Took the 88 GT in for smog today for the first time since I have owned it. The smog technician told me he couldn't do it because it had been modified with a Holley throttle body. I bought it 2 years ago just the way it sits today and it passed smog at that time. The seller had it smogged as a routine part of the sale. This was also in California, but a different shop in a different town if that matters. I should mention that the seller had swapped out the engine with a 3.4L from a 94 Camaro. Looks exactly the same except for the chrome plenum instead of the red engraved one. But again, He had it successfully smogged when I bought it. Maybe the chrome plenum peaked his interest on possible modifications??
I also have an 87 GT and I never noticed any difference in the appearance. I told the guy it was stock that way and he said I would have to provide proof from a dealer that the Holley was stock on the car when sold.
The car also has aftermarket headers which he also called me out on. This was also the way I bought it but he is requiring some sort of sticker or cert that it meets California requirements.
Help! Anyone got any info that can help me out here???
------------------ John Wayne as John Bernard Books in The Shootist... " I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
My rides... 1988 GT with a 3.4L V6 automatic 2006 Harley Sportster 'cause I love the twisties on two wheels or four.
The exhaust header is another issue. You will need comments from California Fiero owners. I live in a state where everything is legal.
Thanks Gall757...
[/size]So can anyone help on the headers situation? [size=2]
They look like pictures I have seen of the Fiero Store Sprint headers although I don't see them on their website. (I've been trying to call them for information for a half an hour but they never pick up the phone. Just a recording about calling during business hours) I'm hoping to find out that they meet the California specs.
To the best of my knowledge, you're hosed on the headers. Nobody makes a California legal one - you'll need the factory manifolds. The throttle body bit is hilarious, though - you got an ignorant smog tech. I would try another smog shop. That said, it's not hard to understand his skepticism, especially given he did find headers. Personally, I would strongly consider getting rid of that chrome. Nothing says "look closer" than a nicely chromed engine. Chances are with a less obvious intake they wouldn't question the throttle body and they wouldn't question the headers. If it generally looks stock, they assume it is. A nice trick which I hate to even mention is getting everything on the exhaust side ceramic coated grey or anthracite. Helps stuff blend into the background. I've been considering some WCF logs in boring old grey as I think they'd be close enough to not attract attention.
Actually, ALL Fieros came with Holley Throttle Bodies as the only stock unit. All 4 cylinder and V6's from 84-88. The only difference is the 4 cylinders were Throttle Body Injected and the V6's were Multi-Port Injected.
If it passed smog testing with the previous owner, go back to his testing station if it's close enough. Might even be worth a weekend drive if it's cheaper than changing out the headers for a stock exhaust.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-01-2016).]
You will need a C.A.R.B sticker under the decklid referencing the headers if they are legal here in California. If they were not legal for California, you're screwed and have to replace them with the stock headers. Even for the MSD ignition coils, I believe they come with a C.A.R.B decal for California.
[/size]So can anyone help on the headers situation? [size=2]
They look like pictures I have seen of the Fiero Store Sprint headers although I don't see them on their website. (I've been trying to call them for information for a half an hour but they never pick up the phone. Just a recording about calling during business hours) I'm hoping to find out that they meet the California specs.
Yeah, the Sprints are gone from the FS website, wow. They were a nice (albeit expensive) option to the stock manifolds for those of us in the other 49. They show up used on the Mall & ebay from those who eventually went on to an engine swap.
Actually, ALL Fieros came with Holley Throttle Bodies as the only stock unit. All 4 cylinder and V6's from 84-88. The only difference is the 4 cylinders were Throttle Body Injected and the V6's were Multi-Port Injected.
If it passed smog testing with the previous owner, go back to his testing station if it's close enough. Might even be worth a weekend drive if it's cheaper than changing out the headers for a stock exhaust.
Nope, the 4 cylinders had TBI's made by GM Rochester. 84-86 4 cylinders had the 300 Series TBI, 87-88 had the 700 Series TBI. Holley made an aftermarket TBI to replace the earlier 300 Series, Holley P/N 500-1.
Rochester 300 Series
Rochester 700 Series
Holley 500-1
V6 Fieros all came with a stock Holley throttlebody.
I would tell OP to try another shop and hope they're less observant. The place I took mine to was a STAR station, but had apparently never seen a Fiero before. If it PASSES smog, who cares where the parts came from? Just means the header manufacturer didn't have to bribe CARB to get a sticker. My federal emissions Fiero passed California Enhanced Smog Testing no problem.
I have the 3.4 F-body conversion in my 85 SE V6; It has always passed smog- But I have a guy who doesn't ask wrong questions....The headers may not be certified- But they probably have little to no affect on smog testing/actual smog control.....If the tester doesn't spot them, they are not a problem, but if the tester does notice them, then you're in trouble.....I know of two sources of headers- The Fiero store and West Coast Fiero....You can call both of them so You can Identify which you have, then ask the supplier if they are CA certifiable.
If you have problems with this situation, go to a Junk yard and pick up a set of stock headers and bolt them on during your smog checks- They are only once every two years.
All of GMs lines came with chrome valve covers depending on the model,
My 67 firebird had chrome valve covers, air cleaner, and I think even the master cylinder cap was chrome if I remember right. All the Pontiac line back then had that as ether an option or came in the engine package back then. the GTOs had it. Even the Camaros had the same options as well as the corvettes of that era. The headers, no, not that I remember, as far as being chromed anyway. But just being chromed does not affect anything as far as smog goes anyway.
Find another inspection place with maybe someone not just out of ASE or WTF ever class they took to get the job. I hate those guys, all they know about are the newest cars because that's all they work on today, now isn't it. if he refused to test it because of the way it looked he is an idiot, he should have hooked it up and tested it, then if it failed, fail you, if it passed he should have passed you. We don't have emissions testing here in Maine, matter of fact for the Fiero if it is over 25 years old we register them as antiques and they don't have to be inspected at all, even for safety items. mainly because most cars that old the guys who do the inspection have never even seen one, never mind worked on one.
Look at J Leno's cars he drives all the time, just how would he get a Stanley steamer to pass, CA emissions.
Find another place to get it done.
As others have already said the Holley was factory installed on the V6 Fiero, my 86 SE has one, my 84 4 cyl. does not. Edit to add,
If questioned about the chrome valve covers and throttle body tell them you just had the original parts chromed, but what ever you do, do not tell them the engine is not the 2.8, they might have fits about that. Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 06-01-2016).]
Nope, the 4 cylinders had TBI's made by GM Rochester. 84-86 4 cylinders had the 300 Series TBI, 87-88 had the 700 Series TBI. Holley made an aftermarket TBI to replace the earlier 300 Series, Holley P/N 500-1.
Rochester 300 Series
Rochester 700 Series
I will swear that I saw HOLLEY on the 88 Duke Throttle Body. I was so positive that I went out and took the breather off to see.
Thanks for the kick in the butt and setting me straight.
The situation with CA smog testing is that if they see a mod, they cannot predict if it's going to be ok outside of the testing they are doing...That is why you have the CA Smog certification for parts that will work properly across the load/rpm range....Interestingly, I did the 3.4 swap-out before GM came out with the blanket CA Cert on the 3.4 long block being able to be swapped into 2.8/3.1 cars...But technically, it is certified...Just don't volunteer info- especially if it's not necessary!...Which it is not. No one doing BAR testing would be able to identify the different engine blocks. And I doubt that they will be able to tell the dif between stock headers and custom- Unless they have a big sign on them; I swapped a 5.0 into a 73 Mustang in the 90s and had to use the first set of JBA 5.0/old Mustang swap headers- They had a big plate on them IDing them...But they were certified for those swaps- For once CA was smart- Obviously, those newer engines are going to run cleaner- even with mods....And they also didn't require Cats because of the danger of car fires on cars not designed for cats. They must have made a mistake and allowed someone with an actual working brain into the CA govt.......They've probably hunted him down and burned him at the stake.
what about wrapping the headers with heat wrap in a way that it covers the whole thing or some kind of metal heat shield to cover them so you don't see the individual pipes coming out of each cylinder wall plus it would make it look less noticable and they probably won't be able to tell what is stock or not?
I took it in for smog to a different shop today. I've had routine work done there before on family cars, and couple of my GT's, but never a smog check because I can usually find a better deal elsewhere.
One of the mechanics recognized the car just as I was driving in and gave me a big wave and a shout out. He had done an oil change on this car some time back. Probably why he got the job ticket for the smog check. I waited in the waiting room while he did the check and I was chewing rocks the whole time. I could hear them revving it up during the test (it's louder than stock) and it seemed like it took a really long time. I was just glad they didn't fail it outright for the headers but I guess it just wasn't noticed. The mechanic finally pulled the car out and came to talk to me. Not a good sign... Usually they just take the work order to the front desk.
He tells me it passed. Great! But he wanted to explain the results. It passed the first 4 tests great but the last two, the NOX tests barely made it. In fact one number was a single digit below the max. And the other was exactly the same number as the max allowed. Apparently a tie is a pass so I just squeeked through.
He suggested that before the next time I check the EGR valve, have the injectors cleaned and come in with a full tank of 92 octane. I'll be taking that advice for sure. Thankfully I won't have to go through that again for another two years.
And thanks for all the helpful comments and ideas you guys. I really appreciate it!
------------------ John Wayne as John Bernard Books in The Shootist... " I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
My rides... 1988 GT with a 3.4L V6 automatic 2006 Harley Sportster 'cause I love the twisties on two wheels or four.
[This message has been edited by Rsvl-Rider (edited 06-07-2016).]
Great news! Amazing what a little laziness on the tech's part can do for you. Or, put another way, amazing how much a PITA an ignorant tech is.
I have BTDT with the perpetual revving. It means the computer either can't get a reliable read or the reading is very close to the limits (either side) and it's being done over to get a more clear result. Years ago I had a Saab that was revving on the dyno for what seemed like 20 minutes before it eventually came back the same - NOx, right on the limit. Lucky!
Skip the advice on the 92 octane - way back when gas stations used to put the good additives in the high octane gas but several years ago California passed a law stating they could not use that to "trick" you into using higher octane, more expensive gas. All high octane gas will do is cost you more - it won't help with emissions in any way. If you want something in the fuel to help with emissions, pour a mess of alcohol in there. Lower combustion temps will help reduce NOx output.
My advice - which is worth every penny you'll pay for it - is get started on that work now. Go through the EGR system, make sure your fuel system (injectors, pump, filter) are to spec, and use a high quality fuel ("Top Tier") or run some sort of additive to help clean up in-cylinder carbon deposits. Work on that now, so in two years you know everything is to spec. If it still fails - which it might - you'll need a new cat. I smog three '80s cars every single year (no joke - I have six) and the lesson I've learned is don't delay. Sucks when that smog test creeps on you and all that deferred maintenance results in your car revving up and down on the dyno.
Couldn't you just get a c.a.r.b sticker from some other headers and slap it on the deck lid? You got 2 years to find one.
quote
Originally posted by MarkS:
Yeah, the Sprints are gone from the FS website, wow. They were a nice (albeit expensive) option to the stock manifolds for those of us in the other 49. They show up used on the Mall & ebay from those who eventually went on to an engine swap.
BR's,
Mark
I am pretty sure I got the last set ever made. They sent me a bad set, I made them fix it, then they told me that they couldn't be made the same way anymore, something about the jig, or at least the is what the manufacture told them.
