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3800 swap project...which fuel injectors should i use? by OHNIKO
Started on: 05-15-2015 03:35 PM
Replies: 16 (1224 views)
Last post by: bmwguru on 06-04-2015 03:31 PM
OHNIKO
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Report this Post05-15-2015 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OHNIKOClick Here to Email OHNIKOSend a Private Message to OHNIKOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's the set up & upgrades:


1998 series 2 3800 (L67) & 4t65E auto HD tranny from buick regal gs
2007 gen 5 supercharger with N* TB & spacer
2007 LIM
2000 N* MAF
3.25" zzp pulley
XP Hot Cam
walbro hi-flo fuel pump
105# comp cam valve springs, pushrods, lifters, mod retainers
zzp 1" short stack intercooler
colder plugs: NGK TR6 V-power
zzp 10mm plug wires
stock heads
cold air intake
low mount alternator


QUESTION(S):

a) which size will work best for my set up? (I believe the stock 33/36 # injectors are not adequate from what I've heard.) Someone suggested 42.5. Is any higher overkill or detrimental?
what are your similar set-ups using?

i.e.
bosch http://shop.zzperformance.c...ant-Injectors-6.aspx
or lucas http://shop.zzperformance.c...cas-Injectors-6.aspx

b) will I need anything else fuel injector related? don't want to place multiple orders if I can help it

c) any alternative sources u recommend?


thanks people!

Nick

[This message has been edited by OHNIKO (edited 06-01-2015).]

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nosrac
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Report this Post05-15-2015 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
stock injectors with 3.25 pulley on premium gas. One you drop to 3.0 and under then you need to upgrade to 42.5#
However, if you plan on running e-85 go 60# from the jump.
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bmwguru
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Report this Post05-16-2015 04:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by OHNIKO:

Here's the set up & upgrades:


1998 series 2 3800 (L67) & 4t65E auto HD tranny from buick regal gs
2007 gen 5 supercharger with N* TB & spacer
2000 N* MAF
3.25" zzp pulley
XP Hot Cam
walbro hi-flo fuel pump
105# comp cam valve springs, pushrods, lifters, mod retainers
zzp 1" short stack intercooler
colder plugs: NGK TR6 V-power
zzp 10mm plug wires
stock heads
cold air intake
low mount alternator


QUESTION(S):

a) which size will work best for my set up? (I believe the stock 33/36 # injectors are not adequate from what I've heard.) Someone suggested 42.5. Is any higher overkill or detrimental?
what are your similar set-ups using?

i.e.
bosch http://shop.zzperformance.c...ant-Injectors-6.aspx
or lucas http://shop.zzperformance.c...cas-Injectors-6.aspx

b) will I need anything else fuel injector related? don't want to place multiple orders if I can help it

c) any alternative sources u recommend?


thanks people!

Nick


With a gen V blower and 3.25 pulley, stock injectors will be too small. The 42.5 ones should work fine. Just keep an eye on the duty cycle when logging. You'll want to stay around 85% at full throttle. You'll also need to get some better exhaust with that setup.

Dave
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OHNIKO
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Report this Post05-25-2015 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OHNIKOClick Here to Email OHNIKOSend a Private Message to OHNIKOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thank you very much gentlemen.
either brand works then? (I don't know reputations on either of the ones I saw...)

these work? http://shop.zzperformance.c...-60-Injectors-6.aspx

only $5 more for higher capacity vs the 42.5#.....nothing detrimental effects on 'oversizing' so to speak?

[This message has been edited by OHNIKO (edited 05-25-2015).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post05-26-2015 04:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 60 lb injectors may be too much for your system. I would recommend sizing the injectors properly rather than going by what everyone else is doing. Like I said before, my 42.5 lb injectors were gong static and I calculated that the 52lb ones would be ideal for what I need. I datalog just about every time I drive the car and there are key things I look at in the scan.
Dave
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post05-26-2015 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Siemens Deka 60# Injectors will work fine in this application. They will actually provide a better idle quality than the Lucas 42.5 injectors due to having a better spray pattern and quicker response time (based on my own personal experience using both of these injectors on my own engine).

I would get the 60's if it was my car. They will work fine for you so long as the PCM is tuned properly to work with them. I can't think of any SC or Turbo application where I would recommend Lucas 42.5 injectors over the Siemens Deka 60# Injectors.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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OHNIKO
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Report this Post05-27-2015 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OHNIKOClick Here to Email OHNIKOSend a Private Message to OHNIKOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
jolly good & thanks for your input
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OHNIKO
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Report this Post06-01-2015 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OHNIKOClick Here to Email OHNIKOSend a Private Message to OHNIKOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
there's 2 different style connectors; standard ev1 & ev6...which version?

I think ev1 but want to check with u

any one know?

[This message has been edited by OHNIKO (edited 06-01-2015).]

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post06-01-2015 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Series 2 SC engines came with injectors that used the EV1 style connectors which appear rectangular with square corners.

Series 3 SC engines came with injectors that used the EV6 style connectors which appear more oval (square with rounded corners).

You can zoom in on the injector connector style picture on ZZP's website and see which each type looks like. Just match them up with the injectors you have now.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-02-2015 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Running the stock #33 injectors with a Gen V and 3.4" pulley but no cam. I thought that I was pushing the edge with these (but still in the green), now Dave's comments has me concerned. As soon as the rain passes, out comes the scanner.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post06-03-2015 12:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Running the stock #33 injectors with a Gen V and 3.4" pulley but no cam. I thought that I was pushing the edge with these (but still in the green), now Dave's comments has me concerned. As soon as the rain passes, out comes the scanner.



As long as your WOT AFR's are richer than 12.0:1 and your injector PW isn't exceeding 21ms, you are fine with what you have for injectors.
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bmwguru
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Report this Post06-03-2015 04:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


As long as your WOT AFR's are richer than 12.0:1 and your injector PW isn't exceeding 21ms, you are fine with what you have for injectors.


my WOT AFR was 11.3-11.5 and my duty cycle was over 95%. I tried to upgrade the pump first, but it still didn't help. I also have a 3.0 pulley on a Gen V supercharger and I'm running around 16 degrees of timing at WOT with no KR....on 93 octane. After the injectors were upgraded, the numbers looked much better.

Dave
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Report this Post06-03-2015 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


my WOT AFR was 11.3-11.5 and my duty cycle was over 95%.

Dave


Technically speaking, you were "ok" with those injectors. But running them at 95% duty cycle didn't leave you with much margin for error so it wasn't a bad idea for you to upgrade to bigger injectors after all.
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OHNIKO
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Report this Post06-03-2015 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OHNIKOClick Here to Email OHNIKOSend a Private Message to OHNIKOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
DID you go to 42.5s Dennis?
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bmwguru
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Report this Post06-04-2015 04:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Technically speaking, you were "ok" with those injectors. But running them at 95% duty cycle didn't leave you with much margin for error so it wasn't a bad idea for you to upgrade to bigger injectors after all.


"Injectors will go static at about a 92% duty cycle and should be sized for an 80% duty cycle to leave some "wiggle" room." That was quoted from a injector calculator website. I have always been taught to properly size the injector....not too big, not too small....same thing with turbos.

Dave
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post06-04-2015 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


"Injectors will go static at about a 92% duty cycle and should be sized for an 80% duty cycle to leave some "wiggle" room." That was quoted from a injector calculator website. I have always been taught to properly size the injector....not too big, not too small....same thing with turbos.

Dave


It all depends on when they go "static". If they aren't going static until the very extreme limit of your maximum RPM range, then you could "get away" with running them. I'm not saying doing this is a good idea - I'm just saying it is doable. But I have to stress again that this leaves you with no margin for error - and I agree upgrading to a bigger injector would be a good idea if you are even coming close to maxing out your injectors.

Concerning going with too big of an injector can be bad - I agree with you on that in most cases; except when it comes to 3800s and the Lucas 42.5 injectors and the Deka 60's. In every application I have used the 42.5 Lucas injectors in and later replaced them with the Deka/Siemen's 60's, the 60's always improved the idle quality over what the Lucas 42.5's gave the engine. For some reason, the Lucas 42.5 injectors just don't give these engines as high of idle quality as the stock 36 pounders or the Deka 60's. At least that has been MY impression of them.

My Turbo 3800 is an excellent example of how 60's aren't too big for a mostly stock engine at idle. My engine is still running the factory 3800 Series 2 SC cam, I only have ported heads and 1.8 rockers (neither mod really effects how the engine runs at idle). At idle my engine doesn't require much different fueling than a stock 3800 Series 2 SC engine requires. But the Deka 60 lb injectors work great with it and don't have any issues whatsoever at idle or any other points of engine operation that require a tiny injector pulse width.

That's why I recommend to anyone needing to upgrade to a bigger injector than the stock 36 pounders - should just skip the Lucas 42.5's and just upgrade straight to the Deka 60's.
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bmwguru
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Report this Post06-04-2015 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


It all depends on when they go "static". If they aren't going static until the very extreme limit of your maximum RPM range, then you could "get away" with running them. I'm not saying doing this is a good idea - I'm just saying it is doable. But I have to stress again that this leaves you with no margin for error - and I agree upgrading to a bigger injector would be a good idea if you are even coming close to maxing out your injectors.

Concerning going with too big of an injector can be bad - I agree with you on that in most cases; except when it comes to 3800s and the Lucas 42.5 injectors and the Deka 60's. In every application I have used the 42.5 Lucas injectors in and later replaced them with the Deka/Siemen's 60's, the 60's always improved the idle quality over what the Lucas 42.5's gave the engine. For some reason, the Lucas 42.5 injectors just don't give these engines as high of idle quality as the stock 36 pounders or the Deka 60's. At least that has been MY impression of them.

My Turbo 3800 is an excellent example of how 60's aren't too big for a mostly stock engine at idle. My engine is still running the factory 3800 Series 2 SC cam, I only have ported heads and 1.8 rockers (neither mod really effects how the engine runs at idle). At idle my engine doesn't require much different fueling than a stock 3800 Series 2 SC engine requires. But the Deka 60 lb injectors work great with it and don't have any issues whatsoever at idle or any other points of engine operation that require a tiny injector pulse width.

That's why I recommend to anyone needing to upgrade to a bigger injector than the stock 36 pounders - should just skip the Lucas 42.5's and just upgrade straight to the Deka 60's.


I agree with you. I have used the 60lb injectors and had good results and tuning was easy. I wound up using the 550cc (52lb) injectors on my high feature swap and after doing the math for my 3800s/c, I felt that they would be a perfect fit for my particular setup.
Dave
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