Just looked a little more closely at your logs. Something is way off. Either the whole ve table needs to be reduced to pull fueling out, or the injector constant is off. What injectors are you using?
fierofinder - sorry to hear you are having problems. The 7730 ECM is indeed a very picky beast and it is also very sensitive to engine running conditions.
That having been said, I know the Trueleo intakes were notorious for having vacuum leaks. You need to make absolutely sure your Trueleo intake has NO vacuum leaks whatsoever. One scan data item that might clue us in to what is going on here is the IAC position counts. What are your IAC position counts doing at warm idle (throttle closed)?
Since you have a mild cam, we should also check something else. Get a mechanical vacuum gauge and connect it to a vacuum port on the intake. Let the engine settle down to a warm idle (with the throttle closed). Does the vacuum gauge needle bounce or fluctuate at all? What sort of vacuum readings are you getting?
-ryan
------------------ More is more. Less is not enough. Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
They are suppose to 17# camaro injectors. I had issues with the company when ordering but believe I got the correct ones. One of them has a different color ring but they assured me they were all the same. I have thought about switching them out for pintle type injectors but was told the disc type should work fine using the 7730.
I'm pretty sure no vaccuum leaks on the truleo anymore. There were some pin hole leaks originally but I completely coated all the welds with jb weld. I used silicone when mounting the truleo as well. I also sealed all the vacuum fittings on the back. I will try those other things you mentioned, just not sure I have a vaccuum gauge.
I'm pretty sure no vaccuum leaks on the truleo anymore. There were some pin hole leaks originally but I completely coated all the welds with jb weld. I used silicone when mounting the truleo as well. I also sealed all the vacuum fittings on the back. I will try those other things you mentioned, just not sure I have a vaccuum gauge.
Mechanical vacuum gauges are cheap so I would encourage you to just pick one up if you don't have one.
quote
Originally posted by fierofinder:
They are suppose to 17# camaro injectors. I had issues with the company when ordering but believe I got the correct ones. One of them has a different color ring but they assured me they were all the same. I have thought about switching them out for pintle type injectors but was told the disc type should work fine using the 7730.
It sounds like you have a set of mismatched injectors. Unless they were flow tested as a set (and you were provided with a flow sheet showing and proving this), I don't know how much I would trust them.
You can use disc or pintle type injectors, it doesn't matter. But what does matter is you need to have a matched set of injectors all the same type and all the same flow rate in the same engine. Mix-matched sets of injectors in the same engine can cause problems.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 09-30-2015).]
What I was sent was a set that was matched and flow rated supposedly, but one had appeared to be leaking so they sent me another injector. The new one had a different colored ring but when I inquired upon it they assured me it was the same flow rate. Should i take them in and have them bench tested? I would think there should be somewhere around here that does it. Even though both types of injectors are suppose to work, is one going to be better than the other? I might just replace them. I'm planning on getting a vaccuum tester by this weekend and checking that. Also when I get home a I will check the log for the IAC step changes.
What I was sent was a set that was matched and flow rated supposedly, but one had appeared to be leaking so they sent me another injector. The new one had a different colored ring but when I inquired upon it they assured me it was the same flow rate. Should i take them in and have them bench tested? I would think there should be somewhere around here that does it. Even though both types of injectors are suppose to work, is one going to be better than the other? I might just replace them. I'm planning on getting a vaccuum tester by this weekend and checking that. Also when I get home a I will check the log for the IAC step changes.
Electronic fuel injectors are not all created equal. Even injectors of different types that all have the same flow rating - because they can have different response times (the amount of time it takes the injector to open and close fuel flow once power is applied and turned off). They can also have different electrical current requirements. And this is why it is very important that a matched set of injectors be used on a given engine. That having been said, it is possible you could have a set of injectors that are all the same type, flow rate, and they could all have the same power requirements - and the only difference could be some color band that was painted on or installed at the factory. Further testing would be required to determine this beyond just a static flow test.
But before we write off the problem as being the injectors, we need to look at the other issue you said you had:
quote
Originally posted by fierofinder:
The IAC step changes at idle mostly say zero. Every so often it will say something like 128 or 133. I'm assuming because its keeping it from dying.
IAC counts dropping to 0 usually indicate there is a vacuum leak or throttle problem that is allowing too much air to get into the engine. And the 7730 ECM might be trying to calculate base idle fuel off of the IAC position counts data. It is also possible you could have a defective IAC, but further testing is needed to determine the root cause of this problem before you just start buying new parts.
Not to say that the IAC isn't bad, but it is new. I replaced not long ago because I broke the old one.
F85gtron, maybe I read the wrong column, I know there were three different columns I saw for IAC. Wish I would have loaded it to my tablet so I could see it on my lunch break. This weekend I will get the vaccuum tester and check that.
The vaccuum goes up and down between 15 and 20 and is also really shaky as it goes up and down. It seems to go up and down along with idle. Took a video but it was to big to email I can do it again if you want to see it. Also it goes up to about 22 with throttle and it stops shaking.
Wanted to add that the guide that the gauge came with says that the fluctuation below normal vaccuum means its running rich.
[This message has been edited by fierofinder (edited 10-03-2015).]
A couple things, with an emulator there is no need to burn a chip, nor will you ever want to again. Second; injectors may flow the same (at WOT so to speak) but they are not linear with low pulse width, with any mismatch they will function different in different ranges, you HAVE to have a matched set. (Example in simple terms, two cars have 200 HP, but one is at 4500 RPMs and one is at 7000 RPMs, rated the same HP, but are they the same?, no) Make the company fix it, same injectors, same parts numbers, IE identical injectors, don't let them pull a fast one on you. Pointless to try to tune with problems, (trust me I know)
I have been working on this car for so long now that I want to say I bought those injectors over five years ago when I first did the 3.4 swap. I guess it's always worth a shot but I doubt the company will do anything for me at this point. I've always kinda suspected the injectors. Some of them just sound different when firing which concerned me. I used mechanics stethoscope to listen to them individually. If I should get new injectors , what should I get. Should I stay with rebuilt ones or new. What brand is best, and should I use pintle or disc type. I have seen rebuilt Bosch for a good price. Pretty sure I will be paying between 100 to 300 but at this point I want to get the best and I really want to be able to drive my Fiero.
The vaccuum goes up and down between 15 and 20 and is also really shaky as it goes up and down. It seems to go up and down along with idle. Took a video but it was to big to email I can do it again if you want to see it. Also it goes up to about 22 with throttle and it stops shaking.
Wanted to add that the guide that the gauge came with says that the fluctuation below normal vaccuum means its running rich.
I saw the video of the vacuum gauge fierofinder sent me. And the only time I've seen a vacuum needle shake that bad was on something that incorrectly adjusted valves, broken valve springs, bent or otherwise leaking valves, or on an engine that had an other serious mechanical issue.
The only thing I can think that it would be is the cam along with the 1.6 ratio rockers is to much for it. Maybe I need stiffer valve springs. Non of the times I've set the valve lash has made a difference so I doubt its that. I do have the original rockers, studs and guides I could put back on to see if it makes a difference. Is there any other tests that could be done before I go through all that work.
What cam? Usually folks just install the 1.6 OR the cam, but not both. What lifters? Usually cammed motors won't idle well anyway. With everything opened up (porting, hogging out), the velocity at idle has decreased, so you'll have fuel coming out of suspendion onto the valve bowl walls. Then when the valve opens, you get all that liquid fuel plus whatever was just injected too. That will give you crazy numbers when you crack the butterfly at first.
I don't know what actually cam. When I had the engine built I told the guy to put in a more aggressive cam but. would still pass smog. The rockers are scorpion self aligning full roller 1.6 ratio. They are for sbc center bolt down. If this is my issue than I would like to keep my roller rockers and go with a stock cam. Assuming the engine has to come out for changing cam so ts more work. What do you guys think cam or rockers?
A quick search reveals that a new cam or new roller rockers are pretty close in price. ~$200.00 so I guess it comes down to what's better. Extra lift from the cam or from the rockers. I can get the same rockers I have in a 1.5 ratio and it would be less work, but if its better to have lift from the rockers I will replace cam. I do plan on starting with installing the stock ones and seeing how it does before buying anything.
Better to keep the cam and go with 1.5 rockers. However, post a new thread question of cam and rocker combo first to get a guru answers first. I've got 1.6 rockers and I remember my vacuum changed at idle. I'll check mine out and post it so you have something of a reference.
Got the rockers switched over. Almost idles now. Stays pretty steady around 1000 rpm with a little bit of a hiccup here and there. The things is it still wants to do coming off the throttle. If it doesn't die it hunts for a few seconds before finally smoothing out. Tomorrow I will get a new datalog if it isn't raining.
The two things to play with are spark advance and ve. Both can go either way to resolve that condition. Make sure both the idle and main ve tables match. Change one at a time and take notes.
Back at it. Been spending time getting familiar with tunerpro again. Read back through this thread a couple times. Believe I found all my correct files saved to the computer. F85gtron, you still around? Your last reply here you said to make sure the idle ve table matches the main ve table. I went to go do this but the main table doesn't have 1000 or 1400 and the idle table does. Is there a way to add lines?
So I got the idle ve matching main. Lean fuel is off and the enable disable cruise is maxed. Burned chip. Starts and still acts about the same, but I believe I'm now ready to datalog. Going to watch Star Trek with family and when I get back I'll take it for a drive.
I was checking out my logs and messing around with tunerpro when I realized my main and idle wasn't matching. I must have not saved it properly so I'll have to do some more logs. I was messing around with the smooth function on the main ve and also noticed that when you smooth the first column all the numbers increase and the more you hit smooth the higher it goes up.is there a number that it should start at when smoothing?
Not really. Smoothing is just to get everything generally close. The final tables will look like rolling hills when tuned in. There may be a couple blips here and there, depending on what your motor wants.
Have a question about history tables. I have got to the point where you make a history table and play bavk your data log and it populates the table. When I did this it made the history table as my current adx. Do I leave it like that when I go for more data logs or should I switch it back to the a1 adx. Haven't got a lot of data yet.
Posting here again because I am still working on tuning. Really not much change. Idles bad wants to die. Was talking with a local tuner and he mentioned my surging idle is probably being caused by my light flywheel and should raise the idle to prevent this. What I need to know now is how to do this in tuner pro with the A1 mask. Do I change things with iac or fueling tables? Should I just adjust the screw on the throttle body?
Assuming that's because of the tps. Suppose that could be adjusted in tuner pro as well. Maybe not. I could probably bend or file on the tps lever to keep it from activaring as soon. But after all that will IAC still try to compensate? Would I have to mess with fueling to compensate the extra air? Assuming my best option is the IAC anyways. Seems like it would be able to tell it to close less.
Wanted to update this post. Finally have it running well. Have Dave W. From Old School EFI doing the tuning. He is an administrator on Gearhead EFI. Really knows his stuff. Nice guy too got to meet him. Wanted to thank everyone here thats helped out here. Special thanks too f85gtron got a lot of good info from him.
Glad to hear you got it worked out! Every motor is different and wants different things. It takes a lot of time and patience to get it right. I'm totally impressed with the abilities of these veteran tuners that have mastered the voodoo of tuning. Enjoy your ride! Ron
