I've been having issues with my car not wanting to go into 1st or reverse for a while. I decided to do something about it, and picked up a new slave cylinder. Put it in today and bled it, and... now I can't get it into any gear at all. If I start the car in 1st gear, it moves a bit. It creeps forward like an auto. Not like a complete clutchless start, but I can't get it into gear at all once the car is started...
I was thinking it could be a different sized slave, but I just measured and they are in fact the same. This leads me to believe that it's a bleeding issue. The pedal feels alright, but I must still have air in the system.
Just checked, getting 5/8" of travel.
If you need any more information, just let me know. I appreciate the help.
Well, I'll tell you right now... that's not enough. For the Isuzu, at least an inch of travel is required.
I suspect there's either air still in the clutch hydraulic system, the clutch pedal is bent, or the banjo connected to the pedal is bent and/or too short (as I've seen them different lengths).
Does your clutch pedal sit higher than your brake pedal while at rest? Should be very easy to see.
The clutch is visibly slightly higher than the brake. This banjo on the pedal is something I haven't looked at yet... I'll check that out now. What should I be looking for? Bends?
Edit: it's not bent. And being that it worked decently beforehand, or at least, better than now, I wouldn't imagine it's too short.
[This message has been edited by I_N_J (edited 06-24-2016).]
If your system was working better before the swap, then it sounds more likely that air is still in the system. Fiero clutch hydraulics are notoriously bad for air getting trapped. There are numerous clutch bleed procedure threads on PFF.
I certainly hope it was one of Rodney's dual-seal slaves.
...
It wasnt.... I wasn't really aware that this was such a common issue. I just got one off of rockauto...
My clutch pedal isn't bent in the way your picture ahows, so I guess it's alright. I guess tonight I'll look more for bleeding procedures, and take another Crack at it tomorrow.
I wasn't really aware that this was such a common issue.
It's not as much of an issue now since Rodney Dickman introduced his dual-seal slaves, but I'd say that air in the clutch hydraulic system has been one of the most discussed Fiero bugaboos here since PFF started 17 years ago. It was actually the reason I joined this site back in 1999... I was so fed up with constantly needing to bleed the clutch in my first Fiero!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-25-2016).]
My version of one-man gravity bleeding. No pumping or trying to depress the slave pushrod.
Lift the left front tire off the ground. With a fresh can of DOT3 fluid opened, fill the reservoir to the top. Leave the caps off the can and reservoir. Loosen the slave bleeder until fluid flows out. While it flows, rap on the slave with a heavy tool to cause air bubbles stuck to the slave bore to move to the bleeder end. Watch the reservoir and top off before more air is drawn in. On the 3rd refill, do the same but close the bleeder when fluid level drops to the FULL mark. Replace the caps on the can and reservoir.
I basically do what you do... except I park on a slight slope with the front higher, and I use a Fiero jack to tilt the driver's side up a bit to ensure that the bleeder end is the highest point of the slave.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-25-2016).]
With a previous Fiero, I used that often when on the road. Park at a 45 degree angle on a steep slope accomplishes the same thing. Even driving the left front wheel up over a parking lot curbing will work.
The bleeder is already the highest point of the system. You want the rear wheel on the ground, front wheel off the ground so the MC is higher, allowing fluid to flow downhill to the slave. It will carry bubbles with the flow of fluid. Raising the drivers side tips the bleeder end of the slave upward to let air move from the piston end to the bleeder end when you rap on it.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-25-2016).]
I did the gravity bleeding, and it helped, but it's not perfect yet. Now it's right where it was before I put the new one in. I can't get it into reverse unless I put it into 5th first and jam it into reverse really quickly. I don't think there's any air left in the lines, I think it's still in the slave. I'm going to try compressing the slave all the way with a clamp, then gravity bleeding. Does that sound like a good idea?
Raising the car as I described and tapping on the slave will remove the bubbles in the slave. I find it difficult to work around the heat shield to depress the pushrod with 1 hand while operating the bleeder with the other.
For what it is worth, clamping the slave, as you plan to do and then regular bleeding, i.e., using the clutch pedal worked perfectly for me. I would expect gravity bleeding would work just as well. I also unbolted the slave and let it hang while bleeding so the rod was the highest point and any bubbles would rise up out of the slave housing.
I'm going to try compressing the slave all the way with a clamp, then gravity bleeding. Does that sound like a good idea?
With my 5-spd Formula (Getrag) I don't need to compress the slave when doing the gravity bleed, but it does seem to help with the swapped 5-spd Isuzu in my '84. However, instead of using a clamp, I use vice-grips on the slave pushrod and pull it towards me while standing on the driver's side of the car. (It compresses quite easily.) I then slip a small wedged piece of wood between the end of the pushrod and the clutch fork to hold the pushrod in place during the gravity bleed.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-25-2016).]
I couldn't really get the car out of my garage, so I compressed it and vacuum bled it. I still can't get it into gear... I don't know where the air is. I gravity bled almost a whole bottle of brake fluid through it... where else could the air be?
I compressed it and vacuum bled it. I still can't get it into gear... I don't know where the air is.
Immediately after you do the bleeding, are you getting any further travel on the slave pushrod?
It's possible that air is being drawn into the system somewhere as soon as you try using the clutch, or possibly even as you're doing the vacuum bleed. In the bad old days, I had better luck pushing the fluid through the system.
Going from my own experience, I'd never use/buy a single-seal slave ever again. However, there is a kit you can buy from Rodney that is just the dual-seal piston assembly to use in the current slave you recently bought.
Another thing to check... Return to the clutch pedal. Disconnect the banjo from the pedal. If you can now pull the pedal up closer towards you, then you're not getting the full stroke of the master cylinder (probably due to something being bent and/or the banjo being too short).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-25-2016).]
Immediately after you do the bleeding, are you getting any further travel on the slave pushrod?
It's possible that air is being drawn into the system somewhere as soon as you try using the clutch, or possibly even as you're doing the vacuum bleed. In the bad old days, I had better luck pushing the fluid through the system.
Going from my own experience, I'd never use/buy a single-seal slave ever again. However, there is a kit you can buy from Rodney that is just the dual-seal piston assembly to use in the current slave you recently bought.
Another thing to check... Return to the clutch pedal. Disconnect the banjo from the pedal. If you can now pull the pedal up closer towards you, then you're not getting the full stroke of the master cylinder (probably due to something being bent and/or the banjo being too short).
I got a little bit more air out of the system, and now it's right about where it was before I put the new slave in. I can drive it alright, but it sometimes has trouble going into reverse and first. Thinking about it, I do think that the clutch pedal could come slightly up if the banjo were disconnected. I'm not sure how a smaller one would've gotten in there... but maybe. I'm thinking that my master cylinder might be going bad. For now though, the car will work. I'll look more into the banjo and master cylinder this week, and might pick up a dual seal piston as well. But the car drives, so for this weekend, I'm done working on it.
Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it. And I'll probably be back soon... I think I'll pick up a dual seal piston and possibly a new master cylinder, and just kinda replace everything. I'm sure it won't hurt to do away with the 30 year old master.
Is there anything wrong with ordering a master off of rockauto? Or is there one in particular that I should get?
[This message has been edited by I_N_J (edited 06-25-2016).]
If pumping the clutch pedal gives you more release, you still have air in the system. If pumping the clutch pedal makes no difference, look elsewhere.
Pumping the clutch pedal will compress air in the lines/cylinder, if it remains. It is only a test, not a fix.
Pumping the pedal does not make things better. I guess I'll pick up a dual seal piston and a new master cylinder and try to get it working right. I checked, and the clutch pedal's resting position is limited by the banjo, and not the stop, so something's not right there.
I have a speed bleeder screw on my slave cylinder . They are made for one man bleeding of brake calipers .They have a valve that prevents air from being sucked back in while you are pushing the clutch peddle up and down .You just unscrew the speed bleeder and hook a piece of tygon to the bleeder and when it looks like all the bubbles are gone , tighten the speed bleeder .Jacking the car up as others have described helps the process .
Thinking about it, I do think that the clutch pedal could come slightly up if the banjo were disconnected. I'm not sure how a smaller one would've gotten in there...
I've discovered over the years that master clutch cylinders simply come with different length banjos... depending on who makes them I suppose.
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Originally posted by I_N_J:
Is there anything wrong with ordering a master off of rockauto? Or is there one in particular that I should get?
IMO, you should either make an adjustable banjo, as discussed in This thread... or if you're planning to buy a master cylinder, get Rodney's which comes with an adjustable banjo.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-26-2016).]
IMO, you should either make an adjustable banjo, as discussed in This thread... or since you're planning to buy a master cylinder, get Rodney's which comes with an adjustable banjo.
This is a really good point... I kinda dismissed it at first, but I think I kind of am putting the mystery together now...
When I took the old slave cylinder out, there was a socket being used as a spacer on the end of the push rod. This tells me that the previous owner was having clutch problems. If he were having clutch problems, he may have replaced the MC. It does look very new, but up until now, I'd just assumed that was because the hood area is mostly sealed from the elements. If he replaced it, it very well could have a different lengthed banjo, as you said, which would definitely explain why my clutch pedal doesn't rise all the way, which would give me the lack of travel which is causing my clutch issues.
I'll stop at Ace tomorrow and pick up a coupler, and make myself an adjustable banjo. Thinking now, I'm pretty confident that if I can get that extra pedal travel, my issues will be solved.
Thankyou for that advice. This all makes sense now.
That's just one of the great things about used cars... you have to play detective to figure out what went on where before you got it.
When I took the old slave cylinder out, there was a socket being used as a spacer on the end of the push rod. This tells me that the previous owner was having clutch problems...
Yep.
You're going to love driving this Fiero a whole lot more when the clutch issues are properly resolved. Keep us appraised of your progress.
So is the slave pushrod about 5 5/8 inches long. With a socket on it sounds like they were using the wrong one. Replace the slave pushrod with the correct one first.
So is the slave pushrod about 5 5/8 inches long. With a socket on it sounds like they were using the wrong one. Replace the slave pushrod with the correct one first.
I didn't measure, but without the socket it fits and works fine. Plenty of room to move more as well. I think the guy just didn't understand how hydraulics work, and that adding a spacer wouldn't change the travel distance.
I'll double check when I go to modify the master cylinder banjo, but It currently drives just like it did before replacing the slave, without the socket, so I think it's fine.
I made the banjo adjustable, then opened it until the clutch pedal hit the stop, and it was actually too far... When I got like an inch off of the floor, it got easier to push, and the clutch wouldn't even start to engage until a little over an inch off of the floor. I dialed it back so that now I can shift into reverse with no issues with the pedal about 3/8" off of the floor. I put it so that the strange cutoff where it got easier to push is right at the floor, and I love it. The shifting effort is less now, and it just slides willingly into whatever gear I put it in
And best of all... I can put it into first or reverse at a complete stop with no issues at all!
Thanks a ton for the help guys, I really appreciate it. I would have never thought to check the MC banjo on my own....
I would have never thought to check the MC banjo on my own....
