I have a friend wants to give me a great deal on rims and tires they just wont fit the lug pattern on my fiero so i was wondering people opinion on these wheel adapters should i trust the one in the link? If im pushing my car do you think i can trust them at all? http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-p...em3cfb7732bf&vxp=mtr
The main issue with wheel adapters is that they will move your wheels out an inch. Make sure you've accounted for that in the offset of any wheels you put on. Some people don't like them, but there really aren't any safety issues with them.
I need it to be 5-100 to 5-114.3 or 4.5 lug pattern and i cant fine any hub centric adapters that are that size... Does hub centric make that much of a difference?
I need it to be 5-100 to 5-114.3 or 4.5 lug pattern and i cant fine any hub centric adapters that are that size... Does hub centric make that much of a difference?
Hub centric is important, it even matters with just wheels. If adapters werent hub centricI would think it would be near impossible to get rid of vibrations, and easy to break studs.
The fieros hub is 57.1 mm... i cant seem to find a hub centric adapter that is 57.1 mm and a 5-100 to 5-114.3, and yes i am really motivated to make this work because i am getting a great deal on rims and tires
The fieros hub is 57.1 mm... i cant seem to find a hub centric adapter that is 57.1 mm and a 5-100 to 5-114.3, and yes i am really motivated to make this work because i am getting a great deal on rims and tires
Did you even visit the link I posted? They'll make custom adapters to ANY spec you need. Hub centric to the Fiero hub AND the wheels you're using. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
So i am broke teenager, and i am planned on purchasing the custom adapters (thanks for the like paul) when i have the extra money because i have to finish my swap, but would it be safe to use the ebay adapters for a couple months until i can get the custom ones?
technically speaking "Hub Centric" wheels imply that the entire weight of the car when parked is resting on the hubs and the car would sit there in place with no lugs at all (Zero offset wheel) and that the lugs only purpose are to secure the wheels to the hub during lateral loads.
That said the manufactures usually over spec the size of the wheel studs so much that they can hold the weight of the car times ten. But you'll never get a engineer to say " Sure go ahead a run a hub centric wheel and hub in a lug centric format"
I would be more concerned about the final installed offset and the wheel bearings. If your going 1" out from the wheel bearings you should match that by going inboard an equal amount.
I've never been fond of wheel adapters. They impose a 10 lug nut wheel mounting, your wheels now mount to an aluminum plate (not steel) and they will move the tires out. Also who makes them, where do they come from and what SAE spec are they manufactured to if at all. While the hub centric variety may be safe for around town driving, I would not feel comfortable using them for hard use. They are banned by the NHRA for this very reason. Just my opinion.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The term hub centric just means the circle wheel and hub have the same center point (they are concentric with each other), the hub protrusion is there to center the wheel firstly as it only sticks out about 8-10mm or so on average. The lug bolt pattern is not designed to hold the weight of the vehicle by itself. Lugs should be torqued properly because it's the clamp load (friction) of the wheel and hub that is what holds the wheel in place. The shear strength of the lugs paired with the small amount of hub protruding into the center of the wheel are basically a belt and suspenders for safety.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
I've never been fond of wheel adapters. They impose a 10 lug nut wheel mounting, your wheels now mount to an aluminum plate (not steel) and they will move the tires out. Also who makes them, where do they come from and what SAE spec are they manufactured to if at all. While the hub centric variety may be safe for around town driving, I would not feel comfortable using them for hard use. They are banned by the NHRA for this very reason. Just my opinion.
Wheels mounting to an aluminum plate (not steel) does not necessarily matter. Good wheel adapters will have a steel nut pressed into the aluminum body so your wheel bolts will thread into steel still. Remember your wheels these days are most likely aluminum and the coefficient of friction between aluminum and steel is actually less then aluminum to aluminum but about the same as steel to steel (this doesn't take into account any paint or other finish that is applied to the wheel, hub, or spacer.) The bigger issue is pushing the wheel out as you've stated (assuming you're still getting at least the factory wheel to vehicle clamp load with whatever wheel/spacer combination.) This puts a higher load on the bearings and reduce life.
Also I can't seem to find where the NHRA has banned wheel spacers? From what I've read they are fine as long as you get the same thread engagement (aka require longer lug studs/bolts) and I didn't see anything on lug pattern adapters. Maybe there was an update I missed somewhere?
Originally posted by Kfa171: ... would it be safe to use the ebay adapters for a couple months until i can get the custom ones?
I've bought these adapters from Ebay and have used them on my car for a while now. Mine are not hubcentric either. I don't think it makes a big difference once the lug nuts are tightened up anyway.
The important thing is proper installation. Just follow some of the installation instructions available on youtube.
I've seen dealerships install wheel spacers/adapters on brand new trucks. I don't think they would do it if it was unsafe.
The term hub centric just means the circle wheel and hub have the same center point (they are concentric with each other), the hub protrusion is there to center the wheel firstly as it only sticks out about 8-10mm or so on average. The lug bolt pattern is not designed to hold the weight of the vehicle by itself. Lugs should be torqued properly because it's the clamp load (friction) of the wheel and hub that is what holds the wheel in place. The shear strength of the lugs paired with the small amount of hub protruding into the center of the wheel are basically a belt and suspenders for safety.
Wheels mounting to an aluminum plate (not steel) does not necessarily matter. Good wheel adapters will have a steel nut pressed into the aluminum body so your wheel bolts will thread into steel still. Remember your wheels these days are most likely aluminum and the coefficient of friction between aluminum and steel is actually less then aluminum to aluminum but about the same as steel to steel (this doesn't take into account any paint or other finish that is applied to the wheel, hub, or spacer.) The bigger issue is pushing the wheel out as you've stated (assuming you're still getting at least the factory wheel to vehicle clamp load with whatever wheel/spacer combination.) This puts a higher load on the bearings and reduce life.
Also I can't seem to find where the NHRA has banned wheel spacers? From what I've read they are fine as long as you get the same thread engagement (aka require longer lug studs/bolts) and I didn't see anything on lug pattern adapters. Maybe there was an update I missed somewhere?
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about wheel adapters, and even the mechanics of two clamped surfaces. Excellent write-up by KaijuSenso. Hopefully that clears it up for some people.
I am seriously considering using my stock 15x7 web wheels with a one inch thick adaptor (5x100 to 5x100, of course) on the rear hubs. Will this put my wheel centerline outside of the bearing assembly and cause undue stress on them?
The term hub centric just means the circle wheel and hub have the same center point (they are concentric with each other), the hub protrusion is there to center the wheel firstly as it only sticks out about 8-10mm or so on average. The lug bolt pattern is not designed to hold the weight of the vehicle by itself. Lugs should be torqued properly because it's the clamp load (friction) of the wheel and hub that is what holds the wheel in place. The shear strength of the lugs paired with the small amount of hub protruding into the center of the wheel are basically a belt and suspenders for safety.
In more detail:
"Hub-Centric:
Nearly all OEM Wheels are designed to be hub-centric. The automaker designs an OEM wheel to fit on a certain car or range of cars. The center bore of the wheel is sized to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car. This is a hub-centric connection, as the wheel is centered by it's connection to the axle hub. The lugnuts hold the wheel firmly to the mounting plate, but it is the wheel-to-axle connection that actually holds the weight of the car. This is quite an important distinction, as the lugnuts are designed to handle lateral forces that push the wheel away from the mounting plate. The forces that the hub and center bore connection are designed to withstand – the weight of the car forcing downward and impacts forcing upward – are at right angles to the forces that the lugnuts are designed for.
Lug-Centric:
Hub diameter is therefore an extremely important consideration when fitting new wheels, whether OEM or aftermarket. If the hub diameter is smaller that the axle, the wheel will simply not fit. Most aftermarket wheels are therefore made with larger hub diameters to ensure that they will fit on a wide range of cars. This means that when the wheel is installed, there will most likely be a space between the axle and the hub instead of a firm contact. The wheel is therefore lug-centric, as the wheel is centered by the lugs rather than by the hub. There are some people who will say that driving on lug-centric wheels doesn't really matter as long as the lugnuts are the self-centering cone type, as they will adequately center the wheel. These people are wrong. Driving on lug-centric wheels means that any impact will apply shear force to the lug studs, forces at 90 degrees to those the studs are designed to handle. This can cause the lug studs to bend, leading to a vibration in the car as the wheel slips around on the mounting plate, and possibly damaging the wheel's center bore if it has enough play to contact the axle. To prevent this kind of thing, aftermarket wheels will usually need hub-centric spacers, small rings of metal or plastic made with various inside and outside diameters so as to fit inside the wheel hub and then fit over the axle, making a lug-centric fitment into a hub-centric one. Some aftermarket wheel makers advertise that all of their wheels are in fact hub-centric – what this means is that they provide the proper spacers for the customer's car, not that they custom-make their wheels for the many hub diameters out there. Most good wheel retailers, online or otherwise, will provide the correct spacers as part of the fitment package. If you do need to shop for a set, try one of the better online stores. In Real Life, most tire retailers will also either carry spacers or will know who does. Do not make the mistake of thinking that spacers are optional equipment, or that a retailer is trying to upsell you on some useless accessories. Hub-centric spacers are actually about as necessary for aftermarket wheels as lugnuts are. Keep the proper fitment for your wheels and you'll be driving happy for a good long time." http://tires.about.com/od/u...g-centric-wheels.htm
"Hub centric rings are rings that cover the spacing between the center bore of an aftermarket wheel to the hub of the vehicle. Hub rings are important because they secure the wheel in place and help prevent any type of vibration issue.There are different sizes of hub rings and they are measured in millimeters which are available through the dealer who sold the wheels." http://www.tsw.com/explore/hub-centric-wheels.php
Good addition. One thing I took from this that I forgot about in my initial statement is the impact load on the wheels (from hitting a pothole for example) and how the portion of the hub protruding into the wheel center bore will take a lot of that force off of the lugs.
I've never been fond of wheel adapters. They impose a 10 lug nut wheel mounting, your wheels now mount to an aluminum plate (not steel) and they will move the tires out. Also who makes them, where do they come from and what SAE spec are they manufactured to if at all. While the hub centric variety may be safe for around town driving, I would not feel comfortable using them for hard use. They are banned by the NHRA for this very reason. Just my opinion.
Ive been on this many times and agree with Dennis. Id rather spend the money for the correct wheels, than trust any hillbilly rigged setup to save a few dollars. If you shop around, you can find perfect fitting wheels for less than $300 brand new. Yes you need to use your current tires or buy new ones too. Youll wish you did that when you total your car in a ditch because of a bad adapter. I bought very nice alloy 5 spoke wheels for my Sebring for $70 each from Tirerack.com. And theyre the same pattern as Fiero.
Nearly all OEM Wheels are designed to be hub-centric. The automaker designs an OEM wheel to fit on a certain car or range of cars. The center bore of the wheel is sized to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car. This is a hub-centric connection, as the wheel is centered by it's connection to the axle hub. The lugnuts hold the wheel firmly to the mounting plate, but it is the wheel-to-axle connection that actually holds the weight of the car. This is quite an important distinction, as the lugnuts are designed to handle lateral forces that push the wheel away from the mounting plate. The forces that the hub and center bore connection are designed to withstand – the weight of the car forcing downward and impacts forcing upward – are at right angles to the forces that the lugnuts are designed for.
Lug-Centric:
Hub diameter is therefore an extremely important consideration when fitting new wheels, whether OEM or aftermarket. If the hub diameter is smaller that the axle, the wheel will simply not fit. Most aftermarket wheels are therefore made with larger hub diameters to ensure that they will fit on a wide range of cars. This means that when the wheel is installed, there will most likely be a space between the axle and the hub instead of a firm contact. The wheel is therefore lug-centric, as the wheel is centered by the lugs rather than by the hub. There are some people who will say that driving on lug-centric wheels doesn't really matter as long as the lugnuts are the self-centering cone type, as they will adequately center the wheel. These people are wrong. Driving on lug-centric wheels means that any impact will apply shear force to the lug studs, forces at 90 degrees to those the studs are designed to handle. This can cause the lug studs to bend, leading to a vibration in the car as the wheel slips around on the mounting plate, and possibly damaging the wheel's center bore if it has enough play to contact the axle. To prevent this kind of thing, aftermarket wheels will usually need hub-centric spacers, small rings of metal or plastic made with various inside and outside diameters so as to fit inside the wheel hub and then fit over the axle, making a lug-centric fitment into a hub-centric one. Some aftermarket wheel makers advertise that all of their wheels are in fact hub-centric – what this means is that they provide the proper spacers for the customer's car, not that they custom-make their wheels for the many hub diameters out there. Most good wheel retailers, online or otherwise, will provide the correct spacers as part of the fitment package. If you do need to shop for a set, try one of the better online stores. In Real Life, most tire retailers will also either carry spacers or will know who does. Do not make the mistake of thinking that spacers are optional equipment, or that a retailer is trying to upsell you on some useless accessories. Hub-centric spacers are actually about as necessary for aftermarket wheels as lugnuts are. Keep the proper fitment for your wheels and you'll be driving happy for a good long time." http://tires.about.com/od/u...g-centric-wheels.htm
"Hub centric rings are rings that cover the spacing between the center bore of an aftermarket wheel to the hub of the vehicle. Hub rings are important because they secure the wheel in place and help prevent any type of vibration issue.There are different sizes of hub rings and they are measured in millimeters which are available through the dealer who sold the wheels." http://www.tsw.com/explore/hub-centric-wheels.php
Not sure where you dug this up, but from an engineering standpoint a lot of this is incorrect. Wheel studs don't ever take sheer loads unless they aren't torqued correctly. Lug nuts create a normal force that clamps the wheel to the hub, and the shear load is taken up by the resulting friction between the wheel and the hub.
Four years ago I first posted the following. These same inexpensive eBay spacers/adapters are now on my '88 Formula. No issues whatsoever... and I don't drive like a grandma.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
I run these 1" hubcentric spacers on the back of my '84. They bring my Sunfire wheels out to the edge of the fenders (instead of being tucked in too far).
I've been on an autocross track (a lot of runs) since putting them on a month ago and so far I'd say they're just fine. No added vibration at high speed at all. No loosening of lug nuts occurred after being torqued down properly.
Four years ago I first posted the following. These same inexpensive eBay spacers/adapters are now on my '88 Formula. No issues whatsoever... and I don't drive like a grandma.
I would not discount Rogers opinion. He was in the automotive business for many years. Your experience only proves that wheel adapters CAN work. . AFAIK, they are not manufactured to SAE or DOT standards. Most all these days are no-name Chinese imports. When you purchase them you have no idea what facility made them, what materials were used, or if any test standards were applied and used to determine their strength. I believe what Roger was getting at is that using this Chinese made product can be an unknown. If I interpret the point of view correctly; wheel Adapters may work fine and be very good but the again they may not. In summation no one is telling anyone what they should or should not use. Its just an open exchange of ideas and opinions that may be useful. Among the pro's and the cons, the final result is that we all make our own decisions.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-14-2015).]
An "opinion" is just that... an opinion. I don't have to agree with it. You have one, Roger has one, I have one.
Roger and I have appeared in perhaps a dozen threads where this topic has been discussed in the last four years or so. There's no animosity between us. I was just teasing Roger when I said I "knew" he'd turn up. I'd be disappointed if he didn't.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-14-2015).]
They are completely safe i have 10 pairs on my fiero and two trailers just make sure studs don't peek out from adapter you will be ok you must grind them..
Originally posted by Neils88: Not sure where you dug this up, but from an engineering standpoint a lot of this is incorrect. Wheel studs don't ever take sheer loads unless they aren't torqued correctly. Lug nuts create a normal force that clamps the wheel to the hub, and the shear load is taken up by the resulting friction between the wheel and the hub.
The links are at the bottom. I thought you agreed with KaijuSenso? I could agree with you if there were teeth or ridges of some sort on the face of the wheel and hub.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Your experience only proves that wheel adapters CAN work. .
The links are at the bottom. I thought you agreed with KaijuSenso? I could agree with you if there were teeth or ridges of some sort on the face of the wheel and hub.
I do agree with KaijuSenso. Unfortunately, the passage that you posted had some misinformation with respect to the way the wheel studs work. Definitely no ridges required. Bolts are used to clamp two surfaces together and then the torque is transferred through the frictional contact. I'll give you another extreme example to show how well this works. I used to be the Engineering Officer on a Canadian frigate (in the US Navy, you would refer to me as the Chief Engineer). Each propeller shaft on that class of frigate is made up of multiple sections. Each section is bolted to the next with just 12 bolts (I can't tell you exactly how big the bolts are, but not very). These shafts are driven by 25,000 hp gas turbine engines. If the bolts weren't tightened correctly, the torque of the gas turbines would instantly shear all the bolts like toothpicks. But in normal running they don't shear simply because the bolts are only there to supply the "normal" force between two surfaces (you'll have to remember your high school physics class), ensuring the torque transfer is achieved by the friction. Bolts are rarely designed to work in shear, but instead, they are great for clamping two surfaces together.
I was just being picky with the Engineering.
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 06-15-2015).]
A lot of people overlook that simple fact - the bulk of the mechanical work is done by friction between the hub flanges. The hub itself can help absorb shock which is why hubcentric wheels can prevent vibration, but that is the extent of that function. If the entire weight of the car was supported by a few square mm of hub there would be some durability issues. The fasteners are there to support lateral loads, and the way in which an adapter might fail is laterally - such as a stud pulling through the adapter or a bolt pulling out of a thread. Since the adapter is certainly as thick as the hub of a wheel (and quite possibly thicker), it's safe to say that isn't much of a concern. No more than your lug nuts pulling through your wheels, anyway. There is some argument to be said about changing bolt patterns - there is some voodoo that leads manufacturers to choose 5x100 or 5x120 that nobody seems to understand, though I read something about PCD decisions being made for lateral stability, maybe weight related. And there is the consideration of stud size - going from a 14mm 5-bolt circle on, say, an Audi to a 12mm 4-bolt circle on a Honda would be a substantial loss of lateral strength, but that's not what we're talking about here.
An "opinion" is just that... an opinion. I don't have to agree with it. You have one, Roger has one, I have one.
Roger and I have appeared in perhaps a dozen threads where this topic has been discussed in the last four years or so. There's no animosity between us. I was just teasing Roger when I said I "knew" he'd turn up. I'd be disappointed if he didn't.
At least were both consistent in our opinions, neither of us has wavered a bit. I base my opinion on my own uses of them, and customers that damaged their cars using them. I never have a problem with differences of opinion. Where I do get the problem is when someone says im absolutely wrong and dont know what Im talking about. I just state my own experience. I wont have them on any car I own.
I have 2" spacers on the back of mine, the cost of the spacers was considerably less than having custom rims made. Since I won't ever have this car over 55, and it'll see less than 100mis a year I have no problem with using them. If I were to race this car I would have concerns about them but I won't be.
Spacers (the way I call them) are just 'washers' with holes in them. The studs come thru the hub, thru the spacer...then the wheel where the nut is. So if you have 2" spacers, your wheel/axle studs are around 3" long. Im guessing you really have adapters that bolt onto the existing studs and have another set of studs the wheel fastens to. The second set of studs may or may not be the same bolt pattern as the original. I have no problem with using 'spacers', but Id be nervous of 3"-4" long wheel studs. Normally I wont use more than 1/4"-3/8" spacers. They do use spacers on race cars as they are legal. Most series ive ever know of dont allow adapters. This came up recently and SCCA rules I looked up didnt say adapters were legal, but spacers were.
Spacers (the way I call them) are just 'washers' with holes in them. The studs come thru the hub, thru the spacer...then the wheel where the nut is. So if you have 2" spacers, your wheel/axle studs are around 3" long. Im guessing you really have adapters that bolt onto the existing studs and have another set of studs the wheel fastens to. The second set of studs may or may not be the same bolt pattern as the original. I have no problem with using 'spacers', but Id be nervous of 3"-4" long wheel studs. Normally I wont use more than 1/4"-3/8" spacers. They do use spacers on race cars as they are legal. Most series ive ever know of dont allow adapters. This came up recently and SCCA rules I looked up didnt say adapters were legal, but spacers were.
