Okay, so I want to do an engine swap but like everyone is against it because they say the car can't handle the 290 horsepower of a SBC. So my question can a Fiero handle it? If it can't what do I need to change? Like suspension and brakes, or a lot more?
You got to give us more to work with than that. The car itself, suspension and all can handle A LOT more than 290 hp. It's the drive train that is the wink link. Do you have the auto or the manual?
You got to give us more to work with than that. The car itself, suspension and all can handle A LOT more than 290 hp. It's the drive train that is the wink link. Do you have the auto or the manual?
You have an 84 correct? You cannot use that transmission. It is by far the weekest Fiero transmission. Maybe MAYBE when it was new it would last a while, but you will blow the guts out of that thing immediately. Everything else is fine. Suspension, axles, and cradle are all OK for the ~300hp power level
Don't tell my car it can't handle the power I put in it, hate for it to break after all these years!
Car it self is fine, poly suspension bushings and a solid mount cradle go a long way to help feel of the car with more power. Drivetrain is the weak link. I have more $ in my transmission than I bought the car for, and that's not counting the parts I've broken or replaced. That's just stuff currently in the car.
I have 13" rotors on my car and they make the 20" wheels look right but unless you are diving into corners and braking and doing it over and over until you experience brake fade I don't see a need for a brake upgrade. You can slide the wheels when you give it full peddle right? '
Okay, so I can keep pretty much everything stock and go like 130 miles an hour without anything breaking down?
Also stock transmission or should I really swap that too? If I have to swap my transmission too I would like to get a 6 speed, but that is probably very expensive is it? What transmission would you guys recommend?
Im not knowlegable in this but this is what I understand about the trans.
Getrag from the GT can handle the most power (not sure of its safe limits I would think 250bhp give or take) The munci is next in line though far inferior (I have no education on this trans) the worst being the Isuzu trans that is only safely good for a 150bhp give or take build
This is he said she said knowledge, I will stand corrected with proof of different numbers And Im sure you can push them farther from what I say, but Im going off what Ive been told for safety.
130 mph? If you are serious about that number, you will be rebuilding many things on your car for years before you get there. If you are just throwing a number on the thread, ....here are a couple of observations.
1. Slammed knows what he is talking about. The 1984 transmissions are weak because of the case..4 speeds from 1985 and 1986 (M17) are much stronger, and would be a good choice. 2. The more horsepower you have, the fewer gears you need in the transmission to make the car perform. 6 speeds would be a waste. 3. The first indication that you are going too fast will be light and unresponsive steering.....not a good feeling. 4. The second indication that you are going too fast will be the headlight doors slamming open and scaring the .......... out of you.
Originally posted by coltonandrew: Im not knowlegable in this but this is what I understand about the trans.
Getrag from the GT can handle the most power (not sure of its safe limits I would think 250bhp give or take) The munci is next in line though far inferior (I have no education on this trans) the worst being the Isuzu trans that is only safely good for a 150bhp give or take build
This is he said she said knowledge, I will stand corrected with proof of different numbers And Im sure you can push them farther from what I say, but Im going off what Ive been told for safety.
Transmissions are rated for torque, not horsepower. Horsepower is irrelevant, is it is a factor of RPM. You can be making 300 HP at 10000 RPM for example, and a trans rated for 150 lbs-ft would be able to handle it just fine, assuming the material strength of the internal components of the transmission can handle the RPM. The breaking point is also more related to load based stress, than it is to peak engine output. The F40 is rated for 400 Nm (or 285 lbs-ft) of torque, for example, but is used behind many LSx swaps that are making 480 lbs-ft or more, at peak. The max power ratings of transmissions are also fairly subjective. They tend to be rated based on the engines they will be bolted to, and the cars they will be installed in, on the production line, and not based on actual breaking points, as there are just way too many variables to give proper ratings for the transmissions.
Remember, the Fiero is lighter than many of the cars that the FWD transmissions came in, and is also RWD, both of which will affect how much torque and stress the transmission can handle. The OEM ratings are very rough guidelines for that the transmissions can handle.
I'm guessing the solid non-vented disc brakes would not be sufficient at 290 hp.
They will be fine for 600 HP, unless you're driving the car in situations where you are actually moving faster than you were with 100 HP. A 2700 lbs Fiero moving at 30 MPH is going to need the same amount of braking to stop, whether you have 100 HP or 600 HP as the peak performance of the engine.
They will be fine for 600 HP, unless you're driving the car in situations where you are actually moving faster than you were with 100 HP. A 2700 lbs Fiero moving at 30 MPH is going to need the same amount of braking to stop, whether you have 100 HP or 600 HP as the peak performance of the engine.
Right, I was just observing that a Fiero with 290 HP would probably be moving a lot faster than one with 90 HP. The potential for it to get away from the driver is much more real.
Originally posted by Koert: Okay, so I can keep pretty much everything stock and go like 130 miles an hour without anything breaking down?
Also stock transmission or should I really swap that too? If I have to swap my transmission too I would like to get a 6 speed, but that is probably very expensive is it? What transmission would you guys recommend?
I recommend you spend a whole heck of a lot more time reading up on what is actually required, what the costs will be, and gaining the necessary skills to complete such a swap, before you even think about deciding on what swap you will do. Everything you've asked so far has been answered a thousand times over on this very forum. While there's nothing wrong with dreaming of the swap you most want, it's not going to be cheap or easy, no matter what you do.
What is your budget for the swap? Time frame? How long can the car be down while you do the swap and get it working? How many federal laws are you willing to break by having the swap? What performance (not just some random peak HP number, or max MPH you'd like to be able to do, but actual performance measurements) do you really want out of the engine? How much fuel economy do you want? Can you weld? Can you fabricate random custom parts? Do you understand electronics well enough to deal with the wiring issues? How much of your budget is for things other than the engine (brakes, suspension, etc…)? Will you perform the work yourself, or will you be paying a shop to do it? Can you afford the alteration in insurance premiums that may result? Have you ever even driven anything with a similar power/weight ratio as you're looking for with a swap in the Fiero?
All of these things, and more, need to be considered.
Originally posted by Gall757: 1. Slammed knows what he is talking about. The 1984 transmissions are weak because of the case..4 speeds from 1985 and 1986 (M17) are much stronger, and would be a good choice. 2. The more horsepower you have, the fewer gears you need in the transmission to make the car perform. 6 speeds would be a waste. 3. The first indication that you are going too fast will be light and unresponsive steering.....not a good feeling. 4. The second indication that you are going too fast will be the headlight doors slamming open and scaring the .......... out of you.
1. Agreed. Though I wouldn't use any of the stock Fiero transmissions with a swap. I'd upgrade at least to a later HTOB Getrag, F23, or F40. 2. Not really. Torque curve and how the car will be driven will determine what gears you should have. New Ferraris have 7 speeds, with top gear at 1:1, for example. For racing, you want to have a set of gears that will let you keep the engine operating at its peak, as you shift to go through turns and such. Normal street driving though, you mostly want gears that will let you get started moving, and obtain optimal fuel economy. The F40 6 speed is pretty great for the latter. Most all GM FWD transmissions are not very good for the former, but some provide a decent balance between the two. 3/4. Yes, proper venting up front is absolutely necessary if you want a Fiero that will handle speed. You might want a broadway mirror too, so you'll know when the flashing blue and red lights are coming for you, if you plan to drive that fast on the street. If you want to do 130 MPH in the 1/4 mile though, in a Fiero, prepare to be spending $6K on just a transmission (which will be a built 4t65e). You're not going to go fast in 1/4 mile if you don't have the money to do so.
Originally posted by masospaghetti: Right, I was just observing that a Fiero with 290 HP would probably be moving a lot faster than one with 90 HP. The potential for it to get away from the driver is much more real.
That's true, but big brakes aren't going to make one a better driver either. Maybe it could help save some damage, but if you can't handle 300 HP slow and in traffic, the brakes probably aren't going to save you. They'll probably lock up faster in a panic braking situation, and still send the car sliding into whatever is in front of it. Vented front rotors of the same size probably aren't going to help in that situation either, as the brakes will probably already be cool enough to not induce fade. Better to learn to drive with the stock brakes, rather than trying to depend on "upgraded" brakes to save your skin, so that when you do upgrade the brakes, they'll actually be useful.
Stock parts lasting all depends on how it's driven! I had a 383 in a Fiero with the stock (rebuilt) 4 speed and nothing special for a clutch. Never dynoed but the motor was built for 400HP so maybe 330 - 350 at the wheels? I never had any issues with the clutch or the tranny but I drove it considering those would be the weak link in the drive train. So, no dead stop clutch drops - however, a power shift from 1st to 2nd at a 20 mph roll would boil the tires and anything above 40 with the throttle mashed and going through the gears was a blast - top end was around 127 with a GPS and there was more - the car had a few vibrations at that speed that left some concern - stock brakes, suspension, etc. It was a great - fun car. I'll say it one more time - it all depends on how it's driven - you can smoke a clutch, scatter a tranny , break an axle and/or ruin the brakes on a stock 2.8 Fiero - if you don't smoke the motor first!
Stock parts lasting all depends on how it's driven! I had a 383 in a Fiero with the stock (rebuilt) 4 speed and nothing special for a clutch. Never dynoed but the motor was built for 400HP so maybe 330 - 350 at the wheels? I never had any issues with the clutch or the tranny but I drove it considering those would be the weak link in the drive train. So, no dead stop clutch drops - however, a power shift from 1st to 2nd at a 20 mph roll would boil the tires and anything above 40 with the throttle mashed and going through the gears was a blast - top end was around 127 with a GPS and there was more - the car had a few vibrations at that speed that left some concern - stock brakes, suspension, etc. It was a great - fun car. I'll say it one more time - it all depends on how it's driven - you can smoke a clutch, scatter a tranny , break an axle and/or ruin the brakes on a stock 2.8 Fiero - if you don't smoke the motor first!
Okay, so if I can drive properly I should be able to keep the stock transmission? I know I probably already asked that millions of times in this thread, but some people are really against keeping the stock tranny. And the thing I want to avoid is swapping the engine and breaking the tranny, because than i would have to get all my friends that are going to help me together again, I just have a feeling they wouldn't be happy with me than.
I had no problems with my turboed v6 and 4 speed and I used it hard, but not abused. My 383 stroker v8 car went thru auto trans (125s) like candy (4 @ 1,000 miles each) and it also broke 3 axles before I put better ones in. I never even raced it. A top local drag racing trans shop built all 4. I gave up and just sold the car. They even used custom built converters and 8 disc clutch packs.
Originally posted by Koert: And the thing I want to avoid is swapping the engine and breaking the tranny, because than i would have to get all my friends that are going to help me together again, I just have a feeling they wouldn't be happy with me than.
What exactly are you expecting (and telling your friends that are going to help you) to accomplish? Swapping an old SBC into an 84 Fiero in a weekend and have it work reliably and make 300 BHP? How much are you expecting to spend on this project?
If you rush into it, you're probably going to end up with a lot of frustration, a new hate for Fieros, and a car laying in a bunch of pieces with no engine.
The fact is, the Fiero chassis can handle well more power than your wallet likely can. If you want to make lots of power, you're going to have to spend the money on the things to be able to make that power, and get it to the ground, without breaking stuff. There are hundreds of swap threads on this forum, for everything from an old gutless SBC to a 4G63, 800+ HP turbo 3800s, and an LS7 with a blower. Do your research first, and make the right decisions, instead of trying to rush into things.
Koert in the end its up to you. But there are many experienced folks here that would advise not using that trans. Alot of people have done a swap , then done another one with the next more powerful engine, maybe broke stuff, fixed it, for more power maybe then turboed it. I bet alot of them would have saved money and time doing it the most reliable way the first time. I think thats what teh advice given is, them recommending you save money and time in the long run, even if it costs more up front.
For me, the way I look at it is to drive safe enough to not break the tranny it might be a little too boring to be worth the swap. If it were me I could tell myself I'd take it easy but when I get in that car I'm pretty sure those thoughts would be moved over for.. "I bet it can take it nothings happened yet"
.... And the thing I want to avoid is swapping the engine and breaking the tranny, because than i would have to get all my friends that are going to help me together again, I just have a feeling they wouldn't be happy with me than.
You sound like you think the swap is going to be done in a weekend. If you are relying on friends to help you, get ready to have them over all the time. If it's a hassle to get them over, then it's going to be a very long swap!
What exactly are you expecting (and telling your friends that are going to help you) to accomplish? Swapping an old SBC into an 84 Fiero in a weekend and have it work reliably and make 300 BHP? How much are you expecting to spend on this project?
If you rush into it, you're probably going to end up with a lot of frustration, a new hate for Fieros, and a car laying in a bunch of pieces with no engine.
The fact is, the Fiero chassis can handle well more power than your wallet likely can. If you want to make lots of power, you're going to have to spend the money on the things to be able to make that power, and get it to the ground, without breaking stuff. There are hundreds of swap threads on this forum, for everything from an old gutless SBC to a 4G63, 800+ HP turbo 3800s, and an LS7 with a blower. Do your research first, and make the right decisions, instead of trying to rush into things.
I absolutely don't think it will be done in a weekend, my planning is to buy a SBC in this summer and get it ready, then build a wiring harness, than do all the other stuff required while saving up for a new tranny than I will buy the tranny and put everything together as far as I can do that without putting it in the engine yet. Than when all that is done I will wait until I am off from school for at least 2 weeks and I will try to take the Iron duke out myself and then get all my friends over just to put everything into place. Thanks for the help, I know there is a ton of building threats out there. And I have gone through many of them but sometimes things are confusing and the one person says this and the other says something else, so I like to post questions just so I can compare everyone's opinions and take the best conclusion for myself. I appreciate you being worried about my Fiero but I have enough people telling me why I shouldn't do it, so I come here for some support. You do sound like one of the people that knows what is involved, and yes there is still a ton that I need to learn, but while I am doing it I will learn so much, and I will research for hours and hours. Also I don't NEED my car every day, so if the actual swap doesn't work in 2 weeks like I hope than it is not like I am in trouble for transportation.
Koert in the end its up to you. But there are many experienced folks here that would advise not using that trans. Alot of people have done a swap , then done another one with the next more powerful engine, maybe broke stuff, fixed it, for more power maybe then turboed it. I bet alot of them would have saved money and time doing it the most reliable way the first time. I think thats what teh advice given is, them recommending you save money and time in the long run, even if it costs more up front.
For me, the way I look at it is to drive safe enough to not break the tranny it might be a little too boring to be worth the swap. If it were me I could tell myself I'd take it easy but when I get in that car I'm pretty sure those thoughts would be moved over for.. "I bet it can take it nothings happened yet"
Very true, that is exactly how I would be. And especially when I get ready to take my car to the track I won't drive safe enough for the tranny. Thanks for telling me that, didn't look at it like that, I was more concerned about saving my money.
I had no problems with my turboed v6 and 4 speed and I used it hard, but not abused. My 383 stroker v8 car went thru auto trans (125s) like candy (4 @ 1,000 miles each) and it also broke 3 axles before I put better ones in. I never even raced it. A top local drag racing trans shop built all 4. I gave up and just sold the car. They even used custom built converters and 8 disc clutch packs.
Hmm, anyone else got trouble with broken axles? Because my friend who is a mechanic thinks they will break too, that's why he recommends me to buy a different car, but I don't want that. I want a Fiero. I mean all of us here have to understand that right
Hmm, anyone else got trouble with broken axles? Because my friend who is a mechanic thinks they will break too, that's why he recommends me to buy a different car, but I don't want that. I want a Fiero. I mean all of us here have to understand that right
You don't need a different car, just be prepared to get better axles if they do break. A number of people have had them break, most others don't have a problem.
Two weeks for your first swap? Ambitious. I took almost nine months for my 4.9 swap. You'd better spend lots of time getting every piece ready to go in advance. Review lots of build threads and make a list of every part that is required. Of course no one documents everything, so you will likely still have some surprises once you get underway.
What type of racing are you planning on doing? Road racing/autocross? Drag racing? Street racing? Depending on the level of seriousness with whatever you are doing depends alot on transmission choice. For drag racing go with the 4t65e-hd with built up internals. Road racing/autocross use the 5 spd getrag. If you are running a SBC and want to do a little of each I would still go with a built up 4t65e-hd. If you are just going to cruise it do the g6 6 speed swap.
The Fiero chassis can handle well above 290hp. With the right suspension upgrades, poly bushings new shocks, spring and ball joint (where aplicable) fiero's have been handling over 500whp.
Originally posted by Koert: Hmm, anyone else got trouble with broken axles? Because my friend who is a mechanic thinks they will break too, that's why he recommends me to buy a different car, but I don't want that. I want a Fiero. I mean all of us here have to understand that right
You don't need a different car, just be prepared to get better axles if they do break. A number of people have had them break, most others don't have a problem.
Two weeks for your first swap? Ambitious. I took almost nine months for my 4.9 swap. You'd better spend lots of time getting every piece ready to go in advance. Review lots of build threads and make a list of every part that is required. Of course no one documents everything, so you will likely still have some surprises once you get underway.
I will have everything ready before I do the actual swap, and yeah the surprises, I think I won't like those, but I know they will be there and I will deal with them.
What type of racing are you planning on doing? Road racing/autocross? Drag racing? Street racing? Depending on the level of seriousness with whatever you are doing depends alot on transmission choice. For drag racing go with the 4t65e-hd with built up internals. Road racing/autocross use the 5 spd getrag. If you are running a SBC and want to do a little of each I would still go with a built up 4t65e-hd. If you are just going to cruise it do the g6 6 speed swap.
The Fiero chassis can handle well above 290hp. With the right suspension upgrades, poly bushings new shocks, spring and ball joint (where aplicable) fiero's have been handling over 500whp.
I'm planning on Road racing and autocross. I might drag race a friends car occasionally, but I am not very big on drag racing. Do you know what cars have a getrag 5 speed? Because I will most likely go with that. Thanks for your reply.
I'm planning on Road racing and autocross. I might drag race a friends car occasionally, but I am not very big on drag racing. Do you know what cars have a getrag 5 speed? Because I will most likely go with that. Thanks for your reply.
The Getrag was in the 87-88 GT's and 88 Formula's. Someone correct me if i'm wrong but I'm thinking 861/2 GT's had the getrag. Not sure if the 86 SE had a getrag or the 4spd. There are other GM cars that ran the getrag and can be used in the fiero with the apropriate swap parts. You can always have your part cryo treated to help beef them up.
And Im sure you can push them farther from what I say, but Im going off what Ive been told for safety.
