Vehicle is a an 87 Fiero with 51k miles from New Mexico. It sat for at least 5-6 years.
Everything in the front with the exception of the shocks is original. Rear end has polyurethane mounts on the cradle, engine, and a-arms along with new tie rods and struts. In the front, new zero-end links and polyurethane bushings for the sway bar are on their way. It also just got aligned.
Car feels "squirrely" on the highway. I am thinking that my tie rods need to be replaced(inner+outer), so I am going to do that in the next few weeks. I am wondering if I should just do everything... Some specific questions:
- Can I replace the tie rods somehow without F'ing the alignment up? - Should the front mounts be replaced while I am at it or should the stock ones be okay? Poly or Rubber since I have poly in the back(I'd like decent handling but don't want to stiffin the ride up to the point where it is uncomfortable)? - Balljoints. Is it better to leave the 50k stock ones in or should I replace them?
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-01-2016).]
Vehicle is a an 87 Fiero with 51k miles from New Mexico. It sat for at least 5-6 years.
Everything in the front with the exception of the shocks is original. Rear end has polyurethane mounts on the cradle, engine, and a-arms along with new tie rods and struts. In the front, new zero-end links and polyurethane bushings for the sway bar are on their way. It also just got aligned.
Car feels "squirrely" on the highway. I am thinking that my tie rods need to be replaced(inner+outer), so I am going to do that in the next few weeks. I am wondering if I should just do everything... Some specific questions:
- Can I replace the tie rods somehow without F'ing the alignment up? - Should the front mounts be replaced while I am at it or should the stock ones be okay? Poly or Rubber since I have poly in the back(I'd like decent handling but don't want to stiffin the ride up to the point where it is uncomfortable)? - Balljoints. Is it better to leave the 50k stock ones in or should I replace them?
First the basics; (don't be offended... ):
How are the tires? Check for tread bulges and ensure the pressures are correct. Low rear tire pressure can be 'squirrely'.
Jack the car up & check for play with your hands at 12:00 o'clock and 6:00 o'clock, then 9:00 o'clock and 3:00 o'clock. The vertical check is for the ball joints; the horizontal check is for the steering. (Front and rear. Rear rods get forgotten).
Fiero alignment is fussy; a lot of alignment shops don't set them up right. Do you have a report of the alignment data?
How are the tires? Check for tread bulges and ensure the pressures are correct. Low rear tire pressure can be 'squirrely'.
Jack the car up & check for play with your hands at 12:00 o'clock and 6:00 o'clock, then 9:00 o'clock and 3:00 o'clock. The vertical check is for the ball joints; the horizontal check is for the steering. (Front and rear. Rear rods get forgotten).
Fiero alignment is fussy; a lot of alignment shops don't set them up right. Do you have a report of the alignment data?
Haha don't worry I am not.
Tires are brand new, all at pressure. Car has 500 Miles on it with no uneven wear on any of the tires. I will do that check, but I am almost positive my guy did it. He built my exhaust and aligned my previous project, along with many other of my cars(from a local shop). I do have the alignment data, I will post it later tonight when I get home from work.
Could it be anything else besides the tie rod ends? My other Fiero with wayyyyy more miles did not feel like this.
My '84 SE was a wanderer for a while. It has 371,000 kilometers (230,000 miles) on it (all mine). The alignment was ok; tracking and tire wear all good. At highway speeds, it would yaw, requiring steering correction. It would be apparent particularly to the right of the crown; much less while on the left of the crown.
Last summer I replaced the front cross member; the RH upper control arm bolt sleeve had broken free from the cross member. That was not the source of the wandering; it just produced a clicking noise as the bushing moved back and forth. Fortunately I had previously replaced the rusted away upper brackets, so the bushing was retained close to where it should be.
I then also decided to find the source of the wandering, which had eluded a couple of mechanics. I wanted to eliminate the source of the wandering before paying for an alignment, needed due to the front end rebuild. I finally found a very slight but visibly detectable play in the end of the rear RH tie rod end. My son did the horizontal push/pull thing on the wheel while I watched the tie rod end from above, looking just ahead of the trunk. Sure enough, I could see movement.
I took a set of Fiero Store tie rod ends to my alignment friend who confirmed the movement as the likely source of the wandering. He replaced the ends, did the alignment & the problem was solved.
Lots of people don't think about the rear tie rods, as they are not typically on rear wheel drive cars.
My '84 SE was a wanderer for a while. It has 371,000 kilometers (230,000 miles) on it (all mine). The alignment was ok; tracking and tire wear all good. At highway speeds, it would yaw, requiring steering correction. It would be apparent particularly to the right of the crown; much less while on the left of the crown.
Last summer I replaced the front cross member; the RH upper control arm bolt sleeve had broken free from the cross member. That was not the source of the wandering; it just produced a clicking noise as the bushing moved back and forth. Fortunately I had previously replaced the rusted away upper brackets, so the bushing was retained close to where it should be.
I then also decided to find the source of the wandering, which had eluded a couple of mechanics. I wanted to eliminate the source of the wandering before paying for an alignment, needed due to the front end rebuild. I finally found a very slight but visibly detectable play in the end of the rear RH tie rod end. My son did the horizontal push/pull thing on the wheel while I watched the tie rod end from above, looking just ahead of the trunk. Sure enough, I could see movement.
I took a set of Fiero Store tie rod ends to my alignment friend who confirmed the movement as the likely source of the wandering. He replaced the ends, did the alignment & the problem was solved.
Lots of people don't think about the rear tie rods, as they are not typically on rear wheel drive cars.
I will have to check this out. Both of mine are brand new(less than 1000 miles) from Rodney, but never the less it may be the issue. Just jack her up and check for play? You were looking at the cradle side end?
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-01-2016).]
I will have to check this out. Both of mine are brand new(less than 1000 miles) from Rodney, but never the less it may be the issue. Just jack her up and check for play? You were looking at the cradle side end?
Sorry, I reread your original post where you mentioned that they're new and from Rodney so that's not likely the issue. Mine were 32 years old with 370,000 kilometers (230,000 miles) on them, lol! And yes, it was the cradle end. The wheel ends were fine.
[This message has been edited by David Hambleton (edited 05-01-2016).]
You say it feels "squirrely" on the highway. Can you be more specific? Does the front end wander? Does it feel like the rear end wants to swing out?
I found out the hard way that the Fiero suspension really does NOT like toe-out. The front end will wander and float if the front wheels are toed-out. They need slight toe-in to keep the front end stable. The rear end needs to be neutral, or toed-in slightly. Otherwise, the rear end will try to step out.
If alignment isn't the issue, the next thing to do is to check for looseness in the suspension. The idea is to jack up the car, then grab one of the wheels and try to wiggle it back and forth. Try wiggling it side-to-side and then up-and-down. If you feel any looseness or any clunks, investigate and find the source.
Also, this is a long shot, but check the rear wheel bearings. The rear has bearing/hub units that are held together by tension on the axle nuts. Make sure the axle nuts are tight. The torque spec is 200 ft-lb. If the nuts are tight but the bearings still have play, the wheel bearings are toast.
One more question: how much play is there in the steering wheel? If there's enough slack in the steering, it can be difficult to keep the car going straight at highway speeds.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-01-2016).]
Everything in the rear is new, bearings, struts, tie rod ends, ball joints, brakes, discs, mounts, cv axles. Additionally, this same rear end was just on an 86 that did *not* have this issue. So the issue must lie somewhere in the front. Also, wheels/tires are the same and they are all up to pressure. I put 500 miles on that car before swapping everything over.
When I say "squirrely", I mean I am constantly correcting the car on the highway. Consistent minor movements in the steering are required to keep it straight. There is almost no play in the steering.
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-02-2016).]
I know this is going to sound like a stupid question but they did do a 4 wheel alignment right?
Even brand new parts can be bad, we had that happen at the factory, a lot and until they found out about it we never knew, even the guys on the line who installed the parts sometimes didn't catch it. I had a rear ball joint go bad as in real sloppy and it did the same thing. almost make you think the wheel was falling off. I had just passed a state safety inspection and the mechanic who did it never even checked the rear ball joints, not sure if he even knew it had them. young kid out of trade school.
Jack each tire up and put a long pry bar under the bottom of each wheel and pull up on the bar if there is any play it may be that when the new ball joint was installed the knuckle hole was worn or the installer didn't tighten the nut down enough when installed.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
With 50k there shouldn't be too much worn unless it was badly abused. Never greased. From New Mexico I would look at the control arm bushings for cracking from the dry heat, but they shouldn't be "use" worn. The tie rod ends are easy enough to check. And if you replace them you will have to align again. The ball joints, I like the OE ones better then what is out there to replace them with. However, other than checking for worn or loose parts and the possibility of alignment not right, here's a few things to ponder. When checking the ball joints, the front is checked different than the rear. The front lower ball joints have to be unloaded/weight off. Jack stand the control arm as close to the ball joint as possible. Also with the control arms unloaded, check upper B joint and bushings. The rears need to be hanging by jacking up under the cradle. For front and rear inner tie rod ends. I have seen them not show play with the suspension not in normal height and show play while in normal ride height. We see this when a car is on the turn plates on an alignment rack. At home the best way to see this, is to put the wheel on a plastic trash bag. If you put both front on bags, you can turn the wheels lock to lock, at the wheels by hand. If you have play in the front inners, you'll feel it. On the rear. Not only will feel movement in the tie rod ends, but also some of the stress points (bushings, bearing, strut) that you may not feel when the suspension is hanging unloaded. Grab 9:00 and 3:00 and try to move side to side for tie rod and bushing wear/movement. Grab 12:00 and pull in and out to check for movement in struts and bearings. You would be supprised what shows up loaded and unloaded.
Check for preload play in your front bearings. Good bet they haven't been repacked. They do need to have a little movement. Excessive play will cause wander and brake issues.
A while back I went from a very worn 85 to a better shape 87. The 87 was a little "wandery". The 85 handled better. It ended up being the rear struts and springs. The rear would feel like it "dipped" on slightest corrections and worse in harder turns. They didn't look bad and didn't rebound too easy. They would let the car sway too easy as if they had little to no resistance on small movements side to side. Would make you have to make constant small corrections. With each correction you would have to counter when the weight shifted back. Odd the 85 and 87 were both GTs. NO rear sway bar on the 87. The 87 was almost all stock. The 85s struts had been replaced. The car had been through several hands before I had got it and it had sat for long times. A lot of people throwing parts at the car and never really getting it on the road. It had a set of the earlier Monroe Matics USA built. The 85s springs were OE but stiffer/more responsive? The 87s springs felt mushy. So they and the springs went on the 87. It was like driving a different car. Later the sway bar went on.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 05-02-2016).]
The rear end had no play, wheels were solid, but both front wheels had some horizontal play(about equal on each side). However I just realized as I am typing this, you probably have to leave one of the wheels on the ground when you do that right? I had the whole front end jacked up...oops. No vertical play.
To tally everything up..
Symptoms: Sway/"Squirrely" feeling on the highway, along with a vibration in the steering wheel that comes and goes. -Symptoms are much less noticeable under acceleration
Car: 87 GT w/3800, 51k miles from New Mexico, sat for 5-10 years before purchase
Additional information: Car was just aligned, front left caster was slightly off(I think about 1 degree), but everything else was good.
Wheels - 17inch, recently balanced Tires - 1 year old with 1k miles, no uneven wear, all at pressure
Rear End:
Struts - New Balljoints - New Tie Rods - New Bearings - New CV Joints - New Brakes/Discs - New Cradle Mounts - New/Poly Bushings - New/Poly Engine Mounts - New/Poly
Front end: Shocks - New Bearings - Repacked Tie Rods - Original Bushings - Original Steering Rack - Original, "shock" is leaking Balljoints - Original Swaybar mounts/links - Original and replacing this weekend.
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-04-2016).]
If the caster is less than spec in the front, you'll need to constantly correct the wheel when going in a straight line. My Indy wouldn't run straight without constant correction at the wheel, very annoying. I replaced the stock 6mm UCA washers with the 3/9 kit and problem solved.
I just now have my first ever 87, so take my 88 experience for what it is worth. Kevin's red 88 GT would do squirrely things especially when going over small dips. the car would wander to one side.
It turned out to be the bushings on the front sway bar. Problem is, I don't know if your 87 has a front sway bar. I have some inclination that they don't. If it does, be sure to check the condition. On the red one, the left side was toast and the right side was still in half way decent shape. It caused the two sides to react differently to up and down motion. After I replaced all the sway bar bushings it handles so much nicer.
I know the fault does not lie with the alignment, that guy got my other Fiero perfect, and corrected the rear when I severely F'd up the camber. He said after he really trying he could not get the caster straight, he suspected the possibility of an accident. Ill see if I can dig up the specs. The carfax was clear and the area under the headlight was clean, but the car got repainted with less than 50k mile and the front bumper/quarter panel show obvious signs of being replaced..
87's do have a sway bar, and I am going to replace those bushings this weekend. Ill see if anything changes! I ordered a new steering damper as mine was leaking, possible cause?
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-05-2016).]
Problem is, I don't know if your 87 has a front sway bar.
Every Fiero ever made came from the factory with a front sway bar.
quote
Originally posted by Ray_and_kevin:
It turned out to be the bushings on the front sway bar...., the left side was toast and the right side was still in half way decent shape. It caused the two sides to react differently to up and down motion.
Are you referring to the end-link bushings?
Seeing as how a sway bar basically connects the two sides together (they actually work against each other through the sway bar)... I don't understand how bad bushings on one side would cause "the two sides to react differently to up and down motion". IMO, the excess play created by the bad bushings on one side would equally affect both sides.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-05-2016).]
I just now have my first ever 87, so take my 88 experience for what it is worth. Kevin's red 88 GT would do squirrely things especially when going over small dips. the car would wander to one side.
It turned out to be the bushings on the front sway bar. Problem is, I don't know if your 87 has a front sway bar. I have some inclination that they don't. If it does, be sure to check the condition. On the red one, the left side was toast and the right side was still in half way decent shape. It caused the two sides to react differently to up and down motion. After I replaced all the sway bar bushings it handles so much nicer.
Ray
Ding ding ding, we have a winner it seems.
I replaced the sway bar bushings, as well as the stabilizer end links(I used Rodney's Zero-End links) along with a new steering damper and the car is much better! Vibration on the highway is down, as well as the "squirrely" feeling I was getting.
It is very nice, because I did not want to spend $$ on an alignment..
): 
