Hey everyone, has anyone tried out carbon ceramic brakes on a high hp Fiero? I keep seeing how amazing they are at braking. But i cant seem to find any aftermarket carbon ceramic brakes for a fiero. Just the big cars like corvette, gtr ect....does anyone know of a source???
What year is your Fiero? If it's an 88 there are some options. With a bit of modification an HP100 pad for a Wilwood caliper can be used. They are available in a ton of compounds. I've been using the HP Plus pads on my race car for years.
Pegasus Racing has them as well as most suppliers. The HB100 pad fits the Willwood Dynalite caliper. The pad has to be narrowed a bit to fit between the bridge of our 88 calipers and the holes drilled out a little to fit the pins. It is the correct thickness at just under .500" They have a lot of compounds to choose from base on what you are doing. I run the HP Plus pads for racing, they work great even when cool, don't require a lot of heat, are fade resistant, rotor friendly and don't dust up. I have since modified my caliper bridge by grinding them out a bit so I don't have to grind the pads, just enlarge the holes and I'm good to go. I found this by searching for an alternative and experimenting after I found Pegasus site with size charts for different pads. Let me know how you make out.
Hey everyone, has anyone tried out carbon ceramic brakes on a high hp Fiero? I keep seeing how amazing they are at braking. But i cant seem to find any aftermarket carbon ceramic brakes for a fiero. Just the big cars like corvette, gtr ect....does anyone know of a source???
What is your intended use? To keep from spending money on upgrades you won't get any benefit from or don't need, it's important to know what you're trying to accomplish first. Often people hear something is "better" and they want "better" so they go for it.
What kind of situations do you envision in your Fiero that the stock brakes will not be adequate? What kind of racing do you do? Braking needs on a drag car will be different from a road race or circle track car.
You don't really have a need for them on a Fiero because even a heavily modded high HP application still weighs 400 pounds or more less than the cars you are referring too. My N* with a 293 lb 4T80 weighs 3063 lbs and the Wilwood kit stops it hard enough to leave a seat-belt imprint on your chest. I'm not sure I would want to stop any faster personally. Where the Carbon Ceramic brakes really make a difference is resistance to fading due to excess heat when racing on a track. Other than track use carbon ceramic brakes are a waste of money on cars that never see a track. If I was building a fiero for the track I still would not waste the money on them. A good two piece rotor with air ducts cooling them will be more than enough on a track in a Fiero. For tracking purposes I would spend the money you would be throwing away on ceramic brakes for other things like Norms Flipper hood to ensure plenty of down force, cooling, and wight loss of roughly a 100 pounds of mass. The Wilwood brake setup with race specific pads and dedicated rims with R-rated Max Performance Summer tires on them as well. Then I would look at swapping in an all aluminum high power out put engine with a good tranny to lose weight out back ( not a N*/4T80 ;o). Probably spend $500 on one of those lithium batteries that weigh 4 lbs (another 31 lbs dropped). And that's just off the top of my head. The less your car weighs the less braking force is required to bring it to a stop...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-19-2015).]
Originally posted by mcguiver3: I would also through this out.... Carbon ceramic pads work best with a bit of heat in them and are not good for street use.
Many "race" pads are like this. You have big problems using them on the street because street driving never get pad hot enough to work.
Wagner TQ and others Ceramic pads are very good and work for street use.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Many "race" pads are like this. You have big problems using them on the street because street driving never get pad hot enough to work.
Wagner TQ and others Ceramic pads are very good and work for street use.
This may be a dumb question then but, what about cars like the corvette z06 or Camero z28 that come stock with carbon ceramic brakes...those cars arnt always on the track and are used for daily driving. How do they make it work for them?
The answer is that "big problems" is a big exaggeration, and modern brake pad compounds address the "don't work when cold" scenario to a more than satisfactory degree. It's odd to suggest a problem with carbon ceramic pads and then go on to recommend ceramic pads in the same breath. They both suffer the same issues. Brake pad are necessarily a compromise between low temp performance and high temp performance, there is no way around that. There is no magic compound that always works optimally. Wagner ceramic thermoquiets don't offer near the cold stopping power that their semi-metallic thermoquiets do, but they pay you back with less fade and less mess. Sometimes it's a compromise worth making, you gotta know your application.
Originally posted by jediperk:Where the Carbon Ceramic brakes really make a difference is resistance to fading due to excess heat when racing on a track.
Pretty sure the primary point of carbon ceramic brakes is actually reducing unsprung weight, where composite rotors can shave 5-10lbs per corner. As rotors have gotten bigger, they've packed on a lot of weight which hurts handling. While it's certainly true composite brakes reject thermal loads far better than cast iron rotors, I don't think you'll find many applications outside of, say, F1, where brake fade was a problem that composite brakes addressed. On super- and hyper-cars, it's about reducing unsprung weight without losing braking.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 02-19-2015).]
Pretty sure the primary point of carbon ceramic brakes is actually reducing unsprung weight, where composite rotors can shave 5-10lbs per corner. As rotors have gotten bigger, they've packed on a lot of weight which hurts handling. While it's certainly true composite brakes reject thermal loads far better than cast iron rotors, I don't think you'll find many applications outside of, say, F1, where brake fade was a problem that composite brakes addressed. On super- and hyper-cars, it's about reducing unsprung weight without losing braking.
Carbon Cermaic brakes don't have a primary purpose. They are lighter than iron rotors, but the weight advantage over two piece rotors with aluminum hats is not as significant. Think about it. A 12" two piece rotor for the Fiero only weighs 10.7 lbs. You are not going to get too much lighter than that even with Ceramics. Now, on a 15-16" rotor like the super 'Vettes use you might save some noticeable weight even over the two piece. But not on what a Fiero would be utilizing. The best benefit is the resistance to brake fade that leads to more consistent braking lap after lap. There are other benefits too though. They reduce warping, generate more friction, last longer than Iron rotors and resist corrosion maintaining a more aesthetic appearance. Until the costs come down though, they are for hard core racers and the 1%er crowd (which are often one and the same). I have used brake pads with carbon ceramic mixed in and generally like them. Though, if you get the carbon ceramic brake pads for racing use be prepared to hear a lot of squeaking if the pads are not warm.
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-19-2015).]
Thats interesting bcc i heard the carbon ceramic brakes DONT make noise and that was one of the other options i liked... And while this discussion is def helpful...i still dont see an option while searching for days on google for a rotor that will work on the Fiero. I see no kit, no after market rotor that you can buy online that will fit the Fiero, just corvettes, GTR's ect.
I understand that putting these brakes on production cars is generally new. Im surprised however the lack of aftermarket options for this design.
If you get the ones designed for street use they won't squeak and they don't leave brake dust everywhere which is my personal favorite feature of them. If you get the pads that are designed for racing though, squeak, squeak, and more squeak. I learned that lesson the hard way thanks to the dude at Summit not answering my question correctly...
Any update / new pics on your new 2.4 turbo setup?
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-20-2015).]
Link to the pads TFS sales... If I had an 88 like you I would use these pads with the two piece 12" C4 rotors and the "$100 Brake Upgrade" (upgraded brake booster) that is sold here in the Mall for closer to $200 than $100 in all honesty but still well worth the $$. The most expensive part is the 12" two piece C4 rotors at $1100, but they weigh almost exactly the same as the stock rotors on an 88 so you don't pick up any unsprung weight while upgrading your braking system and that is huge...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-20-2015).]
You can get the stuff you need for the C4 conversion including the two-piece rotors from WCF or another member here on the forum sales a kit in the mall. The C4 kit uses the existing calipers and e-brake. You are essentially upgrading your rotors (and most likely brake pads). It in combination with the bigger brake booster is probably your best bang for the buck if you have an 88. The Wilwood or Brembo kit is better due to four piston aluminum calipers, but way more expensive too. The only reason I went this route on mine was I got mine from a member who sold them to me for $2k. Which is less than the C4 upgrade utilzing the 'Vette's calipers from WCF that I would of had to use b/c mine is an 87. Also, your conversion is a LOT lighter than mine is and honestly I would not be surprised if your car could brake every bit as hard as mine with the C4 rotors, good pads and the brake booster upgrade. You probably lost some weight with your conversion going to an all aluminum motor even with the turbo and extra plumbing.
Thats interesting bcc i heard the carbon ceramic brakes DONT make noise and that was one of the other options i liked... And while this discussion is def helpful...i still dont see an option while searching for days on google for a rotor that will work on the Fiero. I see no kit, no after market rotor that you can buy online that will fit the Fiero, just corvettes, GTR's ect.
I understand that putting these brakes on production cars is generally new. Im surprised however the lack of aftermarket options for this design.
You're not going to find carbon rotors for a Fiero anywhere. If you want carbon or carbon/ceramic rotors specifically for a Fiero, you're going to have to get them custom made, which will only add to the cost. If you're doing a 12-13" brake upgrade, you might be able to find Corvette or Viper rotors that you can use, but you will need to have them drilled for the Fiero bolt pattern (unless you also do a hub conversion to get the larger bolt circle), the same as you would have to do with steel rotors.
Originally posted by jediperk: You probably lost some weight with your conversion going to an all aluminum motor even with the turbo and extra plumbing.
Probably not much. All info I can find seems to suggest a Gen II Ecotec long block is around 310-330 lbs dry weight, and all the turbo and plumbing probably brings up to around what the stock 2.8 weighs, if not a little more.
Hmm...i will look into getting corvette carbon ceramic rotors and re-drilling them, thats a good idea.
Im curious about the weight too. Im getting my car weighed on all 4 corners to see what we are at. She def feels lighter...not just bcc of the extra hp...we will see!
I dont much care about pricing as i do performance, i really want brembo's...but the e-brake sucks...i hate the Fiero ebrake system. I wish there was something u can do to fix it and make it work consistently with no maintenance...i hear the spot calipers for the brake conversions just dont hold well...
Does anyone know about the C5 upgrade? does the e-brake work well on that caliper?
Probably not much. All info I can find seems to suggest a Gen II Ecotec long block is around 310-330 lbs dry weight, and all the turbo and plumbing probably brings up to around what the stock 2.8 weighs, if not a little more.
It will be real close. The 2.8 weighs 362 lbs without the a/c pump. It's probably around 370 with it. The 2.4L LE5 weighs 307 lbs (it weighs more than an LNF b/c the LNF has a Forged STEEL crank and the LE5 has a nodular IRON crank). So, yeah after adding the extra weight of the turbo it probably does weigh in about the same. The plumbing is tricky b/c you will have less exhaust plumbing with the Ecotec but more intake plumbing so those probably come close to offsetting one another. It's still an awsome accomplishment to swap in an engine with twice the power and not pick up weight though...
Anyone should be cautious about going to harder pads when running OEM rotors, in my opinion. There is a wear trade-off between the rotor and the pad. Harder pads mean the rotor will wear quicker. I'd rather replace a set of pads than a rotor. A complete brake upgrade to include larger diameter rotors and calipers from another vehicle with corresponding pads should be sufficient for most Fieros.
You're not going to find carbon rotors for a Fiero anywhere. If you want carbon or carbon/ceramic rotors specifically for a Fiero, you're going to have to get them custom made, which will only add to the cost. If you're doing a 12-13" brake upgrade, you might be able to find Corvette or Viper rotors that you can use, but you will need to have them drilled for the Fiero bolt pattern (unless you also do a hub conversion to get the larger bolt circle), the same as you would have to do with steel rotors.
I tried searching for those and the 'Vette and Viper ceramic brake upgrades are all 15-16". I couldn't find any ceramics that would work with a Fiero.
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Does anyone know about the C5 upgrade? does the e-brake work well on that caliper?
The C5 uses a parking brake shoe system, unlike the Fiero's caliper parking brake. I think you'd need to swap hubs and everything to be able to use the C5 parking brake: http://www.corvettepartswor...king_Brake_s/248.htm
Carbon/carbon brakes, but doesn't look like the hats could be drilled for a Fiero. Though, one could make custom hats, and probably just buy new carbon discs. Probably the best option if one really wants carbon brakes on a Fiero.
lol..this is a headach haha. I guess i'll have to wait for the aftermarket to catch up, i just want a 12'' carbon ceramic rotor i can re-drill and use with either the C5 calipers, Wilwood or brembo's. But i also want a working e-brake without Frankenstein-ing everything. Woa is me...lol...
Much like with $46k Mustang GTs that weigh 3800lbs, I would encourage you to double check your facts.
I did on both accounts and I believe I even posted the link for the source of the Mustang info. Also, having the benefit of having tracked cars and spent 6 years driving on the autobahn in Germany day in and day out I'm a pretty good reference in my own right on this particular subject. Having fade free brakes that allow you to consistently hit the same spot in the braking zones is a huge and much more relevant benefit (to me) over the couple pounds at the most of weight savings in unsprung weight that all but a few professional drivers would even notice or feel a difference in a Fiero. Again, on something with 15-16" brake rotors the weight savings would make more of a difference, but this post is about Fiero's and for me at least fade free braking would still be the most important advantage for any car as it allows for greater consistency and confidence. Here is an excerpt from the link in Dobeys' post:
Carbon brakes were initially developed by Strange Engineering in the 80’s to eliminate brake fade and allow for safe braking under immense loads by Top Fuel and funny car teams. Carbon greatly reduces rotating weight when compared to steel and cast iron brake kits. Carbon is unique material that can withstand “white” hot temperatures during braking. Carbon rotors are virtually immune to thermal shock which can caused steel and cast iron rotor to warp, crack, and potentially fail.
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-20-2015).]
lol..this is a headach haha. I guess i'll have to wait for the aftermarket to catch up, i just want a 12'' carbon ceramic rotor i can re-drill and use with either the C5 calipers, Wilwood or brembo's. But i also want a working e-brake without Frankenstein-ing everything. Woa is me...lol...
I feel ya man. I got so lucky with my Wilwood find. If you are able to drive down here sometime this spring/summer I'll let you drive mine and you can see what the Wilwoods' feel like.
Carbon/carbon brakes, but doesn't look like the hats could be drilled for a Fiero. Though, one could make custom hats, and probably just buy new carbon discs. Probably the best option if one really wants carbon brakes on a Fiero.
Great post. Those might actually be made to work with a Fiero and the price was not even as astronomical as I would have expected (they were still expensive though...)
Originally posted by jediperk: Having fade free brakes that allow you to consistently hit the same spot in the braking zones is a huge and much more relevant benefit (to me) over the couple pounds at the most of weight savings in unsprung weight that all but a few professional drivers would even notice or feel a difference in a Fiero. Again, on something with 15-16" brake rotors the weight savings would make more of a difference, but this post is about Fiero's and for me at least fade free braking would still be the most important advantage for any car as it allows for greater consistency and confidence.
Full carbon rotors that are on F1 cars are 10.9" max, and weigh about 3 lbs. It's probably not really worth the cost on a stock Fiero, but rotors that only weighed 3 lbs would make a huge difference in acceleration/braking response. The ~13" rotors on my truck are ridiculous. They weigh about 26 lbs each.
If I could get full carbon brakes for my Fiero at a decent price, I would probably do it. The performance benefit they can offer is huge, and would be fun to see people go "WTF?!" at car shows when they spot the big carbon fiber disc behind the wheels.
Full carbon rotors that are on F1 cars are 10.9" max, and weigh about 3 lbs. It's probably not really worth the cost on a stock Fiero, but rotors that only weighed 3 lbs would make a huge difference in acceleration/braking response. The ~13" rotors on my truck are ridiculous. They weigh about 26 lbs each.
If I could get full carbon brakes for my Fiero at a decent price, I would probably do it. The performance benefit they can offer is huge, and would be fun to see people go "WTF?!" at car shows when they spot the big carbon fiber disc behind the wheels.
I think the two piece rotors in my Wilwood kit weighed around 11-12 lbs. You are right though, it would be really cool at the car shows. I called the company in your link and talked to the tech support and he said they could not be fitted to a Fiero b/c the rotors are custom drilled for a specific hat and can't be re-drilled for a different one. I think I'm going to give Wilwood a call and see if they have a time frame for offering carbon ceramic rotors yet...
I called Wilwood and they only have them in the 14" size. If you had C5 hubs I think you could make these work with 18" rims. He said that they will probably have them in other sizes down the road but it would not be any time soon...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-20-2015).]
truth be told, id LOVE to upgrade to 18'' wheels, bcc those advan gt black racing wheels are SWEET! and u can get rotors and brakes np...but i feel like 18'' is too big on a fiero.....UGH....yet another wall, haha.
Jedi, how did u get your wilwoods? What r they off of?
Pegasus Racing has them as well as most suppliers. The HB100 pad fits the Willwood Dynalite caliper. The pad has to be narrowed a bit to fit between the bridge of our 88 calipers and the holes drilled out a little to fit the pins. It is the correct thickness at just under .500" They have a lot of compounds to choose from base on what you are doing. I run the HP Plus pads for racing, they work great even when cool, don't require a lot of heat, are fade resistant, rotor friendly and don't dust up. I have since modified my caliper bridge by grinding them out a bit so I don't have to grind the pads, just enlarge the holes and I'm good to go. I found this by searching for an alternative and experimenting after I found Pegasus site with size charts for different pads. Let me know how you make out.
Bob
Thats awesome. Which would be good for stock, spirited street use?
Originally posted by 4thfiero: This may be a dumb question then but, what about cars like the corvette z06 or Camero z28 that come stock with carbon ceramic brakes...those cars arnt always on the track and are used for daily driving. How do they make it work for them?
All new cars must meet FMVSS brake rules for street use. Like Semi-metallic pads, Any Ceramic pads the actual Formula to make them matters allot.
You can get "race" Semi-metallic pads that doesn't work well on the street. People here have/had used them and posted this problem... These product are meant to be use on race only cars that are trailer/towed to the track.
Originally posted by jediperk: I think the two piece rotors in my Wilwood kit weighed around 11-12 lbs. You are right though, it would be really cool at the car shows. I called the company in your link and talked to the tech support and he said they could not be fitted to a Fiero b/c the rotors are custom drilled for a specific hat and can't be re-drilled for a different one. I think I'm going to give Wilwood a call and see if they have a time frame for offering carbon ceramic rotors yet...
Well, I presume one could make a hat that fit the rotors. It would be nice to find some place that could just make custom full carbon rotors to any specification. I'm sure there's a company somewhere that could do it, but it would probably be very expensive.
