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3.1 V6, first turbo build questions by Renier
Started on: 03-11-2015 12:30 PM
Replies: 87 (2475 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 04-06-2015 08:06 AM
lou_dias
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Report this Post03-22-2015 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:
Tell me I am wrong and that fiero heads aren't iron heads. you mentioned iron heads when you said fiero heads. now I am going to ask again. provide proof that fiero heads flow "no better" then gen 2 aluminum heads stock for stock. its a simple request which I am sure you have the data for since you made that statement.
so I guess you are the one person that has bored a 3100 block .120 over. So how much did you pay for the sonic testing of the bore walls? how thick are they? just how much was your block affected by core shift?

You're interpretation of that sentence is still wrong. I still wasn't telling him to keep his 2.8 as for GEN2 heads, they are junk and GEN3 motor swaps are usually recommended since the MPFI intake they come with is considered quite bad. GEN2 exhaust ports are identical to GEN1. The early GEN3 heads changed to D port and the later GEN3 came with essential a port job on the intake...but they were cast so GEN2 would have to be ported to GEN3+ standards...which is what I was implying.
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Report this Post03-22-2015 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

You're interpretation of that sentence is still wrong. I still wasn't telling him to keep his 2.8 as for GEN2 heads, they are junk and GEN3 motor swaps are usually recommended since the MPFI intake they come with is considered quite bad. GEN2 exhaust ports are identical to GEN1. The early GEN3 heads changed to D port and the later GEN3 came with essential a port job on the intake...but they were cast so GEN2 would have to be ported to GEN3+ standards...which is what I was implying.


My interpretation of your sentance was not wrong. you specifically said that gen 2 heads flow no better than fiero heads. you are flat out wrong. I will agree the gen 2 intake is bad, but the heads are far and above better flow wise than the iron fiero heads. you claim gen 2 heads are junk but you think the irons aren't junk? by your own admission if the gen 2s flow no better than the irons, and the gen 2s are junk(your words), then ergo, the irons are junk too.

the gen 3s came with a port job on the intake from the factory? what are you talking about? wrong again! why do you make stuff up?

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Report this Post03-23-2015 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:


My interpretation of your sentance was not wrong. you specifically said that gen 2 heads flow no better than fiero heads. you are flat out wrong. I will agree the gen 2 intake is bad, but the heads are far and above better flow wise than the iron fiero heads. you claim gen 2 heads are junk but you think the irons aren't junk? by your own admission if the gen 2s flow no better than the irons, and the gen 2s are junk(your words), then ergo, the irons are junk too.

the gen 3s came with a port job on the intake from the factory? what are you talking about? wrong again! why do you make stuff up?

I think you took out of it what you wanted to take out of it.
I gave my opinion to the OP of doing a fresh rebuild with some performance upgrades prior to turboing.
Then you went ballistic.
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Report this Post03-23-2015 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your not stuck with 200 hp with a v6 if you want to spend some money. A number of years ago Nascar played with the idea of the Cup cars using v8s and the then Bush cars using v6s. They were pumping out over 450 hp with a single 4 bbl with Ford and GM 280 ci. Ive seen complete ones pop up for sale a few times online.

https://www.google.com/sear...sAQ&biw=1094&bih=561

http://oval.race-cars.com/c...052/1059442052ss.htm

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-23-2015).]

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Report this Post03-23-2015 04:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I think you took out of it what you wanted to take out of it.
I gave my opinion to the OP of doing a fresh rebuild with some performance upgrades prior to turboing.
Then you went ballistic.


asking you to prove your claim that gen2 heads flow the same as fiero heads is me "going ballistic"? wow I had no idea you are of such weak disposition
you claim:
gen2 heads flow the same as fiero heads. thats false
gen 3 heads come with factory porting on the intakes. thats false.
3.1 block can be bored over safely .120. thats false
should I ask again for you to post up your sonic wall testing numbers from your block being bored over that much? you probably didn't even have it done so you can't provide any. since you claim the 3.1 and 3.4 block are the same, then why didn't you bore your engine over more then just .120? why stop there when you can bore it out another .040 since a 3.4 block can be safely overbored that much. you should have overbored your 3.1 motor to .200 and had a full 3.5 liter. thats only a .080 overbore on a 3.4. why did you stop at only .120 if the blocks are the same according to you? serious questions. feel free to answer

[This message has been edited by bigformula (edited 03-23-2015).]

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Report this Post03-23-2015 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:


asking you to prove your claim that gen2 heads flow the same as fiero heads is me "going ballistic"? wow I had no idea you are of such weak disposition
you claim:
gen2 heads flow the same as fiero heads. thats false
gen 3 heads come with factory porting on the intakes. thats false.
3.1 block can be bored over safely .120. thats false
should I ask again for you to post up your sonic wall testing numbers from your block being bored over that much? you probably didn't even have it done so you can't provide any. since you claim the 3.1 and 3.4 block are the same, then why didn't you bore your engine over more then just .120? why stop there when you can bore it out another .040 since a 3.4 block can be safely overbored that much. you should have overbored your 3.1 motor to .200 and had a full 3.5 liter. thats only a .080 overbore on a 3.4. why did you stop at only .120 if the blocks are the same according to you? serious questions. feel free to answer

Way off topic for no reason. That's ballistic.
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Report this Post03-23-2015 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you made mention to the op that he should bore out his engine and rebuild it to get to 200 hp. I ask you specifics of this overbore on your setup and you claim its off topic? if I start a new topic will you answer? or is starting a new topic going ballistic too there crybaby? you brought up overbore as well as head flow in this topic. it is you who is going off topic if anyone is.

[This message has been edited by bigformula (edited 03-23-2015).]

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Report this Post03-23-2015 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

you made mention to the op that he should bore out his engine and rebuild it to get to 200 hp. I ask you specifics of this overbore on your setup and you claim its off topic? if I start a new topic will you answer? or is starting a new topic going ballistic too there crybaby? you brought up overbore as well as head flow in this topic. it is you who is going off topic if anyone is.


it is OT because this is my engine and not his engine. I have for a fact had a 3100 bored to 3.62" so that I can use Camaro pistons to keep my Formula on 87 octane. My Formula is my daily. The engine is not a performance build. How is suggesting he port his GEN2 heads a head flow topic? It's almost standard practice. You are just trolling. You can even search for posts I made where I bought an 86GT with a 3100 swap done and swapped out the long block from a 3400 because the 3100 had a bad head gasket. So as an owner of iron and aluminum head engines, I ask you to go troll somewhere else.
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Report this Post03-23-2015 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

it is OT because this is my engine and not his engine. I have for a fact had a 3100 bored to 3.62" so that I can use Camaro pistons to keep my Formula on 87 octane. My Formula is my daily. The engine is not a performance build. How is suggesting he port his GEN2 heads a head flow topic? It's almost standard practice. You are just trolling. You can even search for posts I made where I bought an 86GT with a 3100 swap done and swapped out the long block from a 3400 because the 3100 had a bad head gasket. So as an owner of iron and aluminum head engines, I ask you to go troll somewhere else.


you must be one of the dumbest people on here. I don't doubt you bored a 3.1 to 3.62. I specifically asked you if you had your bores sonic checked. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask why you didn't bore bigger and you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask if I start a new thread will you answer. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask you why you lie and say that fiero heads flow no better than gen 2 heads. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I will ask again. if I start a new thread, will you answer my questions? yes or no? its obvious you are the troll here. you tell the op to follow a specific path for his hp goals, then when I ask you specifics about why you say what you say, you claim its off topic and not relevant. why make suggestions, if when questioned you refuse to then share specifics?


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Report this Post03-23-2015 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:
you must be one of the dumbest people on here. I don't doubt you bored a 3.1 to 3.62. I specifically asked you if you had your bores sonic checked. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask why you didn't bore bigger and you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask if I start a new thread will you answer. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I ask you why you lie and say that fiero heads flow no better than gen 2 heads. you refused to answer and claim its not important. I will ask again. if I start a new thread, will you answer my questions? yes or no? its obvious you are the troll here. you tell the op to follow a specific path for his hp goals, then when I ask you specifics about why you say what you say, you claim its off topic and not relevant. why make suggestions, if when questioned you refuse to then share specifics?

Well, I don't owe you any answers and you continue to go off topic and have now resorted to insults. Typical.
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Report this Post03-23-2015 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
of course you don't owe anyone answers. not even the op right? if the op asked you the same questions as me, would you answer him? you just continue to say whatever you want, and then when i asked for specifics you name cal and make excuses as to why you refuse to answer. troll? way to be a stand up person. your posts helps the op with his turbo build non what so ever. I kept it on topic with turbo specific answers. you went off topic and talked about overbores and gen2 headflow vs fiero head flow. how dare I question you right?

[This message has been edited by bigformula (edited 03-23-2015).]

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Report this Post03-24-2015 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
http://www.fullthrottlev6.c...Info-%28with-pics%29

Lou you have done lots of great stuff with your car and I really enjoy reading your thread, and you are quite knowledgeable, but why do you keep making claims about the stock iron heads flowing as good as ANY of the aluminum heads? Yes the Gen III is the most superior, but the Gen II 100% stock still outflows race ported iron heads with larger valves.

I am solely referring to your comment of porting the Gen II heads because they flow the same as the iron heads.
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

(since GEN2 head flow no better than Fiero heads) .


I understand your point was just to say the Gen II heads flow poorly when compared to the Gen III heads (they flow more similarly to the 2.8 heads than the Gen III heads) and could benefit from a porting job. But the way you said it makes it seem like you are still beating the dead horse of iron VS aluminum heads.

And then a thread gets filled with arguing about iron vs aluminum heads. Again.

I know you didn't instigate it intentionally but can we all just agree that stock for stock for stock Gen III > Gen II > Gen I as far as flow bench numbers go? And ported Gen I will get outflowed by any stock aluminum head as we have seen. Not to mention the heart shaped combustion chambers and swirl promotion they incorporated into the heads, two other factors aside from flow that help make more power and use less fuel.

Whether you use iron vs aluminum is totally dependent on power goals and other factors. It is cool to have a stock top end on a better bottom end because it is more classic modded Fiero vs swapped Fiero. Also if power goals aren't extremely lofty and money is a concern then it is cheaper to stick with iron heads which won't limit you too much if you only trying to get to ~ 200 hp.

But if you just want to make the most power as your primary concern then it is silly to stick with Gen I heads as they are inferior in most ways.


To the OP, I would never put any meth injection on any of my cars. The forum has had its engines that melted due to these systems failing. Even on top dollar builds such as one bmwguru did for a member on here on a turbo 3800 (there's a build thread) the meth system failed and the engine was toast, and it wasn't any Chinese cheap Ebay Meth system either.

I have had a couple friends have meth systems fail as well and it has never been good you get massive insta-knock and it's pure luck whether the engine will be ok when you shut it down. I would definitely just do an intercooler setup, just do a water to air setup and be done with it. Grab a rear heater pump from a mini van at a junkyard and run some tubing under the car to the front to a heat exchanger which you can use any AC heat exchanger for, and usually W2A intercoolers aren't super pricey compared to nice A2A. And it will be small and can mount anywhere even down low to keep CG low. Then you can get the shortest amount of plumbing from turbo to intake to decrease lag and increase throttle response. You just need to calculate reservoir size based on how hard your driving is and maybe you could monitor reservoir temps to determine whether your driving style is saturating the cooling system and you need more capacity.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-24-2015).]

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Report this Post03-24-2015 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

of course you don't owe anyone answers. not even the op right? if the op asked you the same questions as me, would you answer him? you just continue to say whatever you want, and then when i asked for specifics you name cal and make excuses as to why you refuse to answer. troll? way to be a stand up person. your posts helps the op with his turbo build non what so ever. I kept it on topic with turbo specific answers. you went off topic and talked about overbores and gen2 headflow vs fiero head flow. how dare I question you right?


You went on-topic with the OP and off-topic with me. I gave my opinion and the OP asked me no further questions.
This thread is not a head debate. You don't like my opinion and I don't like that Republicans want to turn the economy around with corporate profits up, oil at a low and unemployment down. Oh well.
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Report this Post03-24-2015 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

You went on-topic with the OP and off-topic with me. I gave my opinion and the OP asked me no further questions.
This thread is not a head debate. You don't like my opinion and I don't like that Republicans want to turn the economy around with corporate profits up, oil at a low and unemployment down. Oh well.


why are you bringing politics into this? you have straight lost it man. that's trolling on your part for sure. .
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Report this Post03-24-2015 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Your not stuck with 200 hp with a v6 if you want to spend some money. A number of years ago Nascar played with the idea of the Cup cars using v8s and the then Bush cars using v6s. They were pumping out over 450 hp with a single 4 bbl with Ford and GM 280 ci. Ive seen complete ones pop up for sale a few times online.

https://www.google.com/sear...sAQ&biw=1094&bih=561

http://oval.race-cars.com/c...052/1059442052ss.htm



Thanks, those are incredibly cool but unfortunately I'm but a mere apprentice at a garage (soon will officially be a car mechanic) and my wage is such, so I can't spend a incredible amount of money like that on this project. But I will save up for as long as it takes to make sure I get good parts and such, and put enough time into it, instead of just jumping on in quick with poor quality stuff and such to get her to just run and then later break down again and keep bandaiding it it whatever.

As for zkhennings, many thanks for your advice, I guess just a good (water to air) intercooler setup would do best anyways.

For the two guys argueing and kind of clogging the thread up a bit, I respect the both of you, definitely, but please come on guys.

Edit:

I've picked up the engine last weekend and got some other parts for the Fiero as well.












The Grand Prix in the last picture is unrelated but when I went to this city this week it was parked behind my car, it's not often you see one here and a bit of a coincidence since I just got the Grand Prix engine :P

PS: How would I make these pictures be displayed a bit smaller here so that they aren't as damn huge? :P

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-25-2015).]

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Report this Post03-24-2015 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
will you take the compressor housing of the turbo off and measure the compressor wheel? curious how big that wheel is.
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quote
Originally posted by Renier:

PS: How would I make these pictures be displayed a bit smaller here so that they aren't as damn huge? :P



Edit the pictures in a graphics program like Microsoft Paint (there are others)...so they are 1000 pixels wide.
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Originally posted by Gall757:


Edit the pictures in a graphics program like Microsoft Paint (there are others)...so they are 1000 pixels wide.


Thanks, I've fixed them to fit here.

As for your question, Formula, I suppose I could do so when I've got some time. I'll be sure to check out the turbine if there isn't too much play on it, i.e. if it doesn't touch the sides or anything since I've been told that's how to determine whether it's an actual properly functioning turbo or scrap metal or only good for other parts.

Edit:

http://www.turbomaster.info...s/compressor_ihi.php

That might give you an idea already, as it's an IHI RHB5, but they seem to differ per exact version.

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-25-2015).]

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Report this Post03-25-2015 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This forum is getting full of new 'younuns' who claim they know about everything and dont believe any old school guys about anything. Its always evolving into a penis match, so just dont pay attention to them. You learn quick who to ignore or who to spit in the face of.
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Report this Post03-25-2015 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

This forum is getting full of new 'younuns' who claim they know about everything and dont believe any old school guys about anything. Its always evolving into a penis match, so just dont pay attention to them. You learn quick who to ignore or who to spit in the face of.



that directed at me? You want to spit in my face?
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Report this Post03-25-2015 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by bigformula:

that directed at me? You want to spit in my face?


Please don't do this, I respect you and your opinions on the matter and hand but let's stay on the matter at hand, let's stay on topic.

By the way, I think I might be better off just using my stock manifolds and welding them onto the flange on the exhaust bit of the turbo, right?

I mean, in all technicality custom manifolds would be better but also incredibly expensive. The thing I am worried about however is that the exhaust manifolds that are currently on there restrict the engine already, even without the turbo, due to emissions stuff in the U.S. or such.

Wouldn't then the best thing be to get such headers, possibly those specifically for the 3.1 being the absolute best (if it matters much, it's easier to get a way better deal on 3.4's after all but I wouldn't want something that really is worse for my engine) and have them come together into the turbo?

Sure, they'd be a bit longer (possibly twice as long yet have less sharp turns in them), and it's prefered to have the turbo as close to the exhaust ports as possible to keep turbo lag at and absolute minimum but isn't it still the way better choice?

Again, custom might be slightly better, but maybe also thrice as expensive.. more expensive than I paid for everything put together so far actually. Not that I'm not willing to save and spend well, but I don't want to severely overspend when there's little reason to do so.

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-25-2015).]

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Report this Post03-25-2015 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
no worries. its obvious roger is a troll with no ideas to contribute on his own about your turbo setup. as I stated before, slot your fiero exhaust manifolds to fit the gen 2 head bolt pattern. the exhaust ports are the same size for both engines. you just have to make sure the manifold lines up correctly. its not hard to do when doing the assembly. the stock fiero manifolds i think are stainless, and the gen 2 is cast iron. technically you can cut the iron flange off the gen 2 manifolds and weld them to the fiero exhaust manifolds. it is tricky and there is a process of welding cast iron to steel. the stock gen 2 manifolds aren't that restrictive, nor are the fieros since your goal is only 200 hp. any other manifold you use or build, you would then have to build a custom turbo y pipe. thats more expense and time. if you don't have extra money, then I say slot the bolt locations of the stock fiero exhaust manifolds.

another option is to take off the aluminum heads and intake and bolt the fiero heads and intake on. compression ratio would be low, but it would also be the cheapest solution if you are short on money.
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Report this Post03-25-2015 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

no worries. its obvious roger is a troll with no ideas to contribute on his own about your turbo setup. as I stated before, slot your fiero exhaust manifolds to fit the gen 2 head bolt pattern. the exhaust ports are the same size for both engines. you just have to make sure the manifold lines up correctly. its not hard to do when doing the assembly. the stock fiero manifolds i think are stainless, and the gen 2 is cast iron. technically you can cut the iron flange off the gen 2 manifolds and weld them to the fiero exhaust manifolds. it is tricky and there is a process of welding cast iron to steel. the stock gen 2 manifolds aren't that restrictive, nor are the fieros since your goal is only 200 hp. any other manifold you use or build, you would then have to build a custom turbo y pipe. thats more expense and time. if you don't have extra money, then I say slot the bolt locations of the stock fiero exhaust manifolds.

another option is to take off the aluminum heads and intake and bolt the fiero heads and intake on. compression ratio would be low, but it would also be the cheapest solution if you are short on money.


Wouldn't the Fiero manifolds be even more restrictive actually? My current y-pipe as seen in the picture is already a turbo y-pipe for stock Fiero manifolds. And how does one go about slotting manifolds to fit? As a matter of fact, what do you mean with slotting exactly (pardon my understanding of the word when used in this manner)? Is the bolting pattern the same, do you mean to make the holes bigger? I could maybe, just maybe, reuse my current y-pipe if it would fit, I have no idea. But wouldn't it be much easier and even not require an y-pipe if I just had the flange welded onto my 3.1 manifolds, since as seen in the pictures they don't use an y-pipe they already join each other.

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-25-2015).]

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Report this Post03-25-2015 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the fiero manifolds wouldn't be any more restrictive on the iron heads vs your 3.1 aluminum heads. the port size in the aluminum heads are the same size. slotting the manifolds means to enlarge the bolt holes, elongating them. yes another option which I didn't consider is to use a new flange and weld it to the stock 3.1 manifolds. you wouldnt need your y pipe then. you can buy a new ihi flange on ebay i am sure. if you do that, you could sell your y pipe to someone else and make some money back. don't cut off the flange from your y pipe, buy a new flange as that y pipe would be worthless for a turbo setup to sell with no flange. your idea might be the best option. you would just have to make sure the turbo would clear the trunk wall
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Report this Post03-26-2015 04:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

the fiero manifolds wouldn't be any more restrictive on the iron heads vs your 3.1 aluminum heads. the port size in the aluminum heads are the same size. slotting the manifolds means to enlarge the bolt holes, elongating them. yes another option which I didn't consider is to use a new flange and weld it to the stock 3.1 manifolds. you wouldnt need your y pipe then. you can buy a new ihi flange on ebay i am sure. if you do that, you could sell your y pipe to someone else and make some money back. don't cut off the flange from your y pipe, buy a new flange as that y pipe would be worthless for a turbo setup to sell with no flange. your idea might be the best option. you would just have to make sure the turbo would clear the trunk wall


Thanks, man, I'll see if it's possible to fit it like that with the trunk wall and all! And seems like I understood what you meant with slotting after all :P When it comes to this technical talk I understand about 90% of it but I've learned a lot of things in Dutch as well so it might just be that I don't fully understand what you mean due to me knowing the terms in Dutch but in some casses not fully in English/American while I do grasp the concept, you know what I mean?

And good idea to get a new turbo flange, probably shouldn't cost to much if I can find a good deal on one, and with my y-pipe I might be able to make some other Fiero or maybe even F-Body 2.8L (not sure if it'd fit though) owner with desires to turbocharge's life a lot easier actually if I can find someone like that. I'll try offering it for sale anyways, and see how that goes, there's no hurry so I could always still use the flange on there myself if I can't find someone to sell it to for enough money to buy a new flange.

Although the manifolds are not the same the exhaust would come to look a little something more like this (stolen from Joseph Upson):

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-26-2015).]

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Report this Post03-26-2015 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

the fiero manifolds wouldn't be any more restrictive on the iron heads vs your 3.1 aluminum heads. the port size in the aluminum heads are the same size. slotting the manifolds means to enlarge the bolt holes, elongating them. yes another option which I didn't consider is to use a new flange and weld it to the stock 3.1 manifolds. you wouldnt need your y pipe then. you can buy a new ihi flange on ebay i am sure. if you do that, you could sell your y pipe to someone else and make some money back. don't cut off the flange from your y pipe, buy a new flange as that y pipe would be worthless for a turbo setup to sell with no flange. your idea might be the best option. you would just have to make sure the turbo would clear the trunk wall


Not sure if your Fiero manifolds are ported but they have massive restrictions until they get ported. The attachment of the tubes coming from the head to the main tube of the manifold is a huge restriction as the hole in the main tube to accept gas from the perpendicular tubes is oval and not the same size. There is also a weld bead inside the perpendicular tubes where they meet the flange. It is very beneficial to weld the manifold to the flanges on the outside, then grind off the inside weld bead and open up the oval port to the same size as the tube.

Pics:

Before: Note the obvious weld bead and then a little deeper at the "oval" port opening.


After: All restrictions removed.




Personally for a turbo application I would rather have cast manifolds, it is my opinion that they can handle the high heat much better, especially due to their mass. It is not uncommon to use heavy schedule 40 piping weld elbows to make a turbo manifold, the thicker material has more mass and therefore the heat cycles are damped. It also helps keep heat in the manifolds too which keeps exhaust velocity up and helps the turbo spool. It is not a bad idea to clean up cast manifolds and have them sent out for ceramic coating. It is relatively inexpensive, will help performance by keeping exhaust velocity high, and it will lower under hood temperatures and protect against corrosion.

Definitely support your turbo from a bracket that bolts to the engine itself or manifolds will crack or sag under the weight and cyclic heat.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 03-26-2015).]

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Report this Post03-26-2015 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you can probably pick up a set of TGP exhaust manifolds fairly cheap(I bought a set for $50 at one point). They're heavy cast iron, and not nearly as prone to cracking as fiero manifolds.

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Report this Post03-26-2015 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

you can probably pick up a set of TGP exhaust manifolds fairly cheap(I bought a set for $50 at one point). They're heavy cast iron, and not nearly as prone to cracking as fiero manifolds.



That's pretty cool, and widening my stock Fiero manifolds would also be possible, but it's unlikely that I can get my hands on such manifolds especially from the Netherlands and with around 8 psi of boost through an intercooler are the stock 3.1L Grand Prix manifolds really at danger? Please do say so if I should be worried, I quite frankly have no idea.

[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-26-2015).]

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Report this Post03-27-2015 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ahh, I guess it helps to read... DOH. I can't see you having any problems with the cast manifolds.
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Report this Post03-28-2015 12:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No, it was directed at the ones who know who they are already that constantly beat down on anything anyone says about anything that dont agree with 'their' opinion. It has to do with many threads lately, not just this one. I figure owning and driving a turboed Fiero v6 for 7-8 years, I know something about them...more than some younger guys that read books on it. I wonder exactly how many of these self claimed 'experts' even own a car with a turbo that they added. Buying a turbo Neon does not make you a turbo expert. I dont proclaim to know everything about everything, I just put out my personal experience from anything in a thread and dont care what anyone thinks about it. They can take it or leave it. I just get pissed off at people who tell me something is wrong with what I say when I experienced it myself. The ones on here who know me are the only ones that can make those judgements. Its like I have a red car and people try to tell me im wrong, its black. Put me on defense, and I will defend and if THAT pisses YOU off...thats too bad too.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-28-2015).]

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Report this Post03-28-2015 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrittBSend a Private Message to BrittBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Renier, what is the car parked next to your Fiero? Not sure what it is but it looks very cool but I also like the old aircooled Saabs!
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Report this Post03-28-2015 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

No, it was directed at the ones who know who they are already that constantly beat down on anything anyone says about anything that dont agree with 'their' opinion. It has to do with many threads lately, not just this one. I figure owning and driving a turboed Fiero v6 for 7-8 years, I know something about them...more than some younger guys that read books on it. I wonder exactly how many of these self claimed 'experts' even own a car with a turbo that they added. Buying a turbo Neon does not make you a turbo expert. I dont proclaim to know everything about everything, I just put out my personal experience from anything in a thread and dont care what anyone thinks about it. They can take it or leave it. I just get pissed off at people who tell me something is wrong with what I say when I experienced it myself. The ones on here who know me are the only ones that can make those judgements. Its like I have a red car and people try to tell me im wrong, its black. Put me on defense, and I will defend and if THAT pisses YOU off...thats too bad too.



either way, did you not listen to the op? he does not want trash like your post above in his thread. take it somewhere else troll.

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Report this Post03-29-2015 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:


either way, did you not listen to the op? he does not want trash like your post above in his thread. take it somewhere else troll.


What the heck... come on, man, I don't want to point fingers but if anyone is disturbing the thread it's you, you seem to be the only one the others have problems with. Please keep your cool, mate.

 
quote
Originally posted by BrittB:

Renier, what is the car parked next to your Fiero? Not sure what it is but it looks very cool but I also like the old aircooled Saabs!


It's cool you'd ask, the car is actually a Wartburg, I was planning to take it out of hibernation yesterday but unfortunately something got inbetween. Needs a good wash, some new battery cables which I've already made (original ones had aluminum cores which were oxidized to a point they wouldn't function anymore, just heat up), fuel tank needs to be cleaned and refilled and the contact points in the distributor need to be cleaned, that's pretty much it. Unlike a lot of it's kind it was liquid cooled and two-stroke actually, pretty interesting and special car if you ask me.





[This message has been edited by Renier (edited 03-29-2015).]

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Report this Post03-30-2015 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would stick with the stock manifolds they will be fine, just make sure you support the turbo
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Report this Post03-30-2015 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:


either way, did you not listen to the op? he does not want trash like your post above in his thread. take it somewhere else troll.


I see it as your the know it all troll. Ive been here 15 years with tens of thousands of posts. You have 50 posts and think your king dip shittt. ?

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Report this Post03-30-2015 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

rogergarrison

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quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

that directed at me? You want to spit in my face?


Id rather just punch you in it.

Sorry bout that Ranier. I just stopped putting up with being bullied years ago. Im out.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-30-2015).]

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Report this Post03-30-2015 06:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:


I see it as your the know it all troll. Ive been here 15 years with tens of thousands of posts. You have 50 posts and think your king dip shittt. ?


No I think you hold the title of king dip "shittt" around here. a little research show you are quite the liar too. feel free to personal message me from here on out instead of trolling up someone elses thread.

 
quote
Id rather just punch you in it.


threats of personal violence. how adult of you.

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Report this Post03-30-2015 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
another reason this forum needs moderatorS

the OP has asked both of you to knock it off, take it to PM if it's so important.


To the OP. the two stroke is interesting, is the radiator behind the engine?

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"The day I tried to live, I stole a thousand beggars' change and gave it to the rich."
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post03-31-2015 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I would stick with the stock manifolds they will be fine, just make sure you support the turbo


They'll be fine for a while but before very long the stock Fiero manifolds will crack and or warp for sure. They already run redhot without a turbo. I've been boosting Fieros since 96 and I couldn't get rid of the exhaust leaks until I finally switched to cast iron. Even 14 gauge steel headers took a beating. You shouldn't heat wrap the exhaust parts between the heads and the turbo either, at least not thoroughly, more of a shield or blanket style approach is better as it promotes warping of cast iron manifolds and surface flaking from the intense heat. It might not be as problematic for a car driven short distances or for brief periods daily but a commuter will take its toll on a well heat wrapped system between the heads and the turbo.

In the picture seen above of my turbo manifold arrangement, a few months later during a tear down and rebuild I found I needed to cut both manifolds in two, mount them to the heads and then weld them back together because they warped due to the extreme heat caused by the wrap.

You should also order exhaust studs as the bolts will start to work themselves loose which was a real headache as it caused idle problems and tuning mistakes. Exhaust leaks will really work your nerves as you may have drive-ability problems that you may not realize right away are tied to them.
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Report this Post04-01-2015 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RenierClick Here to Email RenierSend a Private Message to RenierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

another reason this forum needs moderatorS

the OP has asked both of you to knock it off, take it to PM if it's so important.


To the OP. the two stroke is interesting, is the radiator behind the engine?



It sure is, haha

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


They'll be fine for a while but before very long the stock Fiero manifolds will crack and or warp for sure. They already run redhot without a turbo. I've been boosting Fieros since 96 and I couldn't get rid of the exhaust leaks until I finally switched to cast iron. Even 14 gauge steel headers took a beating. You shouldn't heat wrap the exhaust parts between the heads and the turbo either, at least not thoroughly, more of a shield or blanket style approach is better as it promotes warping of cast iron manifolds and surface flaking from the intense heat. It might not be as problematic for a car driven short distances or for brief periods daily but a commuter will take its toll on a well heat wrapped system between the heads and the turbo.

In the picture seen above of my turbo manifold arrangement, a few months later during a tear down and rebuild I found I needed to cut both manifolds in two, mount them to the heads and then weld them back together because they warped due to the extreme heat caused by the wrap.

You should also order exhaust studs as the bolts will start to work themselves loose which was a real headache as it caused idle problems and tuning mistakes. Exhaust leaks will really work your nerves as you may have drive-ability problems that you may not realize right away are tied to them.


Many thanks for sharing your experience with me, Joseph! So you would strongly recommend a custom manifold after all? Sounds like I should keep the car for the occasional Sunday drives if I plan on using stock manifolds, then save up for custom manifolds. Or are you saying that I should use the stock Fiero manifolds and modify them for use with the 3.1 turbo? How would 2.8 Camaro manifolds do by the way, would they fit (taken I get a custom y-pipe)? I still happen to have some lying around, they seem pretty solid. Don't forget that I'm not looking for that much boost, just something to get me around 200hp, I'd imagine you're working with rather different figures here, yet you did mention that they already nearly have problems stock. Thanks again!

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