My 88's brakes have always been fairly consistent, even when I installed the 13" rotor upgrade. (They do some things that I don't care for, like ;locking the fronts too early for my liking, but I'm assured that that is "normal". My other 88 felt essentially the same.)
My 84 Automoda is a different story. When I first got it home, I thought that the brakes were "soft", and required too much pedal (pressure and travel.) I put that on the "list", with the ten thousand other things. I noticed that the right front caliper seemed to be dragging, so I replaced both front calipers, and pads. The brakes felt the same, if not worse, when I finished. I gravity bled the front calipers when I installed them. (Worked fine for the 88.) Last night I replaced the master cylinder, with very little change. I bench bled the MC when I installed it, and bled the entire system. It still requires a bunch of pedal to stop the car. Locking the wheels is out of the question. All I can figure is that there is still some air in there, somewhere.
Any advice will be appreciated. Or are the earlier brakes just that bad?
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
I found that a bad rear caliper will cause the brakes to feel really soft, like there's air trapped in there. The mechanism to adjust the rear pads as they wear tends to fail, so you get an air gap between the pad and rotor. Basically, the first part of the pedal stroke is just taking up this gap instead of applying braking pressure.
Thanks! I have heard that, but tended to discount it since the parking brakes work perfectly. I might just replace the rear calipers and pads since they are the only major pieces that haven't been replaced at this point.
Sounds like you are doing the right thing. Did you bleed from the farthest caliper back from the master first? Totally forgetful atm, but one caliper in the rear has the longest line. I know that you should start there first when bleeding. Sorry not more help on which one, but my car is not here to reference.
My 87 has some sticky tires. Stock brakes, but all new. Lines and all. Locks up all fours. But, it requires more pedal force that I would like also.
Good info. Yeah, I started with the driver's side, rear. That's the longest path. So you can lock up sticky tires? Sounds like I've got some work to do. (Mine are 215s and 235s, but they're not that sticky.)
Any advice will be appreciated. Or are the earlier brakes just that bad?
Raydar, when I resurrected my '84 several years ago, there was some hydraulic issue that was preventing the rear brakes from doing much when the brake pedal was tromped on. (I forget what the exact problem was, but it seems to me it involved the proportioning valve.) When I finally found the problem (and fixed it), I was amazed at how much better a full functioning set of brakes stopped the car! I then autocrossed that same '84 for four years and the brakes were more than sufficient.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the brakes on '84-'87 Fieros. I can't say I notice any difference with the brakes on my '88 Formula compared to my earlier Fieros.
Jaski and Patrick... Thanks for your input too. Obviously I have more work to do. I can tell the back brakes are working, just by the way the car feels. The fronts are trying...
Back to the drawing board. (I don't mind having more work to do. I'm just happy that I don't have to settle for "This can't be it!)
Jaski and Patrick... Thanks for your input too. Obviously I have more work to do. I can tell the back brakes are working, just by the way the car feels. The fronts are trying...
Back to the drawing board. (I don't mind having more work to do. I'm just happy that I don't have to settle for "This can't be it!)
When I was restoring our 86 SE it had a locked up rear cylinder and I couldn't figure out why. Come to find out in the end it had a collapsed rubber line. Did you get good flow out of all the bleeders, about the same amount for each one?
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
For what it's worth, the stock brake system on my 87 GT couldn't lock a wheel if I was driving on ice. Got a solid pedal, just no grab. To try to fix this, a few years back I replaced the pads, re-built all 4 calipers (proper adjustment on on the rear), and replaced the master cylinder. I have good vacuum going to the booster, and the parking brake works great. But at 45-50 mph, if I stand on the pedal, not even a soda can will roll of the seat. I have to be very careful when I drive. Are you experiencing this as well? Oh, and I replaced the rubber hoses with TFS stainless steel.
[This message has been edited by donuteater306 (edited 06-22-2015).]
My experience with the pre-'88 brakes was that they tended to fade quickly. And the rotors warped frequently. But then again, the pads and rotors I was using were the typical parts store fare.
That said, the Grand Am upgrade (vented rotors!) practically eradicated brake fade, even with cheap rotors and pads. And I never had a Grand Am rotor warp.
Raydar; I have had to throw out the anchor at 75 or 80 a few times and made it safely to a stop. I have had to lock up all four a few times and the brakes operated as designed. My 87 GT is completely stock including the brakes. They definately don't operate as smooth or easy as my the modern technology on my late model cars. I have run many rallies through the SC, NC, Ga and Tenn. mountains and have never got white knuckles while driving at my Fiero,s limits. I have run a few rallies with you and the GA Fiero club so you know this 76 year old and his car's driving and stopping capabilities. I would have to agree there is something wrong with your brakes. Harry
[This message has been edited by HarryT (edited 06-22-2015).]
Sorry, I didn't mean to steal this thread. Was just throwing in my 2 cents. Under normal circumstances my brakes feel fine. Just panic braking I soil my shorts. Over the years, a couple of different shops have driven it and suggested different things...I finally just bought everything at one time and went bumper to bumper...except the proportioning valve and booster. The valve and booster are both orig. w/255k miles on em. A friend also has an 87 but with an auto trans. Ive never had to panic stop driving his, but the brakes feel the same as mine otherwise. 80k orig. miles on his.
For street use, the stock Fiero setup is fine. The only weakness, IMHO, is that they are unvented rotors, so under hard use they will get very hot and fade.
Glazed pads and/or rotors will cause poor braking even with all other components being in good condition. Improper break-in, poor cleaning of the rotors, too much or improperly applied slide pin lube, or inexpensive 'lifetime' (really hard) pads can also lead to poor performance, even with all new parts. But to answer the original question, they are good to a point, but not as 'robust' compared to the 88's or a vented rotor/caliper upgrade.
On my 87 GT I often got that "running out of brake" feeling under hard driving as the brakes faded. So I installed the larger LeBaron rotor upgrade and have been happy with them. They work great.
On my 84 Indy, I wanted to keep everything all stock parts but still improve the braking. I tried the Fiero Store Carbomet pads. Hated them! Didn't work cold and black dust everywhere!
I haven't experienced that "running out of brake" feeling at all with these on my Indy. They work cold or hot and haven't had any fade with them. Braking may not be as good as the brakes on my GT - but I don't notice any difference in normal driving.
"Or are the earlier brakes just that bad?" Simple No. Many things can and will cause your problem(s)...
Too much "effort" could be very simple or not. Just a plugged filter can cause booster problems. Leaking vacuum could to it w/o obvious engine idle problem. 1 diaphragm (Fiero booster uses dual setup) is bad will cause allot more pedal effort.
Too much Travel, a low pedal problem, likely rear pistons problem. (Not Confuse w/ soft/spongy that most mean air in the system.)
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Pad choice and rotor material/condition can also lead to poor performance. Cheap pads or rotors, or glazed pads or rotors can lead to a lack of bite than manifests itself as excessive pedal travel... you just keep pushing harder but the brakes themselves aren't doing much of anything.
Edit: Doh - just saw olejoedad's post.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 06-22-2015).]
I put sardonyx's bigger brake booster on my 85 and what a difference with the pedal pressure. Nice now.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress--IT'S ALIVE !!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
I'm having a similar issue with my Formula. Rotors look ok. Have good pad left. New proportional valve. But I do have to stand on them a bit from a 60-0 stop. I have owned an 88 previously from this one and driven several others. The car has sat a bit over the last couple of years, and I'm suspecting glazed rotors/pads. When I first picked up the car over a year ago, the brakes were a little tricky. They came back a bit but not what I would expect from my experience with other 88 stock brakes. Think I should swap out new pads and rotors? I do have firm pedal so I'm not suspecting calipers, but I could be wrong.
Every type and brand of brake pads will work differently. I've observed that the brand and type of brake pads can make a huge difference in braking efficiency. I've had great luck with Wagner Thermo Quiet pads. The rule here is to buy premium quality pads and stay away from the low end Chinese econo stuff. If you follow this rule your brakes will function and work as intended.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Not discounting all the other possible causes of poor brake performance, but... If a pad has a great warranty, they usually are made out of some hard, crap coefficient of drag material designed to never wear, and they are generally innefective as brake pads. Especially in a braking system that is a bit low on clamping strength to start.
That being said, I've personally had the experience of having brakes that couldn't lock up on my 88 GT, and much to my surprise, upgrading to 12" Corvette rotors also had no effect on my lack of ability to lock the wheels up. When I did the Blazer booster upgrade the problem seemed to go away for the most part, probably because enough clamping pressure was now available to work with my pads coefficient of drag.
I believe that changing pad material changes everything. Crap pads are the reason that upgrading the booster is so effective.
I'm still unhappy with my pads, Mine are hawkhead CarboMet (Plus?) Fortunately, my rotors show no sign of wear. I one time burnt the pads pretty bad on an attempt to go from 70-0. At about 20 MPH they no longer functioned, No matter how hard I tried to press the pedal they just wouldn't slow the car down much at all after they heated up. It was just a test, and it failed miserably. This was with stock 88 rotors at the time.
When I built my first kit Ferrari, I installed new oem calipers and high quality pads. I left the system stock, other than the pads...with the solid rotors. I never had any problems with brakes at all, even with a little spirited driving at higher speeds. My V8 car had oem brakes, all stock with vented rotors, and I never cared for their feel.
Glazed pads/shoes are often cause by: idiots that don't clean new rotors/drums. Bad axle seal/boots letting oil/grease contamination on brake parts. A missing "Dirt" Shield helps stopping oil/grease on the road or grease from bad CV. (Driving thru high water is often bad too.) Sometimes Dragging pads from calipers problems. Most times have major wear problem and/or wrap rotors. Very bad then can cause fluid boil or start fires.
Many people buy "hype" brake parts like buying the hype for ignition parts like Split Fire, Etc. Worse they buy "race" pads that are junk on the street because these pads need high heat to work. Buy best set of pads from Wagner, Raybestos, even AZ, etc. Wagner TQ pads are good for many owners and Wagner have rebates every year.
About 4 years ago I did a complete brake system rebuild on my 87 GT. All NEW, OEM Calipers, rotors, Wagner Thermal Quites, Wagner lines & e-brake cables, and large s10 booster mod. Brakes after that are amazing even under hard and daily use. Pads are still between 40-50%
I might go to larger rotors when I put my 17" wheels on even though I don't think I really need to.
------------------ "Because in a split second, It's gone" Ayrton Senna
I have had my fiero for over 2 years been rebuilding it and recently replaced all brake components drove it around the corner and back when car off they feel good but start it up they feel weak have to push pedal to floor to stop. What are the brakes supposed to feel like on this car
...have to push pedal to floor to stop. What are the brakes supposed to feel like on this car
Did you read the following post and click on the links?
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
"Or are the earlier brakes just that bad?" Simple No. Many things can and will cause your problem(s)...
Too much "effort" could be very simple or not. Just a plugged filter can cause booster problems. Leaking vacuum could to it w/o obvious engine idle problem. 1 diaphragm (Fiero booster uses dual setup) is bad will cause allot more pedal effort.
Too much Travel, a low pedal problem, likely rear pistons problem. (Not Confuse w/ soft/spongy that most mean air in the system.)
With my Indy, I wanted to keep the brake parts ALL STOCK - so the only braking "improvement" I could make was with PADS. The Porterfields R4-S pads work incredibly well. I'm surprised so few here have bothered to get them.
In my earlier post, I also included links of people using Porterfields on other cars with very happy results. Sure, they are not cheap $20 pads, but they still give excellent results for less $ than some other "upgrades" people are discussing.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-25-2015).]
I disagree that it is pads. It doesn't explian what the op is dealing with. When you say the ebrake works.. does it lock with just a few clicks? Usually the ebrake problem, causes exactly what you are experiencing.
