco's parts catalogs, they show axles/seals only for the auto trans . . .

[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 06-02-2017).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post06-02-2017 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
About the part choices....

The auto and manual trans use the same seals.....

Your local auto parts guy should be able to fix you up with the proper Cardone manual transmission axles.

All manual transmission equipped Fieros use the same axles, side for side.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 06-02-2017).]

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cvxjet
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Report this Post06-02-2017 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The pitting could be causing the problem....You could replace it-even with one out of the JY if it's in good shape.....And I have to admit I don't know axle choices....Maybe someone with good knowledge will chime in.
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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-02-2017 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks. On the first redo, they showed me the pitting, and then they used 320ish grit sandpaper to smooth it out. But, he was still concerned it could be an issue.

Now, with a new axle and an ACDelco seal, I'm hoping it will be good to go.
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Report this Post06-02-2017 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wgpierceSend a Private Message to wgpierceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Um, 320 sandpaper? if that got the pitting out (doubt it), needs to be polished after that.
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Report this Post06-03-2017 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The rebuilt units are apparently not as robust as the original GM axles. I would keep the originals as spares, and pay the core charge, if applicable.

I don't know if this kind of damage can be repaired by spray welding at a local machine shop.
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Report this Post06-03-2017 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Seals can leak in 3 ways...
1. rubber/axle leak because too old, seal damage or axle damage. New seals are easy to wreck install the axle etc.
2. rubber/axle leak because of trans problem like too loose final bearings for a stick car.
3. trans hole and outside seal metal leak. Likely damage done to remove the seal and install new one dry.

See my Cave, Axle

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave

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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-03-2017 04:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ogre - got it. The trans is good - only 10k miles. They definitely used Permatex to compensate for any casing scratches. And I have to assume they didn't rip the gasket on axle install. I am confident this is a pitting issue from the car sitting so much.

PMBrunelle - in doing research and talking with members here, it would seem both the Cardone and Carquest axles are good. As with everything else, Duralast axles are crap in comparison.

WGPierce, see below. This is the instruction that comes with the ACDelco seal. It's "320 Grit Cloth." The shop doing the work also confirmed this to be a standard practice. Regardless, it will be irrelevant with a new axle.

[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 06-03-2017).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post06-03-2017 06:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cardone axles are remanned from GM parts.
The are as strong or stronger than new GM units.
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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-17-2017 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bought the AC Delco Seal -- check!

So, I decided to buy both the Carquest NEW axle, and the Cardone REMANUFACTURED axle, knowing I'd return the one I don't use. The one of the LEFT IS CARQUEST (box says the manufacturer is "Tough One"), and the RIGHT IS CARDONE.

Differences:

1. The Carquest axle just looks new.
2. The Carquest axle has cheap looking boots, while the Cardone's boots look like the OEM
3. The Cardone axle doesn't have the 3 lobe end on the inner side like both the Carquest and the OEM. Is that an issue?
4. The Carquest axle is about 1/2" longer than the Cardone. Not sure if that makes one of them the wrong size, or if it doesn't matter?

My thought is use the Cardone, if nothing else cause of what Olejoedad recommends. I take pause because the inner side doesn't look like OEM.

What say the crowd?


[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 06-17-2017).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post06-17-2017 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can you measure axle diameter on both units and report back?
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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-17-2017 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Can you measure axle diameter on both units and report back?


I don't have the tool to do it exactly. But, using a tape measure at the very center of each axle, they appear the same diameter -- between 1-1/16" and 1-1/8th"

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Larryinkc
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Report this Post06-17-2017 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LarryinkcSend a Private Message to LarryinkcEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This might work, shaft repair sleeve

https://www.rockauto.com/en...+repair+sleeve,14015
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USMUCL
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Report this Post06-17-2017 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At this point, the only decision is the Cardone or the Carquest ....
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olejoedad
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Report this Post06-17-2017 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, diameter is good. I have seen a few OEM manual transmission axles that have the smooth inner tripot, but they are not common. I think I would go with the 3 lobed tripot axle......
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Report this Post06-17-2017 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Note: Axle length are measured w/ inner CV compressed. Have help to measure.
Compare one you have w/ both above before you install.

Why? Many computers have wrong PN or Box w/ right PN can have wrong axle.
Too short and you wreck the inner.
Too long and you can't install or can wreck the transmission.

New smooth boots seems to last longer then old w/ sharp angels.
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Report this Post06-17-2017 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, between oledadjoe's advice on the 3-lobe and Ogre's on the boot, it is looking like the Carquest axle might be the winner ... if it is the right length.

Reference the length, is there a certain amount of wiggle room that might make either okay, or does it need to be exact?
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Report this Post06-18-2017 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by USMUCL:
So, between oledadjoe's advice on the 3-lobe and Ogre's on the boot, it is looking like the Carquest axle might be the winner ... if it is the right length.

Reference the length, is there a certain amount of wiggle room that might make either okay, or does it need to be exact?
Exact is best but may not be a simple overall length when switching designs. Use OE axle side by side to see everything matching bearing points etc.

Inner CV only work in ~ 1/2 to maybe 3/4 of an inch.
Too long and ICV can bind at best.
Too short and car may move in a straight line but Loads in a turn and the joint can fail and cause big problems when axle beats everything in reach or bind in the cradle etc.

You never want the axle nut to pull the axle and stretch the inner boot.
Watch ICV when compressed for measuring. You don't watch to see that in the car either.
Boot should look close to ~ same as above, a little compressed when car is on level ground.

Remember:
Wheel move in/out and up/down when you hit a bump etc. (In/out is Part of "bump steer" issue.)
Engine and trans moves some in a turn as result of lateral G load. (Bad motor/trans mounts can wreck CVs too.)
Inner CV is made to take these.
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USMUCL
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Report this Post07-06-2017 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for USMUCLSend a Private Message to USMUCLEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As a close out . . .

I bought the CARQUEST, the Cardone, and the Detroit Axle.

Based on some other recommendations, I ended up going with Detroit and returning the other two. Not only did the Detroit Axles come highly recommended, but they are the only ones made (remanned) in the U.S. and looked identical to the OEM. It was actually a few bucks cheaper than the others, too.

I combined that with the ACDelco seal and (knock on wood), no more tranny oil leak.

[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 07-06-2017).]

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Report this Post07-06-2017 12:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by USMUCL:
but they are the only ones made (remanned) in the U.S. and looked identical to the OEM. It was actually a few bucks cheaper than the others, too.


Gotta believe in miracles sometimes.
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Report this Post07-08-2020 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bHooperSend a Private Message to bHooperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How did this turn out? My 86 Gt 4spd has been weeping on the drivers side, since installing a new clutch/seals/axles 2 years ago. I finally got around to installing a set of the Fiero Store Axle Stabiliers and still have a weep coming from the drivers side (with the car sitting on jackstands).

I have the original axles and was thinking of having the local guy rebuild them, if he's still doing so.
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olejoedad
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Report this Post07-09-2020 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The bearing stabilizers will leak if you don't use sealant on Installation, and even then they sometimes leak......
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Report this Post07-09-2020 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bHooperSend a Private Message to bHooperEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

The bearing stabilizers will leak if you don't use sealant on Installation, and even then they sometimes leak......


Apparently I also have the "round" axle from Carquest/Advance. I have a great relationship with my vendor, so I may try to bring in a few axles and find the right one or, get the local guy to rebuild my originals.

As for the Stabilizers, I initially used some red locktite, but the one side leaked and then I discovered it wasn't installed straight. It doesn't appear you can easily remove them, so I took a seal driver kit and got it square and reapplied a coat of Permatex to the outside. Unfortunately it is still weeping a bit, which makes me think axle.

[This message has been edited by bHooper (edited 07-09-2020).]

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Report this Post07-09-2020 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LarryinkcSend a Private Message to LarryinkcEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
GM made an axle stabilizer kit for the TH125, I was able to modify it to fit both sides of my HM282 Getrag. The kits have a roller bearing in the carrier and a sleeve that presses on the axle axle shaft with red loctite . The bearing carrier is sealed to the case with an O ring. Part numbers for the kit are 8643931 or K75125. Maybe they can be adapted to the work on other manual transmissions also.

Thread with a couple of pics of them installed.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/140014.html

[This message has been edited by Larryinkc (edited 07-09-2020).]

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