Why put a delete pipe there? Put a high flow cat and do your part to save the environment...
There's no reason not to run a cat. You won't get better performance without it, and it is illegal to remove (I believe US Federal law doesn't allow it....though some states don't enforce it). You'll also have to put up with the bad smell that results from running without it.
Answer.. No. No check engine light. Exhaust will be louder and kinda harsh. I did the same as you're planning but later put a high flow Magna Flow universal CAT on to smooth out the exhaust note. The CAT cost about $70, was easy to install, and made a huge difference in tone and eliminated highway drone from exhaust. Ours is a 2.8L with stock muffler and headers, with the high flow CAT.
No check engine light. Drone will drive you crazy. Exhaust will most likely stink.
I'm running a stock exhaust, no cat on a 3.4. No drone, No harsh sound. Exhaust does have a smell if I'm standing behind it, more like the old cars before converters.
As for cats I don't use them. Expensive, a fire hazard and not necessary. If I drive my Fiero to some shows throughout the year, my car will put out 1/10000th the pollution of Air Force One, the presidents plane and probably 1/1000th what his limo uses. If its good for him, it must also be good for the people!
In past centuries when urban streets did not have sanitary sewers, gutters were made deep enough to serve that purpose as well.
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You missed the point. I make less pollution than the president of the USA. Why is it OK for him to grossly pollute and not for us "little people". You don't see any hypocrisy there?
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As for cats I don't use them. Expensive, a fire hazard and not necessary. If I drive my Fiero to some shows throughout the year, my car will put out 1/10000th the pollution of Air Force One, the presidents plane and probably 1/1000th what his limo uses. If its good for him, it must also be good for the people!
Your statement is insanely nonsensical. We get it. You're a libertarian. But pretty much nothing in this whole post is fact.
They are not expensive. They are not a fire hazard (seriously, why do you even have a Fiero?). Your comparison to the pollution of the presidential jet or limo is also complete and utter nonsense. The jet certainly doesn't run on gasoline, nor is it an internal combustion engine. I'm not sure the limo runs on gasoline either. Many federal vehicles run on LNG or CNG these days.
If you're going to try to make such an argument for the removal of emissions equipment on a vehicle, at least get your bloody facts straight.
Even when home area doesn't care... Removing Emission Equipment, bad/illegal lighting, and so on can be trouble driving in another area or state. Out of area or out of State drivers with problems are a big target for cops. Car making bad smell is enough legal cause to stop you in many places. Once stopped for any reason, Cop can, likely will, go fishing for other problems for big tickets or arrest you. (If you drive in a city w/ "Live Stop" programs like Philly, Cops can impound the car on the spot for many reasons. Lost current Insurance card? You be walking after the stop and expect to pay heavy impound fees.)
If arrested, You can get fired from most jobs too. Big Recent Example: Eagles Josh Huff got initially stopped for speeding but got arrested for NJ Gun & ammo laws (hollow-point bullets are banned by NJ) and drugs then a few days later got Fired by Eagles. (ESPN)
Many have "antiques" and other specialty tags that state laws often requires OE emissions and limits how you drive etc but ignore that too. These tags are not made for regular driving to work etc in many states. NJ PA DE and other has rules on when and how much you drive per year because they don't test emissions etc with these tags.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Uhmmmmm,dobey..... The engines on Air Force one run on JP8 which is a fuel.....gasoline is the by-product of making diesel fuel....we get their left overs,so to speak. Jet fuel is nothing more than High Grade diesel in reality....with a few additives thrown in of course. And the turbines are most certainly internal combustion engines.....while they don't use pistons,rods and a crank...etc........the fuel is still burnt in the combustion chamber of the engine,therefore,making it and internal combustion engine.
Uhmmmmm,dobey..... The engines on Air Force one run on JP8 which is a fuel.....gasoline is the by-product of making diesel fuel....we get their left overs,so to speak. Jet fuel is nothing more than High Grade diesel in reality....with a few additives thrown in of course. And the turbines are most certainly internal combustion engines.....while they don't use pistons,rods and a crank...etc........the fuel is still burnt in the combustion chamber of the engine,therefore,making it and internal combustion engine.
I know what jet fuel is versus gasoline. A turbine is not called an internal combustion engine exactly the same way that a steam engine isn't. The combustion of the fuel is very different from a piston engine. Maybe you'd be happier if I'd said "piston engine" in the first place, but still even those are widely varied. The fact is that the way the fuel burns, along with many other factors, change what the emissions are.
A direct comparison of one vehicle with a 200-300 mile range that can carry at most 2 people, with an airplane that can carry 100+ people 5000+ miles is just ignorant. The post from Dennis was arrogant political BS and it doesn't belong in this thread, and he got called on it. Nor does your post refute anything which I said in reply to Dennis.
I've been running with no CAT for years, decades. No problems. I initially removed it because I was running a turbo. They are restrictive. My 3800SC runs great with no cat. There have been people on here who pass emissions with no CAT.
I'm not wanting to hijack the thread or get off subject,and i apologize,but there are some facts that you're missing. 1. Air Force One has a range of almost 8,000 miles on its internal tanks,not 5,000..almost unlimited with midair refueling. 2. The turbines operate on the same standard principle as all fuel driven engines do....air is taken in and compressed by the compressors or rotor assembly...choose your terminology ,fuel is added by the injectors and then a spark is introduced with the ignitor. Once the engine is up to temp the burn will sustain itself as long as the air, fuel and proper temp are present. Much the same principle as a diesel engine....once the fuel and air are compressed by the pistons and lit off in the cylinder with the glow plugs,the burn will sustain itself as long as air,fuel and proper temp are present. 3.The steam engine isn't categorized as an internal combustion engine so much because it wasn't actually burning anything internally,it used an external heat source to boil the water producing steam which moved the internals of the engine due to pressure.
i took out that stupid converter, my engine bay is 50 % cooler now without it an it saves your starter an air conditioner pump and its so easy to get to the spark plugs , kinda thinking of relocating it in the back of the car away from the engine an gas tank.
i took out that stupid converter, my engine bay is 50 % cooler now without it an it saves your starter an air conditioner pump and its so easy to get to the spark plugs , kinda thinking of relocating it in the back of the car away from the engine an gas tank.
Back in my car's younger days, it went thru a number of starters. I had never attributed the problem to the CAT, but now that you mention it, I bet that had a lot to do with it.
i took out that stupid converter, my engine bay is 50 % cooler now without it an it saves your starter an air conditioner pump and its so easy to get to the spark plugs , kinda thinking of relocating it in the back of the car away from the engine an gas tank.
Back in my car's younger days, it went thru a number of starters. I had never attributed the problem to the CAT, but now that you mention it, I bet that had a lot to do with it.
Originally posted by RotrexFiero: I've been running with no CAT for years, decades. No problems. I initially removed it because I was running a turbo. They are restrictive. My 3800SC runs great with no cat. There have been people on here who pass emissions with no CAT.
If you mean the Cat... Old cat was bad to start often cause by engine running rich, burning oil, or "Burning" coolant because bad Intake gaskets etc. Engine eating Coolant even in small amounts Will Poison the Cat(s) and the O2 sensor(s). Poison cat often sinks far worse then burn oil, run rich, etc. Example: Burning oil can causing rotten egg smell. Is why EPA and API reduce suffer and phosphorus content for new oils.
Old Pebble Bed did some with higher exhaust flow for V6 and bigger. Is part of why GM didn't use them of V6 Fiero and others. Old Monolith units for Fiero V6 and others had very little restriction unless starting to plug. New current Monolith units far less so to the point you can't measure pressure drop across them unless starting to plug.
Some may pass a simple E test w/o them... Most to all will fail using 2 speed test with or without the dyno/rollers. 2 speed tests is to try to activate the EGR system too. Failed EGR can cause NOx value to be over limit and fail even w/ a good cat. (Some states use 2 speed test w/o rollers, others with the roller to emulate real driving.)
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Originally posted by tazome: i took out that stupid converter, my engine bay is 50 % cooler now without it an it saves your starter an air conditioner pump and its so easy to get to the spark plugs , kinda thinking of relocating it in the back of the car away from the engine an gas tank.
Again, Old cat was bad to start often cause by engine running rich, burning oil, etc.
That plan is likely to cause more problems and for Same reason nonheater O2 sensor (1 and 2 wire)... Cat needs close to engine to use exhaust heat to work fast. Cat heat does not heat the Fiero gas tank, starter, etc, when car is moving. A little for car stopped for a light and no wind. Biggest heat source for fuel is lines and injector parts returning hot fuel to the tank. Is part of why many cars have move the regulator to near or in the tank.
Originally posted by edfiero: Back in my car's younger days, it went thru a number of starters. I had never attributed the problem to the CAT, but now that you mention it, I bet that had a lot to do with it.
Unlikely. Rebuilt starters often won't last. Some "new" starter won't last either. Plus add many don't have heat shields. Many starters and other parts came w/ them from car factory but lost the shield for rust, bad service, etc. Exhaust parts often had shield too and lost for same reasons.
I have the original starter that my car came with- and I live in CA- and have traveled extensively the central valley (Hot), the south west (Hot), Utah (Hot) and southern Idaho during July (Hot).....Never had to change the starter in 31 years.....And yes, I do consider myself lucky (Although having just looked out at my car and seeing sparks and smoke from the vicinity of the starter, I think I just jinxed myself!)
I actually wanted to change out the starter for one of those ultra-light ones from later engines- basically cut almost 10 lbs of the back end.....but the dang thing won't die!
I actually wanted to change out the starter for one of those ultra-light ones from later engines- basically cut almost 10 lbs of the back end.....but the dang thing won't die!
I'm having the same "problem" with the starter on my Formula. I'd like to reduce any weight I can (for autocross), but the original starter still works like new.
However, a few years ago the starter on my '84 packed it in. The duke is now sporting a lightweight newer starter. Works great!
Hey, Patrick....Aren't the starters interchangable? I thought they were....You could put the old heavy one on your 84 and move the light-weight one to your autocrosser....Unless you've done something rash- and a bit out-of-the-ordinary engine/trany wise.....
I know what jet fuel is versus gasoline. A turbine is not called an internal combustion engine exactly the same way that a steam engine isn't. The combustion of the fuel is very different from a piston engine. Maybe you'd be happier if I'd said "piston engine" in the first place, but still even those are widely varied. The fact is that the way the fuel burns, along with many other factors, change what the emissions are.
A direct comparison of one vehicle with a 200-300 mile range that can carry at most 2 people, with an airplane that can carry 100+ people 5000+ miles is just ignorant. The post from Dennis was arrogant political BS and it doesn't belong in this thread, and he got called on it. Nor does your post refute anything which I said in reply to Dennis.
This does not answer why making massive pollution is good for the political elite and making a tiny amount is not good for us. I say screw em!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: This does not answer why making massive pollution is good for the political elite and making a tiny amount is not good for us. I say screw em!
You have not defined massive pollution. Please quote some actual numbers if you want to talk about this. If you can't state some facts on the matter, then you're just spouting off your overly dramatic libertarian political bullshit to stir the pot, like you always do. Grow the **** up already.
Unless you need to pass emissions testing where you reside....running a converter has more to do with your conscience than with laws.....I've yet to ever have a cop pull me over and crawl under my cars..quite the opposite actually,I've had them catch me at a gas station or restaurant and comment that my cars sound good and that they bet it breaths fire..etc. You can run a converter/converters if it gives you piece of mind thinking that you're doing your part to help keep the world clean......that's on you and your conscience. I do agree that the output of an individual car is miniscule compared to the output of a turbine engine,factory or locomotive....etc. However,world wide...there are probably close to 100 million vehicles operating in one form or another,and their COMBINED output is significant. The automobile is THE ONE vehicle that the government and tree huggers have been able to enforce pollution standards on and haven't gotten much resistance. Do you see converters on piston driven aircraft?....I never have. Do you see converters on locomotives?......I never have. Do you see converters on turbine engines?.....I never have. Do you see converters on chainsaws and weed eaters?.....I never have. Do you see converters on go carts,4wheelers and dirt bikes?.....I never have. It wasn't until the mid 80's that they started putting converters on street bikes....and that was generally ONLY the California models. Anyone that claims that a converter doesn't restrict the flow of an engine should really take an automotive class or do some research utilizing Google. Your engine is nothing more than an air pump and ANYTHING you put in the path of the air exiting the engine is an obstruction which hinders power,including the muffler/mufflers. Everyone why headers were invented?....to move that air more efficiently. Ever wonder why engines run better with dual exhaust?....it moves that air more efficiently. There are Cat systems that are less restrictive,yes.....but they are still restrictive nonetheless. Ever see a race engine run cats?....I haven't. If there was a way to develop more power and reliability from an engine running them then all the Nascar teams,NHRA teams and the government would have beat us to the punch a long time ago. In my opinion......cats are worthless junk that add weight,complexity,expense,kill an engine when they start to clog from running the crappy fuel offered to us and they also like to catch fire. I use to work at an exhaust shop and a dealership....if the government knew how many cats I cut off or gutted for people....I would be on Death Row right now. As a side note.....I never once EVER had a customer come back and ask me to put a cat back on for them because their engine was running worse without it/them.
So which way is your conscience swinging these days?
[This message has been edited by MadProfessor8138 (edited 11-09-2016).]
The automobile is THE ONE vehicle that the government and tree huggers have been able to enforce pollution standards on and haven't gotten much resistance. Do you see converters on piston driven aircraft?....I never have. Do you see converters on locomotives?......I never have. Do you see converters on turbine engines?.....I never have. Do you see converters on chainsaws and weed eaters?.....I never have. Do you see converters on go carts,4wheelers and dirt bikes?.....I never have.
Kevin, it appears that catalytic converters are used on a lot more than just cars. From Here...
Oh,I totally agree that a converter can be placed on just about any petroleum burning engine. However,you will be hard pressed to drive around your own town and find any of the equipment that is on that list actually equipped with one. You're more apt to find equipment like that in large smog polluted cities that mandate cleaner air rules and regulations. My whole point wasn't to disagree with anyone over the converter issue but I should have been a little more clear in doing so. As I said before,a converter is really up to your own conscience in my opinion. They have goods points and bad points to them....so everyone is free to choose their own road on the issue. But claiming that a converter doesn't obstruct exhaust gas flow is incorrect. And in my opinion,making claims that the planet is going to die in the next year or two because we cut/gut converters is also false. If that's the case individuals want to make,well........I guess we should eliminate ever living thing on this planet just to protect mother earth. Every time a cow,horse,pig,dog,cat,human..etc,farts or belches...well,there goes some ozone. And every time a volcano erupts,a natural gas field is tapped,the landfills decompose...well,green house gasses are released...there goes some ozone. Instead of worrying about converters on engines.....why haven't we demanded cleaner burning fuels to feed our polluting engines? With a better fuel source.....converters aren't needed to begin with. Look at the emissions difference between a gasoline or diesel powered engine in comparison to an engine powered with LP. Cleaner fuel goes in.....cleaner exhaust emissions come out.
And in my opinion,making claims that the planet is going to die in the next year or two because we cut/gut converters is also false.
I don't recall anyone saying that anywhere.
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Originally posted by MadProfessor8138:
Instead of worrying about converters on engines.....why haven't we demanded cleaner burning fuels to feed our polluting engines?
Because generally speaking, people are cheapskates. If given a choice, we probably wouldn't pay an extra nickel a gallon for a cleaner burning fuel.
For me, it's pretty simple. Without a cat, the exhaust fumes from my cars are nauseating. With a cat installed, the fumes are tolerable. Multiply that by a million cars in every large jurisdiction...
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Originally posted by MadProfessor8138:
So which way is your conscience swinging these days?
My conscience is clear, much like the fresh sea air in the great Pacific north-west. And I wish to keep it that way.
