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3.6 liter High Feature I a Fiero by Daryl M
Started on: 09-07-2016 07:16 PM
Replies: 103 (2874 views)
Last post by: Daryl M on 12-07-2018 12:55 AM
Daryl M
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Report this Post09-07-2016 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Has anyone attempted putting a 3.6 liter High Feature from a late model Buick or Chevy in a Fiero? I am considering the swap, but would be interested in opinions from anyone that has considered it or done it.
Thanks,
Daryl M

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Report this Post09-07-2016 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There have been many threads about this on here, but so far nobody has done one.

The closest would be the Saab 2.8t (LP9 high feature engine) swap that bmwguru did on his car. I'm not sure if he's finished it yet though.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?

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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?


How cheap is "really cheap" exactly? And why is it so cheap?

The engine should fit fine in the Fiero engine bay. The biggest issue will be getting it tuned.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

$800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?

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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
$800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


You'll probably need or want to get the steering column, the radio, the tranny computer and the body computer. That stuff is usually all linked through VATS, and VIN, otherwise you'll end up paying someone with programming equipment to sort it out. If you can get all the required hardware from the donor car there shouldn't be a need to tune anything. Don't forget the gauge cluster and accelerator pedal. See if you can get the whole car.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-07-2016).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I believe that all of those items are there.

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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

$800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.

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Report this Post09-07-2016 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.


Yep, forgot all about those missing sensors.

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Report this Post09-07-2016 10:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtjoeSend a Private Message to gtjoeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.


Im pretty sure I have read that the bcm stuff can be removed from the high feature tune. There seems to be a few people putting these motors in miatas

link to a miata forum with a thread about a miata with a lfx installed http://www.v8miata.net/cars...fx-fresh-build-2511/

[This message has been edited by gtjoe (edited 09-07-2016).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-07-2016 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I just checked with the doner car owner. I can get all of the items I will need from the car for nearly nothing. Car was wreaked 2 years ago, but ran great prior to that. 302 hp , 265 lb/ft of torque should be sufficient.

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Report this Post09-07-2016 11:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Any suggestions about the merits of useing an aftermarket stand alone ecm? Also considering an F40 manual transmission. As you can guess, I am sitll in the planning stages of this project, so I am open to suggestions.

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Report this Post09-08-2016 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by gtjoe:
Im pretty sure I have read that the bcm stuff can be removed from the high feature tune. There seems to be a few people putting these motors in miatas

link to a miata forum with a thread about a miata with a lfx installed http://www.v8miata.net/cars...fx-fresh-build-2511/



Yes, I didn't say it couldn't be. I said that swapping the engine will require a lot of tuning work, and all of that hasn't been entirely fleshed out yet on a wide scale.

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Report this Post09-08-2016 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Any suggestions about the merits of useing an aftermarket stand alone ecm? Also considering an F40 manual transmission. As you can guess, I am sitll in the planning stages of this project, so I am open to suggestions.


For the F40 you will either need one from a Saab 2.8t manual car, or an adapter plate and moving the starter mount.

As for aftermarket ECM, none of the reasonably priced ones can do SIDI yet AFAIK. The LFX is a SIDI engine.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-08-2016 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Great feedback everyone, thanks. I haven't bought the engine/tranny yet, so I am not locked into it. I may also consider a Buick Regal 2.0 liter turbo. These donor cars are available at auction. Any feedback on this option?

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Report this Post09-08-2016 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Great feedback everyone, thanks. I haven't bought the engine/tranny yet, so I am not locked into it. I may also consider a Buick Regal 2.0 liter turbo. These donor cars are available at auction. Any feedback on this option?


The new 2.0 turbo is also a swap that has not actually been completed in a Fiero. It's also a SIDI engine.

Really, what are your goals for a swap in your car? Do you have the skills/time/space and/or money to do it? If you can't tune an ECU yourself and don't want to pay to have it done, you're better off looking at older engines from early-mid 90s, or buying something that comes as a kit. Even then though, you'll almost certainly need to do a bit of tuning.

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Report this Post09-08-2016 02:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for menderSend a Private Message to menderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have a 2012 Impala LFX engine ($800 Cdn) that is getting hooked up to an F23 with the Quad4 bellhousing pattern. Everything looks good but I haven't had time to finish it up, will get back at it once the snow flies up here.

ECU: I'm going to use just the stock ECU without any extra bits. I had mine set up by Will at Overkill, he's supposed to be the guru of these engines. Apparently this is the first one that he's done for a Fiero engine swap and I'll be sending him datalogs for further refinement once it's in the car and running. Should be interesting to see how the DBW and electronic pedal work out but Will's done a bunch of manual LFX Camaro tuning as well as LFX Impala tuning so I'm pretty sure he'll be on top of it. Cost was around $500 for the tune.
http://www.getoverkilled.ca/

What's the mileage on your engine? Mine had 12,000 miles and there was enough carbon on the backsides of the intake valves that I decided to take it apart and clean things up. As mentioned, it'll be getting a good catch can.

I suspect that the LFX/F23/Overkill combo will turn out to be very popular once a few of them are on the road.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post09-08-2016 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Mender, are you concerned about the strenth of the F23? Rated torque is 100 ft/lbs less than what the LFX makes. Also, is the bell housing bolt pattern of the LFX the same as the 2.0 liter Ecotec?

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Report this Post09-08-2016 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


Yep, its just that easy.

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Report this Post09-08-2016 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The GM high feature engine makes great torque and horsepower. In a Fiero it would prove to be a very good performer. The things that keep me away from doing this swap are the high number of required inputs that the PCM expects to see from the ABS, Body Control module, wheel sensors, gauges, gas tank pressure, VVT, DFI, traction control, electric steering and many of the other CAN inputs. Its also a drive by wire engine that uses a gas pedal module. If the PCM doesn't see all the required inputs then it goes into default mode. For this swap I would go with a cable operated throttle body and use a more friendly easy to program OBDII PCM like ones from the early Grand Prix 3800's. That is if you can figure out a way around the VVT. There is most likely a way to use the high feature PCM but AFAIK, it isn't heavily documented. I guess anything can be made to operate with anything but where do you find the forumula? Maybe with the GM stand alone PCM used for marine use.

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[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Mender, are you concerned about the strenth of the F23? Rated torque is 100 ft/lbs less than what the LFX makes. Also, is the bell housing bolt pattern of the LFX the same as the 2.0 liter Ecotec?


If you want a manual trans, you're basically going to have to ignore the stated torque ratings. FWIW, people are running 600+ HP 3800 turbo cars with the F23 just fine.

As for the bell housing, no, the High Feature V6 is a unique bell pattern. The Ecotec is yet another different bell pattern. The F23 mender is referring to though, is one that came paired with a Quad 4, I think. This pattern is also different, but close enough that it's theoretically possible to make it work with some fancy fabrication of brackets.

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Report this Post09-08-2016 06:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Mender, et al...

I am also considering this swap. You're going about it about the same way that I had planned, except that I'll be using a Beretta Getrag instead of the F23. (I posted in your LFX/F23 thread. Thanks for any info that you have shared.)
I may try to do the PCM myself. The Impala engine, with a manual Camaro tune. The worst that will happen is that it won't work.
I already have the victim, errrr.... car. It's an 88 coupe.
I won't likely be starting the swap until spring at the earliest. We are planning a move, and I don't want to take another car apart in our basement before that happens.

And yeah... the intake valve coking is something that has crossed my mind as well. Did you have to remove the heads? Or did you just remove the intake?
I've read accounts of people just blasting the ports with walnut shells, but that sounds like a bad idea, unless the valve is closed, and you can ensure that all of the debris can be vacuumed out. Afterwards, catch cans were highly recommended.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-08-2016 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for menderSend a Private Message to menderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I took the heads off and disassembled them, glass beaded the valves, checked the guides (good of course), put in new seals, head gaskets, head bolts. I ported and blended the entire air path through the engine, from and including the throttle body and intake to the exhaust flange. I also baffled the oil pan and resealed it, after checking the bearings (new connecting rod bolts).

I build racing engines so I have all the equipment needed, and I consider working through a new-to-me engine fun!

The walnut shell thingy works, just make sure the valves are closed and you clean up thoroughly after you're done.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 09-08-2016).]

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Report this Post09-09-2016 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for menderSend a Private Message to menderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?


Centreline of crank to top of engine is 19.5".

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Report this Post09-12-2016 06:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

There have been many threads about this on here, but so far nobody has done one.

The closest would be the Saab 2.8t (LP9 high feature engine) swap that bmwguru did on his car. I'm not sure if he's finished it yet though.


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y

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Report this Post09-12-2016 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y


Nice! Hope it makes good numbers and you can enjoy it soon. Would love to see video of it on the road.

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Report this Post09-14-2016 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for iluvsd619Click Here to Email iluvsd619Send a Private Message to iluvsd619Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So what is the secret on this electronic solution to adapt this engine? Not much info out there on getting it to work. These motors are finding their way into miatas and classics. I called v8 roadsters (miatas) today. They want 1300 for their harness and ecu. He said they are making tons of them and they are behind. About 6 weeks to get a set. He said it should work in a Fiero. Just FYI.

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Report this Post09-14-2016 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for iluvsd619Click Here to Email iluvsd619Send a Private Message to iluvsd619Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y



This is awesome.

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Report this Post09-15-2016 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y




This one linked

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-15-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:




This one linked



That one was when I was running the stock Saab ecu, but I couldn't get the ecu to control the mixture and throttle the way the AEM does. It became a new car with the AEM ecu

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Report this Post09-15-2016 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.



The AEM will work with the DBW and VVT. I used an Infinity-6 and made the harness myself. A lot of the sensors are AEM specific and it wasn't bad to do. I did have to swap the Saab VR crank sensor for the Camaro 3.6 hall effect type to make it work.

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Patrick
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Report this Post09-15-2016 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I couldn't get the video to embed.


You're a genius with mechanical stuff... yet you shoot a vertical video ... and then can't figure out how to embed it.

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dobey
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Report this Post09-15-2016 03:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
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Originally posted by Patrick:
and then can't figure out how to embed it.


I'm pretty sure the embedding wasn't working before, because the video was set to only be visible to those who had the URL. It seems that changed (I don't see a warning on YouTube about this when I view the video any more), which likely 'fixed' the embedding problem.

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Report this Post09-15-2016 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.


I think only the 2016+ Gen IV High Feature engines have cylinder deactivation. Most of the higher end consumer grade aftermarket ECM solutions, like the AEM Infinity or Haltech Elite can handle both DOD and VVT, I think.

The only big thing that most of the solutions in this range still can't do, is direct injection, because the injectors are so different, electronically, from traditional SFI injectors, and from the rest of the electronics in the system. I'm pretty sure that at least Haltech and AEM are both working on solutions to be able to run direct injection systems, though.

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Patrick
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Report this Post09-15-2016 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I'm pretty sure the embedding wasn't working before, because the video was set to only be visible to those who had the URL. It seems that changed (I don't see a warning on YouTube about this when I view the video any more), which likely 'fixed' the embedding problem.


Nope... no Kewpie doll for you.

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

You're a genius with mechanical stuff... yet you shoot a vertical video ... and then can't figure out how to embed it.



new phone....lol

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Report this Post09-15-2016 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CrytesSend a Private Message to CrytesEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?

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quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?


The Saab F40 from the 2.8t.

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quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?


Check Mender's thread.
He's found a way to adapt a Quad 4 trans to work.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/137446.html

I am considering the LFX with a Quad 4 Getrag. Won't be anytime soon, however.

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