First off the master and slave cylinders are new and I do have Rodney's double seal kit in the slave. With a clear hose connected to the bleeder valve I see no air bubbles when bleeding. I'm working with an 88 with getrag and with my research I have learned that the pushrod at the slave cylinder should travel 3\4 in and mine does. It has all new clutch and the fidanza aluminum flywheel installed. At first after bleeding system it shifted fine for about 15 min of driving or less and then rebled and same. Pretty sure I have correct length rod in the slave but haven't double checked yet. The only two possible solutions I can come up with is needing longer rod or grinding down the bracket so that the slave sits closer to the clutch throw arm. Any thoughts?
The rod is the one that came with the new slave so unless it came with the wrong one it should be fine. When I got it I put Rodney's piston in. So should be correct one but lengthening it may help. I'm thinking maybe differences in new clutch and flywheel might be causing me issues.
I removed the slave from the transmission and attached steering wheel puller to the front of the slave cylinder. I then threaded the puller bolt in to compress the slave piston all the way down and rebled the system. The benefit to doing it like this is that your not trying to bleed air out of the entire slave cylinder. Also, once bled you can tell if there is any air remaining in the system because the pedal will be spongy. Remove the puller and reinstall the slave.
The clutch worked great after bleeding the system with his method.
[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 05-19-2016).]
My clutch is the one that seajai just did this on. We fought with it for three evenings before he suggested we do this.
When the piston was compressed in with the puller and I pressed on the pedal after bleeding the system, the pedal would move down the tiniest bit, and then stop hard, like I had just pushed it against a rock.
Once the clutch was like that, we removed the puller bolt and let the slave pull fluid in from the master (while keeping it full).
Finally got to this. Bled it through a couple reservoirs worth of fluid. Had clear hose connected to bleeder valve and could see fluid coming out. Definitely no air in there. Still no difference though. What gets me is it is moving 3\4 inch which is what seems to be the correct amount of movement from what I have researched. I'm at a loss on this one.
Guess there must be air in there though because I can press the piston into the slave cylinder by hand all the way end which is strange unless I'm pressing it back in to the reservoir. I'll check that.
Got a second pair of eyes out there and that just pushes flood pack into reservoir. Gonna have to stick with my previous statement and say there is no air in system at this point.
Is your clutch pedal hitting the floor when trying to disengage the clutch? If it is, it's possible your pedal (and/or banjo) is bent and/or the banjo is too short (as I've discovered there is a variation in banjo lengths). And the banjo has been installed with the loop up, right?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2016).]
Guess there must be air in there though because I can press the piston into the slave cylinder by hand all the way end which is strange unless I'm pressing it back in to the reservoir. I'll check that.
Compressing the slave piston will just push the fluid back into the master cylinder reservoir (the same way it does when you push a caliper piston back in during a brake job).
You should compress the slave piston all the way prior to bleeding. Bleed the system. Now leaving the piston fully compressed check the clutch pedal feel. If it's firm with almost no travel than I'd say you have all the air out and your problem lies elsewhere, if it feels soft, retry bleeding and recheck the feel.
I remember when installing master I wasn't sure which way the loop faced or whether it mattered. I'll go check that. And yes the pedal goes all the way down to the floor.
So loop was down. I turned it over but didn't make any difference. Well if one or the other is bent I could just lengthen the banjo. I can cut it and thread it to make it adjustable.
I have seen clutch master cylinders with supplied banjos that are shorter than others. I've remedied this by making my own adjustable banjo (similar to what Rodney Dickman sells). This is done by cutting it in half and threading the banjo rod and then using a 5/16"x18 coupler.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2016).]
Just so I can be sure does anyone know what the travel distance or distance from floor board the pedal should be. Also Patrick you said you have seen variations in banjo length. Do you know what those lengths are? Thinking about it changing the length doesn't seem like it would help if the pedal is bent because I'm still only going to get the same amount of push til it hits the floor.
...changing the length doesn't seem like it would help if the pedal is bent because I'm still only going to get the same amount of push til it hits the floor.
No, that's not correct. If the pedal is bent (it's actually the mount for the banjo that bends), then you can't get the full throw before the pedal hits the floor. If the banjo length is maximized, then the pedal is raised further from the floor and the throw is increased. The trick is to extend the banjo as far as possible without preloading the master cylinder (as the pedal can only be raised so high before it hits a stop). Keep in mind though that there are some clutches that actually lose some of their disengagement if the throw is too much, so be vigilant when extending the banjo.
How high does your clutch pedal currently sit at rest? Normally, it should sit about a half inch or so so above the brake pedal. If you disconnect the banjo from your pedal and the pedal can be pulled up towards you more, then you're not getting the full throw possible.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-24-2016).]
I could be wrong but it seemed to me the pedal was all the way as far up as it would go even with the banjo disconnected it would not pull up farther. I'll have to double check that when I get home.
So the clutch pedal is as far up as is allowed and banjo is full extended. Pedal seems to sit about 1/2 in above brake. Tried longer slave rod by about 1/4 of an inch and no change. At this point I will bleed system once more just to be absolutely sure there is no air and if that don't work I might try a new master or rebuild kit. Master has been on it for awhile but never got much use since the car has been in build mode for so many years. The slave is new with Rodney's double seal piston. Might try the original seal in that if I still have it.
Not to beat a dead horse, but when I suffered through my low clutch pedal miseries, the clutch pedal finally ended up a full inch above the break pedal.
Take one last look: make sure that when the pedal swings up it is stopped by hitting a metal bracket and not by the plunger on a switch! In my case the cruise control switch was adjusted such that the pedal was stopped by the switch and that prevented it from swinging up fully. You also can try this to check on the switch limiting issue: Just pull back HARD on the clutch pedal....if the plunger is adjusted too long, that will reset it (thanks for that info, Ogre!).
The issue is that the clutch doesn't disengage fully. The height of the pedal being stopped by the switches won't affect the fact that pushing the pedal doesn't allow the car to shift gears.
Compress the slave cylinder's piston all the way in and hold it using a C-clamp so that it can't move. Bleed the air out of the system, and then tighten the bleeder.
Get in and press the clutch pedal until it stops. You shouldn't get more than 3/4 to 1 inch of movement at the most before it can't move any more. If it is spongy, you have air in the line. If it compresses, you have a leak. If it is solid and the pedal does not drop down any further, even when holding for a period of time, then remove the C-clamp and let the piston extend.
The issue is that the clutch doesn't disengage fully. The height of the pedal being stopped by the switches won't affect the fact that pushing the pedal doesn't allow the car to shift gears.
Yes and no. The master only allows fluid to move from the bowl into the line when the piston is fully retracted. If the pedal/banjo is always slightly depressed the bleed hole is always covered.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Those are great checks with the slave compressed....new ones to me, too! Now, as to the height of the clutch pedal not affecting clutch release....well that just turns out not to be the case: If the pedal cannot swing fully back, then the stroke of the master is less (fewer degrees of rotation around the pedal pivot shaft by the pedal), and less stroke in the master means less stroke at the slave and the clutch fails to disengage fully.
Yes and no. The master only allows fluid to move from the bowl into the line when the piston is fully retracted. If the pedal/banjo is always slightly depressed the bleed hole is always covered.
That is a very valid point and I was unaware of that. Though, the OP has stated they were able to bleed fluid through the system, so that tells me the pedal is coming up high enough to allow the fluid to move from the bowl into the line.
imac, in response to your post, this is true, but my clutch is fully disengaged two inches above the floor, give or take a tiny amount. A half inch of travel isn't going to be the make or break unless you have air in the line. Check your clearances and make sure your clutch pedal is all the way up at full stop. If it is spaced away from the stop bracket and the switches aren't the cause, then you have a bent pedal that would affect things.
The issue is that the clutch doesn't disengage fully. The height of the pedal being stopped by the switches won't affect the fact that pushing the pedal doesn't allow the car to shift gears.
The height of the pedal can make all the difference in the world. Without full height (or close to it), the pedal hits the floor before full stroke of the master. It may not be as much of an issue with a Getrag, but with the Isuzu it appears to be critical. A very happy Fiero owner posts about it Here.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-27-2016).]
Update. I purchased Rodney Dickmans master cylinder with adjustable banjo and no luck. With the banjo lengthen some the pedal now stops before it hits the floor so I know I'm getting a full throw. I bled new master using Rodney's method and I have bled the entire system with slave banjo blocked. I repeated the bleeding through several reservoirs worth of fluid to be sure I got all air out. I have no idea where to go from here. The clutch arm does not appear broke or bent. Reminder it was working but would lose clutch after short drive and then when it sat it would get better until it just stopped working completely one day. Could my issue be with clutch or flywheel. Both are new. Or pressure plate and throw out bearing. From what I have read my clutch arm over the correct distance for the getrag. No matter what I do that movement stays the same.
With the slave clamped down there is no give on the pedal. Rock hard and I sat there for a little while holding it to see if it would move over time but nothing. Unless someone has another idea my next step is pull the dust plate a bottom and see if I can see something wrong.
If you are over throwing the clutch it can re-engage making it hard to shift. If this is a 3800 or other swap with flywheel that is too thick and or aftermarket clutch, this can be an issue. Helped a friend with his swap with same issue. Try shifting with the clutch pedal a bit off the floor, if it's smooth like that, then your over extending. We ended up shortening his pedal to about flush with brake pedal, and it now works perfectly.
------------------ 10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video Best 60' 1.42 Best mph 137.66 Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.
Your a genius. Only push the pedal a little over half way and it shifts smooth. Well as smooth as a Fiero shifts any ways. Just need to shorten my banjo to the perfect spot and problem solved. Thank you.
Shortened the banjo as far as it would go but still reengages just before it hits the floor. It's a fairly small area of disengagement so I need it at a stopping point so I'm not having to guess. I will either shorten the banjo more or find a way to limit the pedal from going down farther.
Friends car worked with Rodney's banjo as short as it could go, but optimally a bit shorter would have been better. Should be able to thread it some more, maybe cut the shaft a bit if they bottom out, and get it to work.
------------------ 10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video Best 60' 1.42 Best mph 137.66 Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.
Shortened the banjo as far as it would go but still reengages just before it hits the floor. It's a fairly small area of disengagement so I need it at a stopping point so I'm not having to guess. I will either shorten the banjo more or find a way to limit the pedal from going down farther.
You could always take the brute force method and put a block of wood on the floorboards of a thickness such that the clutch has disengaged but not yet re-engaged. Gives you a functional Fiero while you continue to correct the base problem!
Thought about doing something like that but I already removed the master and took some length off the banjo. Hate that there is such a short area of disengagement. Not sure what can fix that except for putting stock flywheel back in. Never really could shift a Fiero very quickly anyways.
Hate that there is such a short area of disengagement. Not sure what can fix that except for putting stock flywheel back in.
This has gone into territory beyond my area of expertise. However, I would think that the dimensions of the Fidanza aluminum flywheel would be the same as the factory steel unit that it replaces.
I don't think it's a flywheel thickness issue, as much as a clutch design issue. The slave will only go a set amount of travel regardless of initial position, it self adjusts for clutch wear in that way. My friends car has a spec clutch, and it is also using a fwd trans with internal clutch lever. The internal lever ratio is higher than the stock Fiero external lever creating more throw with less travel of the slave, added to the spec pressure plate and it would over throw the clutch. Too thick of a flywheel will cause the pressure plate to hit the inside of the transmission. As long as you can remove the slave and move the clutch lever back and forth a bit, to ensure its not touching the transmission and pressure plate at the same time, and the pressure plate does not hit the transmission when running, the flywheel thickness is ok.
------------------ 10.007 @ 135.54MPH. <-- Video Best 60' 1.42 Best mph 137.66 Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 140lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, stock L32 bottom end and heads.
Just never had an issue before installing this flywheel. I would have to say that I don't think my old slave was very good though. I may not have been getting a good push with my old one. Regardless I did get the master back in and I can now shift smoothly with the pedal on the floor. Grabs quick, but I think I can get use to that.
So now that I can drive it, back to tuning. Thank you everyone for your help with this.
However, I would think that the dimensions of the Fidanza aluminum flywheel would be the same as the factory steel unit that it replaces.
