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1988 Fiero GT 41k original miles oil change by FGT88
Started on: 05-27-2015 09:06 PM
Replies: 11 (377 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 05-29-2015 06:01 PM
FGT88
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Report this Post05-27-2015 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FGT88Send a Private Message to FGT88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I live in Arizona what's a good oil to use out here? I have 41k original miles should I go 5w 30? 10w 30 ?full synthetic or half and half? or normal motor oil?
Thanks
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Patrick
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Report this Post05-27-2015 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Whatever you use, don't forget the required zinc additive (for the flat tappets).
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plane
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Report this Post05-27-2015 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for planeClick Here to Email planeSend a Private Message to planeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I really like the Valvoline VR1 line. It is the last of the high zinc oils. I use it in my Fiero race car. Regular or Synthetic - 10-30 should be fine.
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dbober
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Report this Post05-28-2015 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dboberClick Here to visit dbober's HomePageSend a Private Message to dboberEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used Mobil 1 for about 20 years, and I autocross my car. Switched to Brad Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil. No need for any zinc additives:

http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pr...i_detailpage_o03_s00
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zzzhuh
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Report this Post05-28-2015 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


Whatever you use, don't forget the required zinc additive (for the flat tappets).


Mmm debatable. Should you use zinc? Probably, but that is a bigger concern for engines that need to be broken in. Zinc actually wears down Cat. converters. Here is a video that talks about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xILCJc2o_L8

(Sorry, I don't know how to make the actual video show up.)

I have been using Mobil 1 high Mileage full synthetic and my car runs fine.
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jaskispyder
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Report this Post05-29-2015 07:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it was me, I would just run Mobil 1 5W-30 or high mileage Mobil 1 5w-30 (I believe it has more zinc, if that matters to you).

I have used Mobil 1 in my Fieros for decades with no issues.
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My88RedGT
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Report this Post05-29-2015 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for My88RedGTSend a Private Message to My88RedGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I live in the Arizona desert as well and use Mobile 1 5w-30 and Wix filter in my stock 88 GT all year long. I change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. I know I probably change it more often than what is needed, but it never hurts to run clean oil. It only gets changed maybe twice a calendar year.
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Patrick
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Report this Post05-29-2015 03:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dbober:

No need for any zinc additives

Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils


Well yeah, there is... but they're already in this oil apparently.

The point I'm making is that zinc additives are required for engines with flat tappets to reduce cam lobe wear. Some oils already have the zinc added, other oils don't and need to be supplemented if used with engines such as the 2.8 found in our Fieros.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-29-2015).]

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thesameguy
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Report this Post05-29-2015 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd really love to see the science and statistics about zinc additives. I've never run an additive on any car I've owned and never suffered any sort of cam wear. I could see zinc being a necessity on an engine with really stiff valve springs or really dramatic lift, but problems on your average street motor seem unlikely. I mean, Jiffy Lube puts crap oil in every single car they service and you don't hear about millions of ten year old cars suffering cam failures as a result. Maybe in an absolute sense zinc is better, and maybe in an extreme application zinc is required, but average car doing average service over an average life? I'm skeptical. I've got hundreds of thousands of miles on old flat tappet engines (I own a lot of old cars!) and none of them have any wear. Admittedly, I tend to use higher zinc oils (like Mobil 1 High Mileage), but it's hardly exclusive... and it's not levels of zinc like old oils.

Personally - no science - I feel like the zinc thing is blown out of proportion so that manufacturers have an opening to sell additives. Like the world-ending lead problem or engine-destroying ethanol problem. Neither great, but after all the hoopla it turns out problems are very rare. My 1962 Falcon ran on its original valve seats for nearly 40 years after unleaded gas was supposed to have destroyed it. And it died of ring failure! I remember an engineer friend taunting me about the impending doom of my Saab back in the '90s. I sold that car to a friend and then bought it back in 2009 after it hit a deer. Never had any engine problems. This is all anecdotes, of course, but it definitely feeds my skepticism.
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Patrick
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Report this Post05-29-2015 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I'd really love to see the science and statistics about zinc additives.


It's out there for anyone who wishes to look for it.
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thesameguy
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Report this Post05-29-2015 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've read a LOT, believe me. And while there's no doubt about the science of zinc and wear, there are no statistics about real-world results from modern engine oils. Lots of stories about "no zinc killed my engine" just like my stories about "no zinc had no effect," but there isn't any science about increases in oil-related cam wear since '94, when they started decreasing zinc content in automotive engine oils (the adoption the API's SH designation). Twenty years of Camry owners going to Jiffy Lube and never having heard of ZDDP seems like the potential for an entire industry to spring up making camshafts for Camrys... and it hasn't happened.

There was an article in some automotive trade magazine I read a few months ago while getting my car smogged, suggesting that the effects of zinc loss have been far less than expected. The article attributed the fact to the nature of the problem in the first place: Zinc is primarily a consideration during initial start, before oil is flowing through the engine and there is abnormal metal-to-metal contact. Once the engine is running, the usefulness of zinc more or less disappears - or, at least it should. If you do a lot of short trips, with lots of stops & starts, no zinc could be a significant problem. But for most people who starts their car maybe 2-3 times per day on the outside, engine start damage just doesn't add up to much over the lifetime of a car. Using a quality oil of a proper viscosity for the climate plus a quality filter with a lasting anti-drainback valve mitigates the cold start problem significantly - so perhaps that is in play with my engines as well.

On the other side of the equation - opposite the "more wear" concern - reduced zinc levels improve catalytic converter life and reduced phosphorus limits carbon buildup in bores and valve trains. Those are definitely desirable.

Bear in mind I'm talking about not-new, stock engines. For breaking in an engine, I'm 100% behind adding zinc. There is a lot of potential for wear there and zinc will mitigate that. For a high-po engine with stiff valve springs and high lift where that cold start period can truly be hell, zinc makes sense as well.

But a stock motor with squishy springs and sane lift, there just aren't any statistics that I have found to support the idea that zinc is actually all that important. If you've found some, I'd love to read them. But I've tried & failed.

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Report this Post05-29-2015 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went off trying to find any statistics and still can't, but found this from Joe Gibbs, and I think largely echoes what I was saying:

 
quote
Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

Many people have had good success with premium API licensed products in stock engine applications (as well they should). However, this can create a false perception that API licensed oils should work in every application, but this is simply not the case. When you go beyond normal valve lift, operating temperatures and cylinder pressures, the oil formula needs to adapt to these “new” requirements.


http://www.drivenracingoil....s/zinc-in-motor-oil/

It's a great article as whole, well worth the read. Also of note:

 
quote
There is a lot of hype over a lot of products, but only one real truth – proper balance is what makes an oil right for an application.

A perfect example of proper balance can be seen is an API SN motor oil. While this spec oil is limited to 800 ppm of a catalytic converter friendly ZDDP, an API SN oil can break in a flat tappet camshaft. The flat tappet cam in question has less than .400 valve lift and no more than 215 psi valve spring pressure. So an API SN oil will protect a flat tappet cam, but you won’t see success trying to break in a Big Block Chevy cam with over .500 valve lift and over 300 psi valve spring pressure with an API SN oil. It is the different demands of the valve train loads that dictate what balance is required to protect.


Again, Joe Gibbs - who sells high-ZDDP oil and ZDDP additives - suggests that it's only aggressive cams/valvetrain scenarios that are truly at risk from API SH++ oils. That echoes what I've read elsewhere, and supports my position that on a Fiero with any stock motor any API-licensed quality oil will do you fine. This site also presents the science which supports that claim.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 05-29-2015).]

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