truth be told, id LOVE to upgrade to 18'' wheels, bcc those advan gt black racing wheels are SWEET! and u can get rotors and brakes np...but i feel like 18'' is too big on a fiero.....UGH....yet another wall, haha.
Jedi, how did u get your wilwoods? What r they off of?
I got my kit from another member here who sold his Fiero before he could install them. He listed the entire kit, front and rear for $2k in the mall and I jumped all over that deal...
Ah yes, ive seen those wilwoods, there on my list! I like the adjustable brake bias...
So i guess my next question should be, what would u guys recommend for rotors and pads in the "well rounded" area, both track and street.
You have to give us a budget to work with. Your car being an 88 you have more cost effective options than the rest of us in the 84-87 croud. Your brake system is already good to start with...
You have to give us a budget to work with. Your car being an 88 you have more cost effective options than the rest of us in the 84-87 croud. Your brake system is already good to start with...
He just spent $$$$$ to have a turbo Ecotec built, swapped in, and tuned. He stated he's willing to pay for Brembos. I don't think budget much matters, and he's just looking for answers.
The main factor is really how big you want the rotors/wheels to be, and if you want to stay with 5x100mm or jump to 5x4.75" bolt circle.
LOL, your right dobey...budget is not a huge factor in this discussion. I wanna build a precision performance machine, right now after the engine swap she's more of a performance beast. She has the high speed, the crazy acceleration and low end torque, which is all fine and awesome. But i want her to handle.
I read this article (cant remember where) where the mission statement at the time was something like "unleashing the Fiero's TRUE potential, striving to make the car what it should have been from the start"
Granted the Fiero is an old car, it was ahead of its time in the 80's (more the 88), and if it wasn't for those budget cuts and gm ppl not wanting it to outdo the Corvette back in the day, it could have been a beast from the start. I really liked this mission statement, i believe the Fiero has a tone of hidden potential and can still wow modern cars, modified or not. Or at the very LEAST run with them on a track.
Now that I have an outstanding engine in the car to push her, I do wanna upgrade everything else handling wise, im gonna take some track driving courses to really learn how to handle the car, but i am also going to get a professional driver and suspension tuner to take her around the track and tune the cars handling. I think thats as close as im going to get to say buying a new Camaro z28 or nissan gtr that has has countless hours of track time tuning to get it right. BUT also like those cars that perform amazing on tracks, they can also be daily drivers...and THATS what im after..a well rounded track/daily driver Fiero.
But before I can do that, I wanna upgrade the brakes, suspension and tires (wheels) I will list what Im currently thinking below and if i could get your opinions and suggestions that would be fantastic! I really appreciate all of you and your expertise. Here's what im thinking so far...
1) I need to install a rear sway bar still
2) Arraut motorsports 88 coil over kits and tubular front suspension
3) Bushings (im unsure on this one, poly would probably be best for track purposes, but in the winter and stuff...maybe rubber..or rubber on the front but poly in the rear? I also dont like holy poly can squeak)
4) Brakes...Brembo, C5's or Wilwoods. I like the adjustable brake bias valve on the Wilwoods, and I love Brembo brakes...but the ebrake sucks. C5 i have to research more...and im still trying to decide on the best rotors and pads...and like you guys were saying, i need to decide what size rotor and type of hub
5) Tires, i like the Pirelli studded winter performance tires for winter driving and racing, for summer...i WANTED either Pirelli p zero's or Michelin pilot sport cups or super sports...but they dont make those tires for 16'' wheels and i would have to upgrade to 17 or 18'' wheels...im unsure of a 16'' tire i would want...
5) Wheels (biggest concern), currently i have the centerline 928 16'' (i believe 16x7 front and 16x8 rear) that were made specifically for the Fiero back in the day when you could buy them. Of course 16'' wheels limits my tire and brake options....the issue i have with going to a bigger wheels is looks...the Fiero is a small car and going to bigger wheels sometimes looks dumb. I know 17's look pretty cool, but most of the 18'' i see look way to big for the car...(although some 18'' wheels look pretty good and i dont know why) But if i upgrade my wheels in the summer for 17 or 18 and get a nice brake kit...come winter i cant use my centerline 16'' wheels bcc they will no longer fit bcc of the brakes. Then i need ANOTHER new set of 17'' or 18'' for winter and sell my Centerline's which im not too excited to do.
In a perfect world if it looked good. Id get Advan GT black 18'' wheels with Pirelli p zeros or the Michelin pilot sport cups. Upgrade my brakes and be done with it...but again...if i do that...im worried 18'' will look way too big for my car, and since ill have a wider tire in the front, im worried about how it will effect turning effort on a rack and pinion system...
If i go 17'' i still cant use my centerlines bcc of the bigger brakes, but i can go Pirelli pzero on those and im not to concerned with the steering effort.
When it comes to the hubs?? i hadnt really considered changing the pcd...if i did that...is that an easy swap to do? are there BETTER hubs out there than whats avail for an 88 Fiero in that different pcd? Do u have to machine or fab anything to make them fit?
Steven Snyder has probably done the best job of enhancing the 88 Fiero track performance... you might want to review what he has done to his car. The devil is in the details and making sure that every component works to compliment the overall setup vs. just slapping a collection of parts together. http://steventsnyder.com/cars/1988-pontiac-fiero/
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-21-2015).]
The Fiero isn't so small that larger wheels will look bad. 17"-18" will look fine (unless you get ugly wheels or insanely wide ones). It's not like an older Honda where anything over 15" makes it look like you're trying to 4x4 your Civic.
Changing the hubs to use a larger bolt circle is a lot of work. There are also a lot of things which should affect your decision to go to hubs. The larger bolt circle opens up a greater selection of wheels and brake rotors. It might also be easier to get quality bearings for larger hubs. There are no uprights which currently support the C5/C6 hub assemblies though, so to use those would require manufacturing new uprights. You'd want to do FEA on any custom suspension parts, especially if you want to track the car. There is a way to convert to the larger pattern using S-10 and Corvair hubs. There's a thread or three somewhere on here about that.
Steven Snyder has probably done the best job of enhancing the 88 Fiero track performance... you might want to review what he has done to his car. The devil is in the details and making sure that every component works to compliment the overall setup vs. just slapping a collection of parts together. http://steventsnyder.com/cars/1988-pontiac-fiero/
I've pretty much decided his car is the blueprint of how a Fiero should be set up. That's an awesome setup.
I paid the dollar to watch the full video on his car's setup, pretty darn impressive. Id really like to pick his brain...i PM'd him, but no response yet. Thanks for pointing me in his direction!
There aren't any brake kits from "big" supplers "for" the Fiero. Any brake upgrades you put on must be adapted.
No brakes survive track use without ducting and airflow. You need LOTS of airflow to carry away the heat from the brakes, whether iron or carbon. Use 4" ducts if you can fit them.
There aren't any brake kits from "big" supplers "for" the Fiero. Any brake upgrades you put on must be adapted.
No brakes survive track use without ducting and airflow. You need LOTS of airflow to carry away the heat from the brakes, whether iron or carbon. Use 4" ducts if you can fit them.
I was thinking this same thing for track use. I know arraut and wcf sale the Brembo and Wilwood kits, does any sale a brake duct kit?
Not that i can see, i do have 2 (vents) in the front of my bumper above the turn signal lenses. I found universal kits i can make work to get my brakes vented. Still just trying to decide on a good braking system. I really do want the Brembo's or Wilwoods to work. Especially the Brembo's. But I wanna be able to adjust the braking bias and get a GOOD ebrake...I wanna be able to park my car alongside Spiderman on the side of a building and not have her move an inch O_o....kay not quite that but at least on a good hill
How much does your car weigh over the front axle? How about the rear? What tires are you going to use? How much horsepower does your car make at the wheels? What tracks are you going to be driving on?
When you can answer those questions you're ready to start shopping for a braking system. Until then, your effort should be spent on answering those questions.
quote
Originally posted by Will: No brakes survive track use without ducting and airflow. You need LOTS of airflow to carry away the heat from the brakes, whether iron or carbon. Use 4" ducts if you can fit them.
Don't add any ducting unless you are reaching the temperature limit of your calipers / fluid. You'll be unhappy with the rate at which you crack your brake rotors due to thermal shock.
I have zero brake ducting with my skinny 12" rotors and Porterfield R4 race pads in the stock calipers. I have no problem with these brakes at Buttonwillow Raceway or Auto Club Speedway, except for the constant seizing of the slides, and the limit on pad life due to their small size. They still last a full weekend at either track though.
THERE YOU ARE! lol iv'e PM'd you my friend, also emailed.
Im weighing my car this weekend to get those numbers, my car makes 310 WHP, 309 flb of torque.
The tires are dependent on my wheel size and i trying to figure out the best option for size. I'd like to go 17 or 18, then i can use the Michelin pilot Sport cups or Super Sports, as well as the Pirelli p-zero tires. And get a brake kit. But im wondering how my handling and steering effort will be like on 17 or 18'' tires.
Tracks I will be driving on will be the Gimli Motorsport Park to start. And the mean streets of Winnipeg, MB. Both racing punks in there daddy bmw's and mothers Mercedes,and daily driving. I also take road trips to Edmonton.
I want to build a well rounded track/daily driver car....tune the suspension for daily driving, but can jam if need be...then be able to tune for the track. Just have that option.
Also, if it helps, i recently found out i can get JRZ to custom build a bolt in shock/spring kit specifically for the 88 Fiero with my 4 corner weights. Using the RS or RS pro model.
Originally posted by 4thfiero: The tires are dependent on my wheel size and i trying to figure out the best option for size
You have that backwards.
Choose your tires (size based on corner weights, tread type and rubber compound based on intended use), then order wheels that will allow you to put those tires on the car.
But the problem is i dont know how those size tires/wheels are going to feel. I dont wanna pick the tires i want and spend all the money just to find out it sucks, lol.
I know u have that power steering rack on your car, did u ever drive the 88 Fiero with 17 or 18 in wheels without it? was it annoying?
Well right now im leaning towards this setup...maybe u can tell me if these will work. I assumed bigger wheels gave a more difficult steering effort. but i see what your saying, thanks for the correction.
17'' Wheels, using either Pirelli p-zero 225/45//17 on front and 235/45/17 in rear OR Michelin Pilot Super Sports 225/45/17 front and 245/45/17 rear
With a Brembo 12 or 13'' brake setup...but the only thing i hate about the brembo setup is the sport type ebrake. apparently it cant hold for squat.
The diameter of the wheels doesn't have an effect on the steering effort.
The steering effort is primarily dependent on caster, scrub radius / steering offset, and steering ratio...
Tire diameter and wheel offset work together on steering offset.
Also, with ~80 more whp (@$$uming the car has enough cooling capacity to keep that power longer than one lap) in probably a lighter car, he's going to have a lot more speed to shed than your car would on the same track... so he'll be harder on his brakes.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-23-2015).]
Don't add any ducting unless you are reaching the temperature limit of your calipers / fluid. You'll be unhappy with the rate at which you crack your brake rotors due to thermal shock.
I have zero brake ducting with my skinny 12" rotors and Porterfield R4 race pads in the stock calipers. I have no problem with these brakes at Buttonwillow Raceway or Auto Club Speedway, except for the constant seizing of the slides, and the limit on pad life due to their small size. They still last a full weekend at either track though.
Except when you vaporize R4-S pads
I guess I've been reading about Vorshlag projects too much recently, like the 3800# S197 Mustang. An extra 1000 lbs over a Fiero will make it a bit harder on brakes.
Also, with ~80 more whp (@$$uming the car has enough cooling capacity to keep that power longer than one lap) in probably a lighter car, he's going to have a lot more speed to shed than your car would on the same track... so he'll be harder on his brakes.
It's not just the HP, he is putting down over 100 LB/FT of TQ more and much lower in the rev band. His car will be carrying significantly higher speeds. That said, I would probably do the brake upgrade and track it first and then add the cooling ducts if needed. I'd make the ducts easily removable though so you can take them off for normal street driving...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 02-23-2015).]
cooling is one thing ive been wondering about...the normal operating temp of my engine is between 190 and 210F highest ive seen it so far is 197. I havnt driven it for a REALLY long period of time, maybe 45 min? She doesnt overheat, but maybe upgrading the rad would do some good now that there's an intercooler infront of it?
I saw Steven's video on how the car was nice and cool driving it hard. What rad was he using??
