Converting partially or fully from 84-87 suspension to 88 suspension is easier than an engine swap and I have heard some people argue that a mixed 84-87/88 suspension system is best. Something to consider. Though if you have other reasons for wanting to move away from an 84, like wanting something that was originally a v6 or a fastback then it would make sense.
I dont know what you got your 84' for but I see there are a number of options near you if you are really set on trading for an 88'
Originally posted by Koert: Seriously? Dang man, I found the 190 lbs on a diffrent threat and googled it. Well, so you see, google isn't always right. F23... That's good news
The F23 is rated for 230 Newton-meters of torque. That equates to 170 lbs-ft of torque. Rated torque, and what has been successfully run through them, are very different numbers of course. The number itself is mostly a guide, and a limit of GM will support under warranty. If you buy a brand new transmission from GM with a warranty, and throw three times that amount of torque at it, and it breaks, GM isn't going to replace it for you.
However, I wouldn't worry about whatever SBC you're thinking of getting, generally being too much for it. The V8 in the 1975 Corvette only made 165 HP for example (I can't seem to find the torque numbers, but I'd guess around 200 or so, as the 200 HP version of the same engine made about 255 lbs-ft). The SBC has been around for over 50 years, and has a very wide range of applications and power output, even in the Corvette. You really need to be specific about the engine you're expecting to use, to be able to judge what the power output of it will be.
JustinBart is making over 800 lbs-ft peak in his car with a turbo 3800. Just because he hasn't had a problem there, doesn't mean you won't have a problem with a different engine making less power than that. The weakest links will always break first.
The F23 is rated for 230 Newton-meters of torque. That equates to 170 lbs-ft of torque. Rated torque, and what has been successfully run through them, are very different numbers of course. The number itself is mostly a guide, and a limit of GM will support under warranty. If you buy a brand new transmission from GM with a warranty, and throw three times that amount of torque at it, and it breaks, GM isn't going to replace it for you.
However, I wouldn't worry about whatever SBC you're thinking of getting, generally being too much for it. The V8 in the 1975 Corvette only made 165 HP for example (I can't seem to find the torque numbers, but I'd guess around 200 or so, as the 200 HP version of the same engine made about 255 lbs-ft). The SBC has been around for over 50 years, and has a very wide range of applications and power output, even in the Corvette. You really need to be specific about the engine you're expecting to use, to be able to judge what the power output of it will be.
JustinBart is making over 800 lbs-ft peak in his car with a turbo 3800. Just because he hasn't had a problem there, doesn't mean you won't have a problem with a different engine making less power than that. The weakest links will always break first.
To be honest I am not sure what engine I am going to use, but it is going to be a 350 small block. But do you think a F40 transmission would be better to use than a F23? I think it would be, because of another treat I read, and I base most of my opinion on the info you provided there. Also I was thinking if the transmission would handle the torque of a stock SBC it would be awesome for the first few years, but if I would ever decide to supercharge it after that I might destroy my transmission, so I figured that I should just start out with a very strong transmission.
To be honest I am not sure what engine I am going to use, but it is going to be a 350 small block. But do you think a F40 transmission would be better to use than a F23? I think it would be, because of another treat I read, and I base most of my opinion on the info you provided there. Also I was thinking if the transmission would handle the torque of a stock SBC it would be awesome for the first few years, but if I would ever decide to supercharge it after that I might destroy my transmission, so I figured that I should just start out with a very strong transmission.
Don't throw me in the hater pile, just like I said you remind me of myself only a few years ago. I'm a down for you doing a swap, when I was 17 I finished my 3800sc swap, I only did oil changes on my car before that. One day the Trans blew and I decided to go all out on the swap, it went well and I couldn't of done it without the forum. You should do a 3800sc swap it's the easiest and cost effective for a Big Bang in power. Faster than a sbc and its hella fast. Seriously just do that first, then in a couple years turbo it. I'm 20 now and finishing mine. It will be scary. But seriously an engine swap is a huge deal, just stick to a 3800sc you will not regret it. Read through my build in my sig, might find it helpful. I screwed up more than a few things but you learn when you fix em.
Don't throw me in the hater pile, just like I said you remind me of myself only a few years ago. I'm a down for you doing a swap, when I was 17 I finished my 3800sc swap, I only did oil changes on my car before that. One day the Trans blew and I decided to go all out on the swap, it went well and I couldn't of done it without the forum. You should do a 3800sc swap it's the easiest and cost effective for a Big Bang in power. Faster than a sbc and its hella fast. Seriously just do that first, then in a couple years turbo it. I'm 20 now and finishing mine. It will be scary. But seriously an engine swap is a huge deal, just stick to a 3800sc you will not regret it. Read through my build in my sig, might find it helpful. I screwed up more than a few things but you learn when you fix em.
Thanks, I have actually been bothered with that thought last night. I found a different threat and all the facts point out that it is easier to do the v6 and cheaper and the fastest Fiero ever has a v6. Also you can buy a wiring harness for those premade, not sure if I will do that, probably not to save money. Buy yeah I'm really getting pulled to the six cilinder and your comment made it a lot stronger. I'll check out your build right away. You're not thrown on the hater pile
Thanks, I have actually been bothered with that thought last night. I found a different threat and all the facts point out that it is easier to do the v6 and cheaper and the fastest Fiero ever has a v6. Also you can buy a wiring harness for those premade, not sure if I will do that, probably not to save money. Buy yeah I'm really getting pulled to the six cilinder and your comment made it a lot stronger. I'll check out your build right away. You're not thrown on the hater pile
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-made harness for a 3800 to save money, then you really shouldn't be thinking about an SBC swap, for which the complete pre-made kit will run you a few thousand dollars The pre-made harnesses are only a few hundred.
JustinBart is making over 800 lbs-ft peak in his car with a turbo 3800. Just because he hasn't had a problem there, doesn't mean you won't have a problem with a different engine making less power than that. The weakest links will always break first.
He's had failures... at the very least, he's sheared a CV joint off where it goes into the side gear splines inside the transmission, and on a separate occasion broken the left bearing boss off the diff carrier. The F40 at least has larger splines in the diff side gears and thicker axles so the axles are unlikely to be a problem.
Originally posted by Will: He's had failures... at the very least, he's sheared a CV joint off where it goes into the side gear splines inside the transmission, and on a separate occasion broken the left bearing boss off the diff carrier. The F40 at least has larger splines in the diff side gears and thicker axles so the axles are unlikely to be a problem.
Indeed.
I definitely agree the F40 is a better transmission. It does increase the cost of the swap significantly, though.
Did you ever get a hybrid 06/07+ F40 built with the 3.91 final? Would be interesting to see what you did there, and how it works for you, if so.
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-made harness for a 3800 to save money, then you really shouldn't be thinking about an SBC swap, for which the complete pre-made kit will run you a few thousand dollars The pre-made harnesses are only a few hundred.
So you also think I should go with the 3800? I am also beginning to belive that that would be better
He's had failures... at the very least, he's sheared a CV joint off where it goes into the side gear splines inside the transmission, and on a separate occasion broken the left bearing boss off the diff carrier. The F40 at least has larger splines in the diff side gears and thicker axles so the axles are unlikely to be a problem.
I thought the bearing boss failure was due to an assembly error?
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Yes. It is a less involved and less expensive swap, and you'll likely have a better powerband out of it, with a stock engine.
Okay, good to hear support from you. I have searched a lot around the forum and see you like everywhere. You seen to be one of the smartest guys around here, so I take your word above most other people's
I definitely agree the F40 is a better transmission. It does increase the cost of the swap significantly, though.
Did you ever get a hybrid 06/07+ F40 built with the 3.91 final? Would be interesting to see what you did there, and how it works for you, if so.
I don't know if it's a "better transmission". I've heard of it having some failures as well. I just know that it has bigger axles. Also the Fiero inner CV joint cups and their splines are soft as butter... probably to make sure they fail instead of the side gears inside the transmission. Doing a transmission swap to have a stronger driveline and carrying over stock axles doesn't make much sense to me.
I have not built the frankentrans yet, but it's on the list.
Originally posted by Justinbart: I installed a roller bearing upside down on the secondary shaft(?) that caused a worring noise. I did break a gear off on the diff.
The F40 is not without failures. Joseph grenaded one behind his 3.9.
Joseph's was also most likely already damaged when installed, from a side impact to the G6 it came out of.
I've seen a couple of other reported failures in the F40 as well over the years, that happened during 2-3 shift IIRC, but I'm having trouble finding those threads now. They were on other forums though, but I don't recall which exactly.
I never broke an axle with the 4 spd, but the auto ones broke easily. It was just a matter of which...the trans or the axle, would break that week. One axle on the auto-V8 broke backing it out of the garage, another broke pulling up onto a car show awards stage.
I can get you the phone number of a guy that hauled off a bunch of 84 4speeds and an 85 4 speed and an 86 4speed plus a citation 4speed. He's sitting on them until junk prices go up. Let me know.
I never broke an axle with the 4 spd, but the auto ones broke easily. It was just a matter of which...the trans or the axle, would break that week. One axle on the auto-V8 broke backing it out of the garage, another broke pulling up onto a car show awards stage.
What is the best replacement for the axle in case it breaks?
I can get you the phone number of a guy that hauled off a bunch of 84 4speeds and an 85 4 speed and an 86 4speed plus a citation 4speed. He's sitting on them until junk prices go up. Let me know.
I think it would be better to go with the F23 transmission, but thanks!
If you're worried about the cost of a pre-made harness for a 3800 to save money, then you really shouldn't be thinking about an SBC swap, for which the complete pre-made kit will run you a few thousand dollars The pre-made harnesses are only a few hundred.
HUH !!!! My V8 car didnt need any special harness. hot wire for ignition, starter, and alternator gauge, hot wire for choke, wires for tach. I used a mechanical temp gauge.My engine bay wiring cost me maybe $10, mostly for connectors. I can buy a new crate 350 for $2500 (at least when I bought mine).I couldnt spend $2000 on a wiring harness unless it was all gold conductor with gold connectors.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: HUH !!!! My V8 car didnt need any special harness. hot wire for ignition, starter, and alternator gauge, hot wire for choke, wires for tach. I used a mechanical temp gauge.My engine bay wiring cost me maybe $10, mostly for connectors. I can buy a new crate 350 for $2500 (at least when I bought mine).I couldnt spend $2000 on a wiring harness unless it was all gold conductor with gold connectors.
And how much was a complete V8Archie swap kit?
And not all SBCs are carbed. You can literally swap in a used 3800SC for less than $1500, and almost no fabrication. You are not going to swap in a V8 with no fabrication, and certainly not one that makes more than 250 HP for that cost.
I never mentioned a wire harness costing $2000. I was talking about the complete swap kit. Archie's master Gen I/II SBC kit for a manual swap is $3200 and $3000 for auto. That doesn't include the engine, trans, intake, carb, etc… An F23 will also require other things which are not part of the kit. An F40 will require another kit for it, some of the pieces are shared with the SBC kit, but the F40 master kit is another $3800. If you want an SBC/F40 the cost is significantly greater than a 3800, even if you don't use EFI.
My mistake, sorry. I thought you said $2000+ for a v8 wiring harness which I thought was ridiculous. My v8 Archie conversion kit was free with the car I bought for it. I think I paid $1500 for the complete running car with kit. I had the crate 350 from Jasper, to at that time, Jasper Racings engine shop during the off season and had it built and stroked to 383. My guy there intalled everything brand new from carb to oil pan and delivered to my door ready to run. It was I think around $6K. The engine was awesome, trans (4 of them) just couldnt take it. Even when I swapped it to a buddy for his stock 350, you couldnt keep a trans in it.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-11-2015).]
My mistake, sorry. I thought you said $2000+ for a v8 wiring harness which I thought was ridiculous. My v8 Archie conversion kit was free with the car I bought for it. I think I paid $1500 for the complete running car with kit. I had the crate 350 from Jasper, to at that time, Jasper Racings engine shop during the off season and had it built and stroked to 383. My guy there intalled everything brand new from carb to oil pan and delivered to my door ready to run. It was I think around $6K. The engine was awesome, trans (4 of them) just couldnt take it. Even when I swapped it to a buddy for his stock 350, you couldnt keep a trans in it.
Well, you got very lucky by buying a car that already had all the fab work done and the Archie kit already installed, if it was (not clear from your statement if you bought it running with a v8 or if it just came with the kit). If you would have had to buy the kit and then pay labor to have the fab work done and the kit installed (even without the engine installed and running), it sounds like you would have spent over $10k.
I have a 383 V8 and presently finishing my F40 swap ..... mine is carbed and I'm ALOT over the 10K mark ... I was tempted by the F23 but decide to go 6 speed.... never had issues with my OEM 4 speed .... except for high revs on the highway. ... this should be way down with my F40 .... which by the way cost 4K with everything needed to install.
I do almost all my own work on my own cars. Only things I wont mess with are auto trans and rear ends. The only fabricating on the v8 car was slotting out the cradle for the harmonic balancer. The rest all just bolted in place. I didnt even move the battery. I did have to have my muffler shop guy make up a set of duals for it. I used the baffled tips.
Funny, I see where people say the 85-86 4 SPD Muncie is stronger than the getrag 5 speed. I am doing a 3800 sc swap in my 85 GT using the stock 4 SPD Muncie.
Are there any numbers on the trans casing that I could use to verify what I have is in fact an 85 Muncie not an 84?
I also have spare 4 SPD Muncie (don't know year) that I have never run.
I don't want to make the mistake of mating an 84 Muncie to my 3800sc. The history of my car is unknown and I'd like to verify that the trans is in fact an 85.
Thanks
Louis
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
The 84 transmissions had no webbing essentially making the case weaker. The internals were the same though.
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:
Funny, I see where people say the 85-86 4 SPD Muncie is stronger than the getrag 5 speed. I am doing a 3800 sc swap in my 85 GT using the stock 4 SPD Muncie.
Are there any numbers on the trans casing that I could use to verify what I have is in fact an 85 Muncie not an 84?
I also have spare 4 SPD Muncie (don't know year) that I have never run.
I don't want to make the mistake of mating an 84 Muncie to my 3800sc. The history of my car is unknown and I'd like to verify that the trans is in fact an 85.
I think your enthusiasm is settiing you up for failure. Building a car is a big project. You need to take a deep breath and be able to answer some questions.
1. What is your budget? 2. What do you want from the car? (how do you intend to use it? Will you race it? Drag racing? AutoX? Will it just be a weekend cruiser, or a daily driver? Do you want AC? How many miles do you plan to drive a year -?) 3. What is your mechanical skill level? (have you pulled an engine before? Can you weld? Have you made wiring harnesses before?) 4. Do you have access to an equipped garage or work space? (doing a swap in a gravel parking lot, while possible, it not going to be fun)
Then you can decide what type of engine you want. If you want a Chevy 350, I'd suggest you get a V8 Archie Master Build kit. It has all the parts you need and detailed instructions on what to do. That's probably the easiest way for a first time swap if you want a V8.
Get the plan and know how much money you have to work with before you start shopping for parts. It will save you tons of time and money from buying the wrong parts or changing your mind down the road.
I think your enthusiasm is settiing you up for failure. Building a car is a big project. You need to take a deep breath and be able to answer some questions.
1. What is your budget? 2. What do you want from the car? (how do you intend to use it? Will you race it? Drag racing? AutoX? Will it just be a weekend cruiser, or a daily driver? Do you want AC? How many miles do you plan to drive a year -?) 3. What is your mechanical skill level? (have you pulled an engine before? Can you weld? Have you made wiring harnesses before?) 4. Do you have access to an equipped garage or work space? (doing a swap in a gravel parking lot, while possible, it not going to be fun)
Then you can decide what type of engine you want. If you want a Chevy 350, I'd suggest you get a V8 Archie Master Build kit. It has all the parts you need and detailed instructions on what to do. That's probably the easiest way for a first time swap if you want a V8.
Get the plan and know how much money you have to work with before you start shopping for parts. It will save you tons of time and money from buying the wrong parts or changing your mind down the road.
I couldn't agree more, another good question, can I go without this car for months or even years while I work on it?
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Okay, so I want to do an engine swap but like everyone is against it because they say the car can't handle the 290 horsepower of a SBC. So my question can a Fiero handle it? If it can't what do I need to change? Like suspension and brakes, or a lot more?
Thanks Koert
OK, sorry I did not go through this entire thread but my 88GT is TOTALLY controllable with the LS V8 I have, Dynoed at just over 300hp and 330tq.
I think the best thing you could do right now is read through some 3800 threads.
It is by far the easiest swap that is not a 3.4, very well documented, all the Engine Management is figured out, you can buy plug and play harnesses for under $500.
The engine itself is also cheap, $500-700, and very bulletproof in stock form, needing only a LIM gasket. Getting more power out of it, ~300hp, only really requires a smaller pulley on the supercharger snout.
It will bolt up to an f23 transmission which around me is $200 for an under 100,000 mile one.
The F23 will require some custom cables you will have to order and specify what you want to the manufacturer, and brackets you will have to fabricate.
The engine will require mounts as well as the transmission. You can buy or make these.
The coolant hoses/ tubes will need to be modified/configured for the 3800 and you will need to figure out how you are going to have a Fiero style thermostat for easy coolant fill (not required however).
You will need to upgrade the fuel pump which will require dropping the tank.
You will need to figure out how you will run the fuel lines and hook them up to the 3800.
You will need to figure out how you will make an air cleaner assembly.
You will need to make an exhaust.
You will need to get a new length serpentine belt and relocate the alternator to not interfere with the decklid.
You will need a place and mounting scheme for the 3800 ECM.
You will need to relocate coil packs.
ETC
ETC
ETC
As you can see, I whipped this off the top of my head, these are just the things I remember and it is a huge list. And this is the easiest most well documented swap with the most parts readily available for purchase.
Everything takes time and effort. Having a car apart for a long time makes weird things happen in your brain and a lot of people second guess what they are doing and sell their projects. Therefore you really need to know what you are getting into and figure out the most efficient way to go about it.
AKA Read A LOT. That is why we know so much. That and doing things. But we all read first and so should you.
I think the best thing you could do right now is read through some 3800 threads.
It is by far the easiest swap that is not a 3.4, very well documented, all the Engine Management is figured out, you can buy plug and play harnesses for under $500.
The engine itself is also cheap, $500-700, and very bulletproof in stock form, needing only a LIM gasket. Getting more power out of it, ~300hp, only really requires a smaller pulley on the supercharger snout.
It will bolt up to an f23 transmission which around me is $200 for an under 100,000 mile one.
The F23 will require some custom cables you will have to order and specify what you want to the manufacturer, and brackets you will have to fabricate.
The engine will require mounts as well as the transmission. You can buy or make these.
The coolant hoses/ tubes will need to be modified/configured for the 3800 and you will need to figure out how you are going to have a Fiero style thermostat for easy coolant fill (not required however).
You will need to upgrade the fuel pump which will require dropping the tank.
You will need to figure out how you will run the fuel lines and hook them up to the 3800.
You will need to figure out how you will make an air cleaner assembly.
You will need to make an exhaust.
You will need to get a new length serpentine belt and relocate the alternator to not interfere with the decklid.
You will need a place and mounting scheme for the 3800 ECM.
You will need to relocate coil packs.
ETC
ETC
ETC
As you can see, I whipped this off the top of my head, these are just the things I remember and it is a huge list. And this is the easiest most well documented swap with the most parts readily available for purchase.
Everything takes time and effort. Having a car apart for a long time makes weird things happen in your brain and a lot of people second guess what they are doing and sell their projects. Therefore you really need to know what you are getting into and figure out the most efficient way to go about it.
AKA Read A LOT. That is why we know so much. That and doing things. But we all read first and so should you.
It is an awesome hobby to work on your car, and it is great you want to do this! I just want to help you gauge the scope of this.
Goodluck! Zach
Thank you, thank you. I know there's going to be days i'll start screaming because it doesn't work the way I want. or because I need to buy something I didn't expect which I have to save up for and all that. But I know myself and I never give up.
I think your enthusiasm is settiing you up for failure. Building a car is a big project. You need to take a deep breath and be able to answer some questions.
1. What is your budget? 2. What do you want from the car? (how do you intend to use it? Will you race it? Drag racing? AutoX? Will it just be a weekend cruiser, or a daily driver? Do you want AC? How many miles do you plan to drive a year -?) 3. What is your mechanical skill level? (have you pulled an engine before? Can you weld? Have you made wiring harnesses before?) 4. Do you have access to an equipped garage or work space? (doing a swap in a gravel parking lot, while possible, it not going to be fun)
Then you can decide what type of engine you want. If you want a Chevy 350, I'd suggest you get a V8 Archie Master Build kit. It has all the parts you need and detailed instructions on what to do. That's probably the easiest way for a first time swap if you want a V8.
Get the plan and know how much money you have to work with before you start shopping for parts. It will save you tons of time and money from buying the wrong parts or changing your mind down the road.
Thanks for the reply man. I have considered those questions many times. I don't have enough money to buy everything "today" I save my money and buy parts and tools over time, I would like to race my car. Not sure what kind of racing, anything I can afford really. Also I am not going to do everything myself. I have a friend who actually studied to be a mechanic and used to be one. And a friend who has rebuild several cars, and then a couple who are just also into cars. I'm not alone in this, if I can't figure it out and the people here don't know it and they don't know it. Than I would be very surprised haha
If you think I won't be able to do it yet you are very right. That's why I am doing all this research.
