I keep coming across people who "think" the Ecotec and GM metric patterns may have the dowel locations in the same positions to allow crank centering. Is this true? This is going to be a built 4l60e behind an Ecotec LNF with a stand alone TCU so not going in a Fiero. If the metric pattern aligns then it will make it a lot easier to do this because I can use a metric bell from a 98-02 Camaro V6. Choosing 4l60 because I am familiar with them and I have a built spare with a V8 bell. There are adapter plates out there for V8 to Ecotec, but they are too expensive to justify the swap with this transmission especially if I can just modify a V6 bell. There are 4l60e torque converters with a .825 pilot which is the same as the Ecotec so it should be fairly easy to adapt that to an LNF flexplate.
The Ecotec and Metric bellhousing dowels are indeed in the same location... but there are a couple of reasons most don't believe it.
First whenever you are looking at the pictures with dimensions, you have to determine if you are looking at the engine view or transmission view. They will be mirror images of each other. Here is the transmission view of the GM Metric Pattern:
Here is the engine view of the Ecotec Pattern:
Second, when looking at the dimensions between these two drawings, don't assume they don't match because they have different X-Y dimensions from the crankshaft. If you lay out the dimensions of the dowel pins in autoCAD and rotate the transmission 6.82 degrees clockwise then they do match up.
So Yes, you can align the Ecotec engine to the GM Metric transmission by using the dowel pins... but will result in the engine and transmission being rotated from each other by 6.82 degrees.
However, none of the other bolt holes will line up. You may be able to located them and just re-drill the transmission bell housing or make a simple adapter plate for the bolt holes (doesn't need to be precise as the dowels will provide proper alignment).
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-16-2016).]
Great info. I can modify the bell to ecotec pattern to get enough bolts to attach its just the alignment I was after. May have to do the same on the bell to trans to clock it right because my engine sits at 10* in my Solstice. V6 bells aren't too expensive. I'll pick one up and see if it attaches to my ecotec pattern and reply back with pictures confirming.
Interesting; that makes three bell housing types that have the same dowel location, ecotec, Quad4 and GM 60 degree. I don't know if the Quad4 is rotated though.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-16-2016).]
Here are the dimensions from the Ecotec transmissions. With this one you need to rotate it 16.82 degrees the dowel pins line up, which makes since with the engine and transmission being rotated 10 degrees from each other in stock form.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-16-2016).]
So the ecotec to metric dowels line up and the crank is centered. Dowels are the same size too. This will make the swap a lot easier and cheaper than the V8 bell. The template is an L61 block that I cut the back off with a sawzall and an LNF flex plate. I picked up an '02 V6 Firebird 4L60e with tq converter because the yard wouldn't pull the bell off, so they threw me a bone...I thought $125 for a 30k miles 4l60e was a decent deal so I just took it. If I stick with this tc I'll need the input shaft anyway. The pilot on the tc is same as ecotec at .825 and the bolt pattern is only slightly larger. I think i'll be able to elongate the holes on the eco flex and bolt it right up. Hard to get a pic of it but even the spacing between the flex and tc is ideal at less than 1/8". The engine is clocked wrong so the trans will have to be turned probably 16* as noted above. Thanks for the snappy responses. I will start a thread in the other cars section as I get farther along.
Interesting; that makes three bell housing types that have the same dowel location, ecotec, Quad4 and GM 60 degree.
Are you sure about that?
If that's the case, then - according to your earlier research - the HF V6 tranny (as uncommon as it is) has dowels that will line up, as well. Unless I'm missing something. By extension, this may open up other possibilities for that engine, too. The tranny pics that were posted in your thread sure seemed to place the dowels in different places, although that may have been an illusion. (Engine "rotation" notwithstanding.)
If that's the case, then - according to your earlier research - the HF V6 tranny (as uncommon as it is) has dowels that will line up, as well. Unless I'm missing something. By extension, this may open up other possibilities for that engine, too. The tranny pics that were posted in your thread sure seemed to place the dowels in different places, although that may have been an illusion. (Engine "rotation" notwithstanding.)
Quite sure; I machined a mandrel for the end of the LFX crank and slid the Quad4 housing over it and onto the dowels. Fits perfectly.
The issue for the LFX/HF FWD engine is the location of the thermostat housing at the rear of the block, which interferes with the top of most bellhousings. The Quad4 only needs a bit of trimming to clear, as shown in my thread. Makes this look pretty interesting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW...4-2-4L-/291710931023
The pictures in my thread don't show the transaxles at the same angle so there is a little illusion going on. Don't know about rotation but I'll be getting back to my project this winter, have decided to go ahead with it and run in a different racing series that is less restrictive.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-21-2016).]
Quite sure; I machined a mandrel for the end of the LFX crank and slid the Quad4 housing over it and onto the dowels. Fits perfectly.
The issue for the LFX/HF FWD engine is the location of the thermostat housing at the rear of the block, which interferes with the top of most bellhousings. The Quad4 only needs a bit of trimming to clear, as shown in my thread. Makes this look pretty interesting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW...4-2-4L-/291710931023
The pictures in my thread don't show the transaxles at the same angle so there is a little illusion going on. Don't know about rotation but I'll be getting back to my project this winter, have decided to go ahead with it and run in a different racing series that is less restrictive.
I'm not doubting you about the Quad 4 trans (thanks for that eBay link, BTW. The Beretta trans is kind of the way I've been leaning, as I alluded to in your other thread.) My question was regarding the Ecotec and GM Metric having the dowels in the same basic place, relative to each other, as the Quad 4. Some of the pics seem to place them at different angles, relative to each other and to the crank.
Also, what is your take on the 3.94 FDR, bolted to the LFX? Seems like it ought to make a hell of a hole shot, but will likely scream on the highway. But maybe the LFX will be happy with that. I have posted the Getrag 284 (as bolted to the 3.4 DOHC) ratios. (Since they're both DOHC V6s, it seems like a natural comparison.)
Beretta Quad 4.
1st 3.940 2nd 2.150 3rd 1.330 4th 0.920 5th 0.740
FDR 2.94
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Getrag 284 5-speed
1st 3.46 2nd 2.28 3rd 1.48 4th 1.09 5th 0.72
FDR 3.67
Doing the math... Looks like the 5th gear, times FDR, for the Quad 4 tranny, will be 2.92. Not great, but not bad. Workable, I think. (The 3.4 DOHC with its tranny, works out to 2.64.) It's gonna blow through 1st gear in a huge hurry, though.
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In the 2016 Camaro (admittedly, not an LFX, but still...)
Pretty sure those aren't the right gear ratios, think these are for the export 282; in the brackets are the other ratios available: 1: 3.77 (3.50) 2: 2.19 (2.05) 3: 1.38 4: 1.03 (0.94) 5: .80 (0.72) Final: 3.94 (3.61)
AFAIK the only third gear ratio available was 1.38, so the ratios listed in the ad don't appear to be correct. Someone up my way bought one of those ebay transaxles and swapped the bellhousings for his Fiero. I bought the old 282 and Quad4 bellhousing for spare parts through a friend. I'm trying to contact the guy and see if he can confirm the gear ratios.
I have an AY6 from a LFX Camaro, ratios are: 1: 4.48 2: 2.58 3: 1.63 4: 1.19 5: 1.00 6: 0.75
Basically a medium close ratio 4 speed if you ignore first and sixth.
I also missed your question about the 3.94 FDR for the LFX. I'm going to be racing it so I'm after close ratios and probably a top speed of 150 mph at 7000 rpm. That works out to about 3300 rpm at 70 mph, not bad but I suspect the LFX is quite capable of chugging along at 2000 rpm in a Fiero; that would be attainable with an F40 in 6th.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-22-2016).]
But it's a lot heavier car than a Fiero.)
