Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Trans change w/o cradle drop?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Trans change w/o cradle drop? by gem1138
Started on: 09-25-2016 12:50 PM
Replies: 21 (695 views)
Last post by: Raydar on 09-30-2016 10:02 PM
gem1138
Member
Posts: 631
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 12:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gem1138Send a Private Message to gem1138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 88 2.5 with the Isuzu MT2 and need to change the MT2. Can I do this without dropping the cradle?
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The short answer is that you can raise the car, support the engine from above, let the cradle swing down, and unbolt and remove the trans and drop it out the bottom. It's almost as much trouble as a cradle drop, but it can be done.
Assembly, as they say, is the reverse of disassembly.

There is not, to my knowledge, enough room to get the trans out from above.
IP: Logged
Jake_Dragon
Member
Posts: 32846
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 403
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The first time I dropped the cradle I was a little bit afraid of it
After the first time no hesitation after that only way to work on the transmission in my opinion
IP: Logged
phonedawgz
Member
Posts: 17091
From: Green Bay, WI USA
Registered: Dec 2009


Feedback score:    (23)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 290
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The first time I swapped a clutch, I did it with the engine in the car.

Second and every time after, I dropped the cradle. Much much easier.
IP: Logged
gem1138
Member
Posts: 631
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gem1138Send a Private Message to gem1138Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok. I did a search for a thread on dropping the cradle and didn't find a good one. One for an 88 2.5 would be best but beggars can't be choosers? One thing I did see is that everyone says it isn't as bad as you think.
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 05:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The real PITA, is finding a way to get the car high enough to roll the cradle out from underneath.
You can use jacks, and jack stands, or even a cherry picker.


It's basically...
Remove the decklid. Two 13mm bolts hold the hinge to each side of the decklid. Scribe or mark the hinges before removing. Do NOT remove the hinges from the hinge boxes on the firewall. There is also an electrical connector near the right hinge box. Unplug it.
Unplug the connectors from the ECM (behind the console) and push them through the firewall to the outside. Zip tie them to the top of the engine.
Drain the coolant. Easiest way is the two hex plugs in the coolant lines behind/under the doors.
Disconnect the fuel lines (2) and the coolant hoses (one right and one left.)
Disconnect the shifter cables and zip tie out of the way.
Remove the slave cylinder from the trans, and zip tie it out of the way. Leave the clutch hydraulic line connected.

You need to decide what you want to do with the suspension pieces. You can leave them attached to the cradle, but it makes it a lot harder to get the cradle out from under the car. (They snag on the body, and they make the cradle assembly very tall. Requires raising the car a bit higher.)
I usually do this...
Remove the parking brake cables from the calipers. You will need to loosen/disconnect them under the front rail of the cradle. Pull the main cable out of the right side of the cradle.
Remove the calipers and zip tie or bungee them out of the way. Leave the brake lines connected to them.
Remove the axle nuts, the long bolts, and the rear most trailing link bolts. Remove the three nuts from the tops of the struts, at the top of the shock towers.
You might have to whack the ends of the axles to unseat them. Then the strut/spring/knuckle will come out as an assembly.

With everything disconnected, I lower the rear of the car onto a furniture dolly that is centered under the cradle. Remove the four cradle bolts. The two in the back are threaded into "captive" nuts in the rear frame rail.
The two in the front go sideways through brackets and through the cradle. They are held with nuts.
I use floor jack under the front corners of the cradle to "unbind" the bolts so that they will slide out easily.

Once everything is disconnected and unbolted, you will need to raise the rear of the car off of the cradle. You can use floor jacks and a 4x4 under the rear of the floor, or use a cherry picker. (I loop a chain through the front rail of the trunk compartment, as a lifting point. Do NOT use the trunk latch hook. It looks convenient, but it's not strong enough.)
Some people remove the rear bumper cover and energy absorber, and loop a chain around the bumper bar. That works nicely.

I had an A-frame built. I bought a chain fall from Harbor Freight, and hung it from the A-frame. That's what I use to lift mine.

Once the car is high enough, you can roll the engine out from under. It's easier to roll it out the side, if you have room.
Note: I find it easier to park the front of the car on ramps before I do this. If you use ramps, be sure to block the front wheels so they can't roll off the ramps.

This was a trans swap I did. It'll maybe give you some ideas.
//www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-1-085296.html



IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 17909
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Deck lid removal isn't needed, haven't taken one off in years.....
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Deck lid removal isn't needed, haven't taken one off in years.....


In most cases it's not, but I find that it helps a bit. Especially if you have to maneuver a hoist into place above the engine.
If nothing else, it's one less thing to smack your head on. I'm skilled, that way.

YMMV.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-25-2016).]

IP: Logged
pmbrunelle
Member
Posts: 4373
From: Grand-Mère, Québec
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 62
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bite the bullet and figure a way of dropping the cradle that works for you. It really is the only way!

Raydar gave a good summary.

I built a wood frame to lift the rear of my Fiero. First, I remove the struts, and then I lift the car by the strut towers (safest lifting point IMO). Two 1/2"-13 threaded rods hold up the lifting beam.

As usual, I built a dolly to roll the cradle out once the car was lifted.

Here is my cradle drop setup (in French, but there are pictures):
http://www.fieromontreal.co...ex.php?topic=2325.75
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36247
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

...figure a way of dropping the cradle that works for you. It really is the only way!


Oh, I dunno about that.

I've tilted the cradle (down in the back) a couple times to change the clutch on my '84 duke and '88 Formula. Sure, dropping the cradle completely might make it easier to work on the engine/tranny once it's clear of the car... but if space to put the cradle (within a small/crowded garage for example) is a problem, just tilting the cradle to pull the tranny works fine. Heck, you don't even need to drain the coolant.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-25-2016).]

IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Oh, I dunno about that.

I've tilted the cradle (down in the back) a couple times to change the clutch on my '84 duke and '88 Formula.



I've done it too. Several times.
Usually after having forgotten about what a pain in the azz it is to do it that way.

But yeah... it's nice to not have to have anti-freeze leaking all over everything. (Especially important since I have dogs who are most curious.)

As always, YMMV.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36247
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2016 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

... it's nice to not have to have anti-freeze leaking all over everything. (Especially important since I have dogs who are most curious.)


As much as the raccoons and skunks and squirrels and neighborhood cats all checking out my backyard are a nuisance... yeah, I prefer not to poison them either.
IP: Logged
Jason88Notchie
Member
Posts: 1693
From: Elyria, Ohio, USA
Registered: Oct 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2016 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Jason88NotchieSend a Private Message to Jason88NotchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did an 88 Isuzu with the engine suspended. Not having to disconnect everything is the advantage. And I had limited garage space.
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 15139
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 328
Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2016 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My preference is to drop the cradle to change transmissions. Access to all the bolts and axles seems easier but there are those that feel more comfortable doing the job by supporting the engine, swinging the cradle down, removing wheelhouse, the strut and the axle. You may end up needing an alignment either way.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
Crytes
Member
Posts: 59
From: Clarksville
Registered: Aug 2015


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CrytesSend a Private Message to CrytesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just how high do you raise the care to clear the cradle?
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-28-2016 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

Just how high do you raise the care to clear the cradle?


With engine and everything on cradle still, about 6 feet I think.
IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 15139
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 328
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

Just how high do you raise the care to clear the cradle?


Dropped many a Fiero cradle. The car needs to be jacked up about 4' measured from the bottom of the cradle to the floor. We use a 2 post automotive lift , disconnect everything, lower the cradle down on a motorcycle lift ( that has wheels on it) and just pull everything out from under. Many guys have done the job without a lift. It seems very risky this way but it can be done on a concrete floor..

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
pmbrunelle
Member
Posts: 4373
From: Grand-Mère, Québec
Registered: Sep 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 62
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My cradle drop setup (as well as the raised Fiero) fits under the 8' ceiling of the garage.
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 17909
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Depending on the height of your dolly under the cradle, 38" from floor to bottom of lower frame rail is high enough if you come on of the driver side wheel well. I sit the cradle on my cherry picker legs, pick up the back of the car with the crane, support car on jack stands and a 4x4, and then roll the cradle out the side. My picker has swivel casters on all corners.
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's my setup. A-frame, hoist, ramps, and furniture dolly.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36247
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post09-28-2016 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Seeing Raydar's image above reminded me of pictures I had from seven years ago when I swapped an Isuzu into my '84 Fiero. This shows the "tilted cradle" method...



IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Raydar
Member
Posts: 40686
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 460
Rate this member

Report this Post09-30-2016 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


Seeing Raydar's image above reminded me of pictures I had from seven years ago when I swapped an Isuzu into my '84 Fiero. This shows the "tilted cradle" method...



I did essentially the same thing, the last time I changed a clutch.
The car was on jackstands, with ramps under the front. I used the A-frame to support the hoist (for the engine), and a come-along (to drop the trans out), but the idea was about the same. I used a length of 2x10 as a ramp, to help the trans to slide out behind the car.

Edit - I also removed my struts and knuckles, in one piece. I have found that the alignment stays the same if you don't separate the struts from the knuckles.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-30-2016).]

IP: Logged

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock