A "professional mechanic" told him there was something wrong with the steering column internally. Here I was thinking the tilt ball was loose or something. It was more serious. See here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/135687.html#p8
Now, the steering mis-diagnosis I can let go. It wasn't until we had the column out that we found it had NO looseness in it. We then check the intermediate shaft and discovered the excessive looseness of the pinion shaft.
However, the same "professional mechanic" told him his 88 Fiero "needs new motor mounts". When he came to get it after the steering rack was fixed, we lifted the car and checked underneath.
We found fairly new motor mounts on the transmission (both) and the bolts and nuts haven't even got corrosion on them! (plating is still shiny) The front engine mount is a newer poly mount (looks like Dickman's) replacing the factory fluid unit they used in 1988. Even the dogbone is a new OEM looking unit - rubber is solid and there's no movement there either.
Not sure what the hell the mechanic was actually looking at - IF he even bothered looking. Maybe he just saw a "young guy" customer who didn't know anything about his Fiero.
Apparently, the mechanic doesn't know anything about the Fiero (or maybe cars in general) either!! I mean, the only other possibility was that he is a potential thief charging for work that isn't needed (or maybe not even done) ...
This stuff is so upsetting to me. Just recently I found the "professional mechanics" who installed the 3.4pr in my Fiero (before it was mine) broke a screw on the distributor cap, only had one screw in the ICM, and zero thermal paste. Other issues too, those were the latest. A couple years ago I drove down to SoCal to replace a "broken intake manifold" on my MIL's PT Cruiser only to find the problem was a bad ignition coil. I am decent with tools but HARDLY some automotive genius. When I find stuff that the so-called pros totally missed or completely misdiagnosed it makes me furious. I should never be better at this stuff than a paid expert.
It really puts things in perspective though. Can you imagine being one of those people with a car who had to rely on such people to get them to work and to pick up the kids? I'm not slighting all mechanics - there are LOTS of good ones - but how does the average Joe distinguish one from the other until it's WAY too late?
Originally posted by thesameguy: A couple years ago I drove down to SoCal to replace a "broken intake manifold" on my MIL's PT Cruiser only to find the problem was a bad ignition coil. I am decent with tools but HARDLY some automotive genius. When I find stuff that the so-called pros totally missed or completely misdiagnosed it makes me furious. I should never be better at this stuff than a paid expert.
Obviously, being paid does not necessarily make one an expert. This example is even worse, as the PT Cruiser is an OBD-II car, so a bad ignition coil would have set the CEL, and a half decent scan tool should show at least one ignition code, if not multiple, which any service manual would instruct the tech to further diagnose by testing plugs, wires, and coil(s).
I don't know how one would even get to "broken intake manifold" from an ignition problem, without even verifying that there is a vacuum leak.
I don't know how one would even get to "broken intake manifold" from an ignition problem, without even verifying that there is a vacuum leak.
That's actually a fun story. They quoted something like $400 to replace the intake manifold. The upper manifolds actually fail on these cars, they are two pieces of plastic glued together and the joint fails. The lowers are one piece and never fail. Replacing the upper is a $200 job, parts and labor, but they said they couldn't tell whether it was the upper or lower so they wanted to replace both. I would have gone for a $200 repair, but at $400 it was cheaper for me to drive down and fix it myself by a couple hundred bucks. So when I went to pick up the car I asked them how they diagnosed the problem, smoke machine, pressure tester, etc. "Nope, we don't have that, we spray carb cleaner everywhere and if the idle changes we know we have a leak." Um, that's great on a '72 Dart but the Chrysler 2.4s have silicone seals between the halves of the intake manifold and carb cleaner will kill them in short order. The reason they couldn't tell if it was the upper or lower was because they created the leak themselves right in the middle. I was disgusted and took the car.
When I got the hood up, I pulled the codes (misfire cylinder 2 & 4) and then started poking around. I could literally see the swollen manifold seals oozing out of the joint, so I took them off. All eight were completely messed up, but I couldn't find any separation on the manifolds whatsoever. $20 to the Chrysler dealer for new seals and I put it back together. Still wasn't right, but after unplugging the #2 and #4 injector and finding NO DIFFERENCE in how it ran I knew it was either the injectors or the coils... Since it was unlikely the two injectors failed and more likely the #2/#4 coil (it's wasted spark) failed, I got a new coil. Hey, whaddaya know, all better. Literally 10 minutes of diagnosis followed by four screws and a plug.
I drove the thing back over to the shop and called the manager out on the floor in front of like five customers. "How do you people sleep at night charging old ladies $400 for non-problems? What would you have done when you found it still didn't run right? How do you people call yourselves professionals not knowing what carb cleaner does to silicone and not investing in the proper tools to work on modern cars?" The guy barely apologized, like making giant mistakes was just part of the job. I hope they lost business that day. So. Awful.
In case anyone cares, the name of the place is Brake Pros in Rancho Cucamonga, CA. Why anyone would take a general repair to a place called Brake Pros is beyond me, but by the same token why a company would take on a job they are clearly incapable of performing is a far worse travesty.
I think the mech. saw the new mounts , said he needed mounts so that the job was done on word without looking underneath and the mech. wouldn't do any work and say he put those mounts on and charge money. So many crooks.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
It's like the crappy contractor I had after hurricane Sandy. Well, any construction person I've had at my house for that matter.
What it all comes down to is that nobody cares about your stuff as much as you do. Everybody's work has to be questioned and checked to make sure the right thing was done or gets done. That's why I do everything myself now. I'm not great at stuff but at least I know things weren't half-assed.
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 06-04-2015).]
I worked as a heavy equipment mechanic for 30yrs, and you wouldn't believe some of the things I've seen done by other so called mechanics. The difference between a good mechanic and a poor mechanic is that when I made a mistake the customer did not get charged for it, and I never sold work that was not needed. The biggest problem with a lot of mechanics is that they don't know what they are doing. I've tried to train a lot of mechanics over the years and most of them had no idea of basic mechanics. Now with all the specialty tools needed the problem is increased by greedy owners that won't invest back into the company for equipment needed.
I got contacted by another guy in our area about problems he's having with his 3800 S/C swap. Not a member of our Local Club or PFF as far as I can tell... But they manage to find us with their problems afterwards....
I haven't seen the car yet - looking at it tomorrow (June 15)
It seems his car was in 2 shops - sounds like neither of which knew what they were doing. One did the 3800 S/C swap - having never done one before. Also swapped the 4-speed out to a 5-speed. ECM supposedly was reprogrammed to remove items that don't belong. No dogbone was installed, "engine ran rough" etc. and subsequently broke the motor mounts.
He gets fed up, arguments ensue and he takes his car out of there. It goes to ANOTHER shop and they replace the engine because the first one is knocking. They fix the motor mounts and shift cables that were all wrong and tried to fixed what the first shop did. Don't know what else they puttered around with. "Engine still runs rough".
In any event he doesn't know if the engine that's in there now was any good to start with.
BUT - I'd bet money that they installed a neutral balanced flywheel on the thing! No wonder it runs rough! In addition, "it doesn't shift right". I'm thinking the flywheel wasn't machined to the right thickness either. Probably the pressure plate was "knocking" on something inside the bellhousing.
He also has a host of electrical gremlins now with dash lights, speedo, oil pressure gauge etc.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-17-2015).]
Hope you can help him out, most mechanics aren't bad, just seems to be a lot that are ignorant. I've been retired for 2 1/2 yrs and they still call me from work when they get in over their heads
Many years ago, I dropped the Mustang that we owned off at a Canadian Tire in Calgary for a new set of tires and went off to do some other shopping etc. I had left the house number (this predates cell phones) in case there were any issues. An hour or two later they called the house, and my mother answered. They told her that the car needed a new alternator and asked if it was ok for them to change it. Of course she didn't have the first clue about cars and told them to go ahead and replace it. When I came back to pick up the car I was floored by the bill. They said they had changed the alternator, with permission. I told them that I guarantee it didn't need a new alternator, but the argument went nowhere. I went out to the car and decided to look at the "new alternator". Well guess what. I had accidently marked the side of the alternator with a yellow paint pen when I was adjusting something a few months earlier. Amazingly, my new alternator also had the exact same mark, in the same spot, with a yellow paint pen... I made as big as scene as I could, even demanding to see the old alternator...but of course "they had already thrown it out!". You can imagine the yelling that went on. I have never used a Canadian Tire for service since that day. It sickens me that even a large chain store can be that unethical.
Man, that is particularly bad. I've seen shops change allegedly bad parts to earn a good labor bill, but at least they install the new part to cover their tracks. Just leaving the thing as it was is a particularly bad type of unethical... it's stupid unethical. I can't speak for elsewhere, but in California that would give you grounds for not paying the bill - a shop must present the removed parts to the customer upon completion of the job or they're in violation of Bureau of Automotive Repair rules. I've helped people get out of more than one questionable charge when a shop has failed to honor their obligations in this way. Sometimes they counter with "well, we sent it off for a core," and of course I tell them that's fine, I just need to see it before paying the bill, so please go ahead and get it or remove the charge.
One thing that seems to be happening a lot these days is unnecessary fluid flushes. "Oh, you need this $300 service for the good of your car." A shop got my dad on that a few years back, so when he told me what happened I went by his place and took a half pint of "brand new" auto transmission fluid of his Saab. Stuff was pitch black, like you'd expect for 120,000 mile old transmission fluid ("lifetime fill") and not 12 mile old fluid. I put half of it in a glass jar and kept the other half, then drove with him over to the shop and asked them to cop to their scam or I'd send the other half to Blackstone for analysis and then get the BAR involved. Dude got his manager, refunded the charge, and then flushed the fluid for real. I am pretty sure they also scammed him when he brought 5qts of Mobil 1 5w-40 and a Mobil 1 filter in for an oil change, and the next time I saw the car there was some cheap-ass "Proline" filter on the motor. I was furious, but my dad couldn't remember whether or not there'd been an interim oil change or not. I'm sure there wasn't, and some oil change jockey made off with $50 worth of Mobil 1 products. My dad is not a quick learner.
Originally posted by thesameguy: My dad is not a quick learner.
Unfortunately, as people get older, they become much easier to scam. My dad is 73 and has had his share of stupid actions in the last couple of years. Definitely nothing he would have allowed to happen twenty years ago. Fortunately, he now calls me for advice before he does most (unfortunately not all) completely idiotic things.
Interesting story about Canadian Tire Corp in Calgary. For some reason the one on Barlow Trail is the scam store of the city. I went there some years ago after installing inner tie rods on my kids Mazda van. When I came back later it was done - I had asked for a 2 wheel alignment (it's basically a truck with nothing to mess with in the rear) - and I got nailed for a 4 wheel alignment they claimed was done. CTC gives a before and after printout with their bills, but these guys wouldn't. They claimed you have to ask for it. The van was sitting in the same spot I left it and after complaining about the charges, I went outside to cool off. I looked at the wheels and there were no marks in the dust to indicate any alignment equipment was even mounted on any of the wheels. I went inside and paid the bill, went back to the vehicle and called my credit card to have the charges removed for fraudulent service. 9 yrs later I still have the CTC bill on my cork board at home waiting for a call.
Apparently this particular store does a lot of this sort of thing. There's a reason every store is called Crap Tire. Places like this tar everyone with the same brush.
I used to work part time at Canadian Tire in Winnipeg while doing my teacher ed. I have a few clues as to their sell sell sell mentality. I am a licensed mechanic and CTC hires way too many people who merely own a wrench.
Pete
[This message has been edited by thx569 (edited 06-15-2015).]
I got contacted by another guy in our area about problems he's having with his 3800 S/C swap. Not a member of our Local Club or PFF as far as I can tell... But they manage to find us with their problems afterwards....
I haven't seen the car yet - looking at it tomorrow (June 15)
... He also has a host of electrical gremlins now with dash lights, speedo, oil pressure gauge etc.
Saw the car. Some spark plug wires were wrong - hence the "runs really rough"... Engine feels fairly smooth after we fixed that. No heavy vibrations that I could feel. Vacuum lines are wrong - so engine was hunting all over the place. Made one change and it made a big difference, but need to check vacuum diagram.
Engine leaking oil - looks like bad drain plug gasket. Maybe same problem on transmission. Apparently speedo does not work. He says they lost speedo gear on VSS unit. Back up light switch has wires cut off - so no backup lights working.
Electrical problems are likely due to engine harness being wired to car harness wrong. That will take time to fix. He said "Check Engine Light" was on before shop "fixed" it.. (he thinks shop removed bulb or cut the line) Looked for ALDL connector to plug into OBD2 scanner - can't find it anywhere!!! (did they just cut it off????)
Going back today to get vacuum lines, leaks and other minor items sorted out to get it drivable. Thank god it appears flywheel is right! But we'll know more once we take it for a drive today.
It's like the crappy contractor I had after hurricane Sandy. Well, any construction person I've had at my house for that matter.
What it all comes down to is that nobody cares about your stuff as much as you do. Everybody's work has to be questioned and checked to make sure the right thing was done or gets done. That's why I do everything myself now. ...
I wish that the world knew of my honesty, integrity, and respect that I have when it comes to work. Perhaps too much for others tastes? I know an incredible amount about a home. While not a Master Craftsman, I understand the meaning of the words, I do consider my work in the top 95%. I consider this because I have been told it. More than once. Perhaps I should consider another avenue of employment again? I am tired of working for nefarious people wrapped in their own self worth.
That's the big problem with anything now days, NO one takes pride in their work any more. I guess all of us that did are retired now
The problem is that people that do good work are expensive as are the quality products. There are always people out there that will do the min. because that is what they are paid to do. Remember, government projects are given to the lowest bidder.... and look at the roads
Those who do quality work will be outbid by those who just do the min. Why work harder when you still get the pay? (that is the mindset)
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 06-16-2015).]
The guy sounds like a half ass mechanic who doesn't have a clue. The industry is loaded with these types of individuals. .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I never take my car in to do an work ever no matter what except for tire related tasks and occasionally an alignment (usually at the same time). I have always gone to the NTB near me, and they charge a very decent amount to align the Fiero, but they do a really good job getting camber and everything right even before I had camber bolts, and the alignment is good for 6 months of free re-alignment if anything gets messed up.
However, with my new to me 02 WRX I was less picky about who did my alignment since it is a more modern car.
I price matched at Town Fair Tire a set of winter tires, so I had them installed there. The package included a free front end alignment, and there was a $50 option to add a 4 wheel alignment. Well when I got the print out back I saw that they only adjusted the front toe, and they adjusted it the same amount on both sides, and in essence just changed the neutral wheel angle. Well they messed it up! my alignment went from perfect to having a crooked steering wheel! And they had charged me the extra $50 for a 4 wheel alignment!
I went back and I asked to have the $50 charge removed since they only adjusted the front toe and they had messed it up. They said no because they couldn't adjust the front toe without putting all the alignment equipment on the rear too. So how are the supposed to do a free front end alignment??? I got really mad that they charged me an additional amount of money to do a service I had already paid for, and on top of that they did nothing but make the alignment worse. All I wanted was to get the 4 wheels aligned properly so my snow tires would last.
I have had enough bad experiences with Town Fair Tire to never go back.
If for some reason I was injured and could not do the work myself, I would make sure to tell any shop replacing parts that I want to see my old parts when they are finished.
This culture of taking the easy way out and only understanding the bare minimum infuriates me. Doing things right takes time, effort, and understanding. And if you are being paid money to do something right, you better do it right.
That's the big problem with anything now days, NO one takes pride in their work any more. I guess all of us that did are retired now
I am 23 and I have been working as a mechanical engineer for a year, and I have been an avid gear head for as long as I can remember. I also had a few brief stints at being a heavy truck mechanic. I take pride in everything I do, whether it is at work, for my own car or project, or for someone else's car. Many of my close friends are very similar and give everything they do 100%. If something is worth doing, it is worth overdoing. There is still some hope for the youth.
I am surrounded by those who don't care about the means, just the end, because when the end result is money, why should they care about the means? Because what could be more important than all the stuff you can now buy? (sarcasm)
The guy sounds like a half ass mechanic who doesn't have a clue. The industry is loaded with these types of individuals. .
SO TRUE. They are MORE than willing "Sure, we can do that engine swap in your Fiero - no problem..." without ever having worked on a STOCK Fiero before. And it's apparent they don't do research, because they'd eventually stumble onto PFF and get information on HOW to do the swap here!!
To most of these shops, an "engine swap" is installing a new V8 crate motor in a Mustang/Camaro/Challenger that had a straight-6. Of course once they're WAY in over their heads on the Fiero, they sure aren't going to admit it. Then as they realize they will be losing $$$ (because they quoted a fixed price) and it starts taking longer and longer to do the job, the quality of the work gets worse and worse.
Oddly, once the engine is in the Fiero, they can't even diagnose easy BASIC engine stuff - like the spark plug wires are wrong, or the thermostat is stuck ("it's something wrong with the car" ).
I looked at the 3800 S/C again. Fixed the leaks (transmission and oil pan drain plugs needed new gaskets - oil pan plug didn't even have one). I suspect the "rebuilt transmission" is just a repainted transmission with new axle seals. The oil in it looked pretty black and watered down, and we put new synchromesh oil in it. I adjusted the shift cable. Clutch action looks good, but it looks like they modified the banjo (made it a bit longer I think).
Engine starts and idles great!! And it's smooth - when owner told me "it runs really rough" I was sure they F%^$&#UP the flywheel (the shop couldn't even get the spark plug wires right??). He mentioned engine overheats. So we ran it until the temp gauge hit the red. It appears thermostat is stuck closed, because coolant pipe from thermostat housing stayed cold (as did radiator). He will change that today.
So afterwards I'm looking at the engine in the engine bay and it "does not sit square". It's a Getrag 5-speed and instead of buying stock transmission mounts, they made their own!?!? Damn - don't you get your transmission located, then build your front engine mount to suit??? (I think they did it the other way around). Or who knows what "logic" - if any - they used.
Subsequently the passenger side of engine is a bit higher than it should be, and engine is not straight either. Once stock transmission mounts are put in, front motor mount will have to changed to move the front of the engine forward/backward to get it centered. Of course, he CAN'T just do that now, because exhaust is built with "engine in the wrong place". It will need to be taken off and modified/rebuilt after engine is shifted.
And don't get started on the engine wiring harness that is hard-wired to the car's harness (no disconnect points as original harness had). Owner says when he pushes brake, dash lights come on!!!
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-17-2015).]
That's the big problem with anything now days, NO one takes pride in their work any more. I guess all of us that did are retired now
It's not about taking pride or not. It's about the saying work smarter, not harder. Plenty of people do crappy work and take pride in it. All that does is give them an inflated ego and the inability to see their own mistakes or take responsibility for them. One need not be self-indulgently proud of their own work, to do good work. I'd rather have others be proud of my work, than to be proud of my own work. Working smarter means doing it right the first time, so you don't have to do it again, and finding ways to improve the process so that when you do have to do similar work again (on another customer's car for example), you can do it more efficiently.
It's not about taking pride or not. It's about the saying work smarter, not harder. Plenty of people do crappy work and take pride in it.
Agreed. Many don't know what a crappy job they are doing.
I bet the shops that worked on that 3800S/C swap above, and basically "gave up" doing it right at some point, still THINK they did a pretty good job - "it's just that the Fiero is a crap car to work on..."
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-18-2015).]
Originally posted by fierosound: I bet the shops that worked on that 3800S/C swap above, and basically "gave up" doing it right at some point, still THINK they did a pretty good job - "it's just that the Fiero is a crap car to work on..."
I run into this a lot in all walks of life - "I was prevented from doing a good job because the pieces involved suck."
Admittedly, sometimes it's true. But so very, very rarely. It's just a very good cop out.
Originally posted by thesameguy: I run into this a lot in all walks of life - "I was prevented from doing a good job because the pieces involved suck."
Admittedly, sometimes it's true. But so very, very rarely. It's just a very good cop out.
It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools.
While there are certainly cases where the tools or materials being used are insufficiently qualified for the task, the correct way to deal with it when your customer provides those insufficient materials, is to communicate with the customer and inform them of the problem, suggest the proper course of action (the one that will save you the most time, cost the customer the least, and correctly solve the problem), and get the customer's approval to move forward.
Are you sure about that? I am pretty certain the correct approach is kludge everything together, bury the evidence, create highly detailed and wandering explanation of what transpired, then pray nobody ever looks while you practice the mantra, "It wasn't my fault, it was a dumb project."
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 06-19-2015).]
It appears the "rebuilt transmission" was rebuilt using a can of black spray paint... Another one of our guys who did a 3800 S/C swap last year test drove this fellow's car last night with him. He says synchros are shot and transmission bearings are howling.
So now the owner has to "fix" the work of the "professionals"... 1. get another transmission and drop cradle 2. change transmission mounts - redo front engine mount. 3. remove power steering pump to use location for alternator 4. rework routing of coolant hoses (through alternator bracket now) 5. get new dogbone bracket arrangement (off alternator bracket now) 6. redo exhaust (no muffler at all, only 2 LOUD resonators) 7. fix wiring issues throughout car 8. find another decklid (support rib was hacked up for alternator)
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-19-2015).]
Originally posted by fierosound: 8. find another decklid (support rib was hacked up for alternator)
Do you have a pic of this? I'm curious what you mean by "hacked up" here, as I've seen multiple cases where the decklid rib had to be notched for clearance for engine swaps. So I'm wondering how bad this one really is, or if the decklid is fine, but just has the ugly notching there.
Do you have a pic of this? I'm curious what you mean by "hacked up" here, as I've seen multiple cases where the decklid rib had to be notched for clearance for engine swaps. So I'm wondering how bad this one really is, or if the decklid is fine, but just has the ugly notching there.
".... ugly notching there." <<<<--- This
There's better ways to mount the alternator you don't have to touch the decklid.
It appears the "rebuilt transmission" was rebuilt using a can of black spray paint...
This seems to be all too common. I had a friend who worked as a mechanic at Canadian Tire (yes...I going to bash them again...). He discovered that they would re-core used radiators, spray paint them, and then sell them as new. He also confirmed that it was common practice at the time to make up jobs to be done on cars since they got paid by the job. Not sure if that is the way business is done now, but I'll only use mechanics (specifically dealerships) for warranty work, tires and alignments. Everything else can be done myself. As for my friend...he couldn't sleep at night, and was getting an ulcer from the lack of ethics at CTC. He quit and started his own garage
I made as big as scene as I could, even demanding to see the old alternator...but of course "they had already thrown it out!". You can imagine the yelling that went on. I have never used a Canadian Tire for service since that day. It sickens me that even a large chain store can be that unethical.
I am tired of working for nefarious people wrapped in their own self worth. 
