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Gen2 headlight motor passenger side needs a bit of a manual turn to go up by Matthew_Fiero
Started on: 07-23-2015 06:17 PM
Replies: 22 (485 views)
Last post by: theogre on 06-08-2017 03:05 AM
Matthew_Fiero
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Report this Post07-23-2015 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matthew_FieroSend a Private Message to Matthew_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello,

I have an 85 GT with the Gen2 motors. I have a passenger side headlight that wont go up unless I give the manual knob a helping hand (about half a turn). It fells like as if the headlight is in a tough spot unless I help it out.

I have searched the archives for about 30 minutes with no success in a similar topic.

Can anyone give any ideas for me please as to what may be wrong?

I have disassembled the entire headlight motor and everything seems to be in tact. Even the bushings seems okay and there are no wear spots on the gear teeth.

Any help is most appreciated.

Thank you for looking,

Matthew
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Report this Post07-24-2015 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matthew_FieroSend a Private Message to Matthew_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello,

Any help?
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Report this Post07-25-2015 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
motor is binding someplace in there. Could be several places.
see //www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/135685.html#p3

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Matthew_Fiero
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Report this Post07-28-2015 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matthew_FieroSend a Private Message to Matthew_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That doesn't really help. Thank you though!

I will just replace the entire motor.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Matt, did a new motor fix it?

I have an 87 with a stubborn drivers side. Its almost like when it goes down it overtightens, or maybe when the car is sitting it still tightens a little more. Because it seems its not over tightened right away?

If I turn the knob manually a half turn twards up ( it is tight... like a bolt that is tighter than it should be for that half turn) then it goes up fine under its own power, and it might go up again and again if tried right away, but after sitting it is too tight to go up, unless I manually loosen 1/2 turn again.
All is well visually in and out.

I was wondering if the headlight switch or some sort of other part in the system could be the issue, but if the other headlight works does that rule that out?

Thanks

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-30-2017).]

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Report this Post05-30-2017 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris EddySend a Private Message to Chris EddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With Gen2, one failure mode is that the transistor gets hot (there are two in the module) and burns up. But for a while, it might be just very lethargic. Can you get a DC meter across the motor? The challenge is that the voltage is only applied for about 2 seconds. Your meter would have to catch that value for you to see it.
Don't bother measuring from either of the motor wires to ground, the module switches polarity for up and down, so neither wire is really positive or negative.
If the left side works, though, it sounds like ground is getting to the control module.
I seem to recall that the +12V does come in to the module on two separate wires, though, one for each side. You might check that 12V is present on both, when the motor tries to run.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I have an 87 with a stubborn drivers side. Its almost like when it goes down it overtightens, or maybe when the car is sitting it still tightens a little more. Because it seems its not over tightened right away?

If I turn the knob manually a half turn ( it is tight... like a bolt that is tighter than it should be for that half turn) then it goes up fine, and it might go up again and again if tried right away, but after sitting it is too tight to go up, unless I manually loosen 1/2 turn again.
All is well visually in and out.

I was wondering if the headlight switch or some sort of other part in the system could be the issue, but if the other headlight works does that rule that out?
I know you've read recent gen2 posts and likely my cave... HL switch etc has nothing to do w/ this problem.
Again... Module will shut down power to a binding motor. Binding motor means motor and/or bucket assem and/or door. You want the module to do exactly this or a door buried in ice will damage the motor and/or bucket.
If motor need a turn of knob then the motor likely is the problem.

I had motor going tight over the years and tried lube and adjusting the thrust ball on bottom but still had to turn the knob sometimes Plus had Derlin pins/dowels that finally killed the same motor. I've now replace both w/ Cardone new motors and done w/ problems and have a warranty. (You could get new GM/ACdelco motors until stopped selling last few years.)

If you manually turn to run, even 1/2 of a turn, Motor may work normally then not again after being off for awhile. Heat from sun and radiator likely doesn't help.
Nylon gear can deform and "set" well before they finally break for a given load at ether End of Travel. Down EoT more likely but does happen of Up EoT. (Damage to Down EoT as I've posted in //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/128600.html#p11 Some damage to Up EoT but not easy to see in the picture.)

You can try cleaning etc but may not last. More so when you drive @ night or bad weather regularly. (Many states require HL on when Windshield wipers are on any time of day.)
Examples:
Lube may help short term but Many greases will attack the gear often making it brittle.
Thrust ball @ bottom is hard steel and cut into the soft steel screw and when that happens, many lubes won't hold up for long and many lubes can work dirt in the bearing make cutting problem worse.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It closes and then the motor apparently tries to go farther and binds it to where there is too much resistance ( like orge said as if the doors were iced shut).

So I guess I need a new driver side gen 2 motor.

I was just hoping if I buy a motor, that it is the motors fault and not something else causing it to try and over tighten down.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-30-2017).]

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Report this Post05-30-2017 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:
With Gen2, one failure mode is that the transistor gets hot (there are two in the module) and burns up. But for a while, it might be just very lethargic. Can you get a DC meter across the motor? The challenge is that the voltage is only applied for about 2 seconds. Your meter would have to catch that value for you to see it.
Don't bother measuring from either of the motor wires to ground, the module switches polarity for up and down, so neither wire is really positive or negative.
If the left side works, though, it sounds like ground is getting to the control module.
I seem to recall that the +12V does come in to the module on two separate wires, though, one for each side. You might check that 12V is present on both, when the motor tries to run.
Module ground is same as most everything else in front... G101 and G102.
Clean/fix both can solve many problems but not 1 sticky motor most times.

Module plugs can be corroded, crack solder to board, and/or iffy Metropack plug terminals. The module, weather pack and metropack plugs are water resistance, not water proof, and driving thru deep water can wreck the module.

Module burn a MOSFET is another problem mostly cause by iffy module with crap solder joints etc. If water got inside, more so.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BruceSend a Private Message to BruceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The door on my driver's side binds some. What is a good way to make it less difficult to open?
b
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Report this Post05-30-2017 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bruce:

The door on my driver's side binds some. What is a good way to make it less difficult to open?
b


Depends how its binding, they are supposed to resist and will be firm by hand. The plastic sliders on the underside of the lid can be greased, you could spray lube the rest of the mechanism. I'd use silicone spray.
But I think a door binding is unusual unless its actually rubbing the hood from misalignment.

If it just goes up slower it could be the motor or mechanism not the door.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Depends how its binding, they are supposed to resist and will be firm by hand. The plastic sliders on the underside of the lid can be greased, you could spray lube the rest of the mechanism. I'd use silicone spray.
But I think a door binding is unusual unless its actually rubbing the hood from misalignment.

If it just goes up slower it could be the motor or mechanism not the door.
Again... lube may work short term but causes more problems.
some problems are same regardless gen1 or gen2 motor used.

GM and Many others use plastic bearings/bushings for good reasons... (hidden HL assembles and brake/clutch pedals are famous for them.) They mostly shed Dirt from the road and your feet.

If the bearing are bad, little help to be had from lubing. (If pedal plastics are bad, try Dorman Help!)
If dirty/rusty, clean all parts and spray dry teflon on metal parts only.

If you have mod'ed HL buckets for smaller lights... Many mods have problems like cutting off the 2 bumps on back that are the main bearings that hits the plastic bearings on the door. (Has 2 more "backup" bearing points where the trim might hit the door when open.) Mod's w/o them can wreck the door.
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Report this Post05-30-2017 06:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BruceSend a Private Message to BruceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the "criss-cross" springs that hold the door down are the problem, at least that what it appears to be after comparing them with the passengers side. The lights work perfectly under no load, but there is a hesitation on the retraction phase. However, I want to make sure I don't screw up the headlight door.
b
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Report this Post05-30-2017 10:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris EddySend a Private Message to Chris EddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It may be simpler than that.. the 4 mounting nuts for a headlight assembly allow one to shift the assembly in two axis. I found that my drivers side scraped in two locations.. shifting the assembly around worked a treat. They both go up and down fairly quietly now.
Just apply some patience and play with the positions.
The two nuts below are HARD to reach for fat hands. (almost said heads). I would align with the top two and tighten the lowers when ready.
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Report this Post05-31-2017 03:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bruce:
I think the "criss-cross" springs that hold the door down are the problem, at least that what it appears to be after comparing them with the passengers side. The lights work perfectly under no load, but there is a hesitation on the retraction phase. However, I want to make sure I don't screw up the headlight door.
Door springs are there to keep door shut @ highway speeds. Door w/o or weak springs then the door can be damage or break.

Springs binding can happen. Clean parts and apply very thin coat of brake grease when metal parts touch. That type won't easy wash off or run when hot.
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Report this Post05-31-2017 03:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

theogre

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quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:
It may be simpler than that.. the 4 mounting nuts for a headlight assembly allow one to shift the assembly in two axis. I found that my drivers side scraped in two locations.. shifting the assembly around worked a treat. They both go up and down fairly quietly now.
Just apply some patience and play with the positions.
The two nuts below are HARD to reach for fat hands. (almost said heads). I would align with the top two and tighten the lowers when ready.
1/4" socket set w/ 4"+ extension helps. Raise the HL and loosen bottom nuts first. reinstall tighten them last.

Do not remove bottom nuts. just loosen. Bucket assem is slotted there.
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Report this Post05-31-2017 09:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bruce:

I think the "criss-cross" springs that hold the door down are the problem, at least that what it appears to be after comparing them with the passengers side. The lights work perfectly under no load, but there is a hesitation on the retraction phase. However, I want to make sure I don't screw up the headlight door.
b


Generally I also would blame the pivoting mechanism or motor itself before any issues with the door.
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Report this Post06-01-2017 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BruceSend a Private Message to BruceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any pictures available to show me what you're talking about?
Thanks!
b
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Report this Post06-01-2017 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bruce:

Any pictures available to show me what you're talking about?
Thanks!
b


What year is your car, does the motor have a big flat knob on top like the one in this video ( gen 1), or a smaller diameter one that kind of looks like a tall bottle cap? Basically the mechanism (arms that swing) is the same on either, but there is an earlier and a later motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhswtuvwpA0

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-05-2017).]

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Report this Post06-07-2017 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Matt, did a new motor fix it?

I have an 87 with a stubborn drivers side. Its almost like when it goes down it overtightens, or maybe when the car is sitting it still tightens a little more. Because it seems its not over tightened right away?

If I turn the knob manually a half turn twards up ( it is tight... like a bolt that is tighter than it should be for that half turn) then it goes up fine under its own power, and it might go up again and again if tried right away, but after sitting it is too tight to go up, unless I manually loosen 1/2 turn again.
All is well visually in and out.

I was wondering if the headlight switch or some sort of other part in the system could be the issue, but if the other headlight works does that rule that out?

Thanks



I was informed by a knowlegable Fiero guy that there are bearings under the knob, and they would probably be what it causing it to "stick".
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Report this Post06-07-2017 02:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I was informed by a knowlegable Fiero guy that there are bearings under the knob, and they would probably be what it causing it to "stick".
Maybe but unlikely.

Motor has 4 bearings
top & bottom thrust bearing. Bottom thrust ball has adjust screw as I said many times and Dirt/wear can change adjustment and cause motor problem.
top & bottom sleeve bearing for motor rotation. bottom is @ top of gear case next to brushes in the motor.

I'm not sure how top is done and no dead motors to look at right now. Thrust function can be part of same top brass bearing or not.

Lubing any motor's "brass" may help short term. Many lubes you add will gum up and make much worse problems because of dirt buildup and radiator and sun heating the motor.
Why? Brass/bronze bearings are often sintered parts to hold lube and if lube is "bad" for any reason then is very hard to clean and lube them.

Related to cheap shade pole motors w/ sintered bearings for many 120vac applications. Many try to "fix" these "sealed" bearing by using many types of oil including WD40 and related. Most Only works for a few days to months before bearings are binding or squeaking again.
Sealed in this cases is made to hold whatever lube from the factory and never add oil. You can get brass w/ oil ports like in this video (YT) see also Metal powder and powder metallurgy technology (YT video.)
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Report this Post06-07-2017 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Chris EddySend a Private Message to Chris EddyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
WD40 is not an oil, "water displacement formula 40".
You might consider a lithium grease or similar, as it is known to not attract dirt as much.
I have good luck with an ultrasonic bath and a non-foaming detergent to strip off good old fashioned grease.
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Report this Post06-08-2017 03:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:
WD40 is not an oil, "water displacement formula 40".
You might consider a lithium grease or similar, as it is known to not attract dirt as much.
I have good luck with an ultrasonic bath and a non-foaming detergent to strip off good old fashioned grease.
Yes WD40 is short for that but is oil + solvents etc and like many others is not made as a lube but sold as such at many places.
CRC 5-56, PB Blaster, and others are sold as lube too and they are not.
Even original 3in1 oil is a poor to very poor lube for many uses.

Many Greases in Sintered bearing will soon made big problems. I've seen many people try grease on 120vac motors and end up w/ brass bearing freeze up then motor heats and often fry the thermal fuse/cutoff. Gen2 motor w/ lube issues then you hope the module is doing it's job and killing power.

Depending how the bearing is made... sonic tanks may not help. Even soaking them in strong solvents for days may not remove all factory lube in "sealed" sintered bearings.
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