When I bought my Fiero the guy insisted there was one on there. I assumed it may have been under the heat shield or something. Unfortunately I didn't know where the cat was supposed to be located to double check at the time, and stupidly I believed him. Lesson learned. Ive went through 75% of the car since I bought it and I now know what kind of people worked on this car in the past. Most of it is now fixed thankfully!
It needs inspection next month, and just so I don't get my old friends fired for passing my car without a cat on there I need to throw one on.
This kit apparently comes with a replacement head pipe included so realistically I can cut it up and weld it together with the cat supplied so this is perfect. That gives me the option to swap the strait pipe back on if I choose to later on!!!
My stupid questions though: $120 seems kinda cheap to me... Is it good quality? Is it a high flow? I don't plan on keeping the 2.6 in the car for much longer, so I don't think I need to go Stainless... I'm going to start building a 3800SC and gathering parts for that swap after I paint the car so longevity isn't much of a concern beyond two or three years realistically.
I am used to catalytic converters costing upwards of $300 with necessary piping and stuff... At least thats how much I remember them costing when pricing out parts back when I was a tech for a living so I am concerned about the quality for the most part.
Thanks guys...
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
I was looking at Rodney's kit and was ready to buy it, but I saw that the Fiero Store's kit comes with a head pipe. I wanted to keep the catless head pipe I have on there now together so I can have the option to go back to a strait pipe in the future.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
I have no technical reason why I would take it back off besides just having the option available... The main reason is I just love how it sounds running a strait pipe. I know it's illegal and horrible for the environment though so odds are it wont come back off once it is installed.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
It's probably an Eastern Catalytic unit, or similar. They are not expensive. I bought a universal one for my Fiero a few years ago for less than $50 but they don't seem to be available anymore.
I wouldn't worry about the quality, personally.
EDIT: just read the posting, its a Walker cat. I've had good experiences with Walker products.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 01-14-2015).]
You might also so look at the Flowmaster universal fit high flow cat at Summit. Just cut your current pipe to install. It's small size makes it easy to get to the starter if needed. As for the sound, it sounds very close to the straight pipe just not as raspy and softens the sound going down the highway, yet still performs the cat job. When or if you decide to go back to a straight pipe just clamp or weld in a straight piece of pipe in place of the cat. The Flowmaster runs $70 w/shipping and is a full stainless cat.
The FS options also work well, either stainless or basic steel pipes, but I believe their cats are more stock oriented as far as exhaust tone.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 01-14-2015).]
Originally posted by KurtAKX: Go ahead; share the "backpressure increases torque" or some other similar fallacy along those lines. I can tell you're itching to.
It's illegal not to have a cat installed on a vehicle registered to drive on public roads, so equipped with one from the factory. The exhaust system was designed with the cat in place. Having it will reduce emissions and slightly improve fuel economy. Removing it does nothing for improving performance or efficiency.
Now I'm not sure what I'm gonna do! Maybe I'll get that high flow one mentioned by Kevin and attach it to a new pipe from the Fiero Store... It may actually be close to the same price or maybe even cheaper to go with the high flow depending on shipping costs...
I'll roll it around in my head for awhile and I'll let you guys know what I end up doing!
It was 14° this morning so all the stuff I have planned is on hold until springtime anyway!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Go ahead; share the "backpressure increases torque" or some other similar fallacy along those lines. I can tell you're itching to.
Was that addressed to me?
If so, I was simply wondering why someone would turn around and remove a cat after going through the trouble and expense of putting one on. Seemed like a reasonable question to me.
I wasn't "itching" to "share" anything. And if I was... is there a problem?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-14-2015).]
This is the one we used on a stock sized down pipe. Its specs allow it to be used on the 2.8L as well as many larger engines. It may be good as well for your swap if you use 2" down pipe. If you think the swap may require a larger down pipe you might go with a 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" in/out Flowmaster, using adapters for the connection to your current 2" pipe. The Flowmaster cats in this line only differ by the in/out pipe diameter, the cat itself is the same size. You can see this looking them over on the Summit site.Tone with stock muffler is slightly smoother than the straight pipe we had prior to install.
MagnaFlow 53004 - MagnaFlow Universal Catalytic Converter Catalytic Converter, Stainless Steel, Universal, 2 in. Inlet/Outlet, 13 in. Length, Each $71.08
Good luck with your rehab project! Don't ever say "cat" around here
edited for correct in/out diameter
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 01-14-2015).]
It's illegal not to have a cat installed on a vehicle registered to drive on public roads, so equipped with one from the factory. The exhaust system was designed with the cat in place. Having it will reduce emissions and slightly improve fuel economy. Removing it does nothing for improving performance or efficiency.
But go ahead and troll.
ADDING A CATALYST DOES NOT IMPROVE FUEL ECONOMY. BACK PRESSURE DOES NOT IMPROVE TORQUE.
Thank you for those specifications! You think I should keep this cat for when I do my swap later on? I didn't look much into how I will do the exhaust yet so i appreciate any ideas!!!
Please guys, don't turn this thread into a flame war. I'm all for a discussion, but can we all act like reasonable adults here?
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Shho13: Thank you for those specifications! You think I should keep this cat for when I do my swap later on? I didn't look much into how I will do the exhaust yet so i appreciate any ideas!!!
I think you should keep the cat. Depending on when you actually do the swap, it may be time to replace it anyway. All cats are not the same, either. OEM cats tend to perform better, but they also cost a lot more money (and aren't avaialble for the Fiero anyway). If you do the normal 3800 swap exhaust, with the headers dumping to the rear, you're going to have a very short exhaust and will want to use a high flow mini cat in it, rather than a standard replacement for the Fiero.
Originally posted by masospaghetti: Didn't another member experiment with a straight pipe compared to a catalyst in a Fiero, and found that the catalyst did actually produce more power?
It was not because of the actual catalyst itself, but because the converter functioned as an expansion chamber.
I don't know if anyone has done proper dyno testing of with and without being the only real changes.
however, yes, the converter isn't a straight pipe. As the exhaust gas expands within it, it slows down, which creates a small increase in pressure between the heads and the converter. Like I said, the car was designed with the cat in place. Simply removing it will affect scavenging and O2 sensor readings. That can lead to lower MPG and lower power output. It also increases emissions quite a bit. Some people like to simplify this and say the increased backpressure increases torque; which is not an entirely true statement, but also not entirely false.
I think you should keep the cat. Depending on when you actually do the swap, it may be time to replace it anyway. All cats are not the same, either. OEM cats tend to perform better, but they also cost a lot more money (and aren't avaialble for the Fiero anyway). If you do the normal 3800 swap exhaust, with the headers dumping to the rear, you're going to have a very short exhaust and will want to use a high flow mini cat in it, rather than a standard replacement for the Fiero.
^What he said. Cat vs. no cat is an oversimplification. CPSI of cats varies anywhere from 100-900, so there is no way to generalize about their physical properties.
If you do some looking around, you probably won't find a lot of Fiero-based data, but there are certainly lots of with vs without Catalyst dyno plots to get an idea of what happens when they're removed, at least anecdotally.
Original link for context Try looking around Corvette, F-body, Mustang, SRT4, etc forums for results. You'll find almost universally that removing the restriction from the exhaust increases power.
[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 01-15-2015).]
I think you should keep the cat. Depending on when you actually do the swap, it may be time to replace it anyway. All cats are not the same, either. OEM cats tend to perform better, but they also cost a lot more money (and aren't avaialble for the Fiero anyway). If you do the normal 3800 swap exhaust, with the headers dumping to the rear, you're going to have a very short exhaust and will want to use a high flow mini cat in it, rather than a standard replacement for the Fiero.
Thanks Dobey! I will definitely be shooting some ideas off when I start getting everything together. I'll start looking up what other guys are doing on their swaps as well! Much appreciated man!
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by KurtAKX: If you do some looking around, you probably won't find a lot of Fiero-based data, but there are certainly lots of with vs without Catalyst dyno plots to get an idea of what happens when they're removed, at least anecdotally.
Try looking around Corvette, F-body, Mustang, SRT4, etc forums for results. You'll find almost universally that removing the restriction from the exhaust increases power.
As I said, not all cats are equal. Also, not all engines are equal. There's a huge difference between modern large displacement V8s or turbo cars running 25PSI of boost, and a tired 30 year old Fiero engine, designed and built during a time when converters were still filled with pellets, and there wasn't enough sensor data or processing power and memory in the ECM, to be able to make active adjustments to changing conditions.
Likewise, removing the cat on a vehicle registered to drive on public roads in the US, which came with one originally, is illegal. You'll find almost universally that it is illegal even at the local level, as well as state and federal levels. But go ahead, and lets all burn the world down faster for that extra 0.1% peak HP number.
Simple fact is new current cat designs does not make much difference in exhaust flow vs exhaust w/ no cat. Old OE cat could make more back pressure then new cats designs.
Entire exhaust system pressure should be < 1.25 PSI measure at O2 Bung at idle. Many are 1 PSI or less, even at 2000-3000 RPM. FSM and many others says 3psi at 2000 RPM is ok
Can change the exhaust sound because give space to expand similar to the muffler.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by dobey: As I said, not all cats are equal. Also, not all engines are equal. There's a huge difference between modern large displacement V8s or turbo cars running 25PSI of boost, and a tired 30 year old Fiero engine, designed and built during a time when converters were still filled with pellets, and there wasn't enough sensor data or processing power and memory in the ECM, to be able to make active adjustments to changing conditions.
There is no difference between 30 year old engine and a new engine in terms of power lost due to backpressure. There are no "magical PCM adjustments" to overcome the laws of thermodynamics. Regardless of the number of valves, cylinders, cams, or turbos, power is a function of the mean effective pressure on the piston on the way down, MINUS the mean effective pressure on the piston on the way up, times how often you're completing the cycle. As you can see below, the higher the pressure is at the end of the stroke (the more backpressure there is at point 6), the less work (work is the yellow shaded area) If you do less work per stroke, then you make less power since power is work per unit time. This is true in everything from Briggs and Stratton flatheads to current F1 cars. Tuned pipes use the inertia of the exiting exhaust gas to pull the pressure down lower at the exhaust valve, thus increasing the shaded area.
quote
Originally posted by dobey: Likewise, removing the cat on a vehicle registered to drive on public roads in the US, which came with one originally, is illegal. You'll find almost universally that it is illegal even at the local level, as well as state and federal levels.
It's not the absence of a cat that's illegal, it's tampering with or altering any emissions control device that's illegal. Since the OP is planning on doing a full 3800SC engine swap, he'll necessarily be altering emissions control systems- so I doubt he really gives a **** about the legality.
Plus, who's to say he's pulling the cat and driving on the road? That's an assumption you made. Perhaps he wants to pull the cat for track day events, such as the track day at New Jersey Motorsports Park on the 20th of March.
Here's a brain teaser- what do you think the cat is doing to pollutant levels when the vehicle is running at WOT?
quote
Originally posted by dobey: But go ahead, and lets all burn the world down faster for that extra 0.1% peak HP number.
That's awfully dramatic for the guy who called me a troll. If he's driving a Fiero on the road, he's already burning down the world. His 25+ year old car WITH catalyst is polluting more than mine would be with the cat removed.
He wants to run with the cat off 4 days a year? Let him. Don't be the moral police. One stupid diesel bro-truck tuned to roll coal will do more damage in one day than he'll be able to. Think about what's happening in China, they're burning coal with loads of sulphur and driving vehicles with astronomical emissions levels, and burning used batteries and electronics to recover the metals- your thread nannying isn't going to offset that.
[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 01-15-2015).]
Since the OP is planning on doing a full 3800SC engine swap, he'll necessarily be altering emissions control systems- so I doubt he really gives a **** about the legality.
Plus, who's to say he's pulling the cat and driving on the road? That's an assumption you made. Perhaps he wants to pull the cat for track day events, such as the track day at New Jersey Motorsports Park on the 20th of March.
So who's actually making the "assumptions" here?
Kurt, you were accusing me of "itching" to "share"... what exactly I'm not sure. I asked the OP a simple question regarding why he would want to install a new cat and then turn around and remove it. He responded and I just left it there. However, looking over all the graphs and data you've since posted, it seems to me you're the one "itching" to push your views.
And I can hardly believe it, but you're now using the health and environmental disaster occurring in China as an excuse to defeat pollution control measures in North America? China's problems are exactly what we don't want here.
What is it about catalytic converters that brings out the pitchforks and venom in these tech threads?
Originally posted by KurtAKX: There is no difference between 30 year old engine and a new engine in terms of power lost due to backpressure. There are no "magical PCM adjustments" to overcome the laws of thermodynamics.
Sure, if you assume 100% efficiency of every engine under all conditions, then they are all exactly the same.
And if we were overcoming the laws of thermodynamics, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because the engine would be making power by turning aerial pollutants into usable kinetic energy to drive the car; and the world would be a much better place.
Since I was brought up in possibly breaking emissions laws by doing my swap I did some searching on engine swap laws in my state. I Found this information on another forum. The guy claims he called NJ DMV and got this as the answer: The thread is from 2008 and since then inspection procedures in NJ have changed.
quote
Ok... So i decided to call the dmv and i found out a few interesting things about NJ state law
1. motor replacements must be of the same model year or newer 2. the motor can't be larger than the motors offered for that model year (she used the example of switching a four cylinder for a six). further, she explained that federal law allows the switching of "light-duty motors" in "light duty vehicles" as long as(quoted exactly form federal law), "the resulting vehicle is identical to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected". 3. cars 1995 and below are not ecu tested only tailpipe emissions tested
So according to this it is legal to perform the 3800SC into a Fiero in NJ as long as it will pass the tailpipe test. I have a pretty solid guess going that an engine that is almost 20 years newer; swapped in to be running OBD2 to control emissions as per the laws required as per the late 90s to early 2000s should pass the 1988 requirements. Please correct me if I am wrong! I wont know until I try and that is still a few years away.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Shho13: So according to this it is legal to perform the 3800SC into a Fiero in NJ as long as it will pass the tailpipe test. I have a pretty solid guess going that an engine that is almost 20 years newer; swapped in to be running OBD2 to control emissions as per the laws required as per the late 90s to early 2000s should pass the 1988 requirements. Please correct me if I am wrong! I wont know until I try and that is still a few years away.
Yes. Most states and localities don't really have laws that directly prevent swaps. Federal regulation though, requires that you can only swap an engine from a newer model in, and that it must meet all the emissions requirements for the newer model engine you swap in. However, almost every state and locality in the country does have a noise ordinance which prohibits the alteration of emissions equipment that would increase the noise level to greater than original equipment.
Kurt, you were accusing me of "itching" to "share"... what exactly I'm not sure. I asked the OP a simple question regarding why he would want to install a new cat and then turn around and remove it. He responded and I just left it there. However, looking over all the graphs and data you've since posted, it seems to me you're the one "itching" to push your views.
And I can hardly believe it, but you're now using the health and environmental disaster occurring in China as an excuse to defeat pollution control measures in North America? China's problems are exactly what we don't want here.
What is it about catalytic converters that brings out the pitchforks and venom in these tech threads?
I "assumed" you were "itching" to "share" your pro-catalyst view, which I have seen here many times before. I clearly assumed wrong (since dobey beat you to it), but in a quick 30-second search I found half a dozen threads where you jumped in to say that running without that cat is a terrible idea, is bad for the environment, is illegal, blah blah blah. In case you think that is not your normal modus operandi, here's just a few to jog your memory... http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/132384.html http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/000624.html http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/132106.html
To be clear, I am not advocating defeating any pollution control on a road-going vehicle. I am not advocating defeating any pollution control because China pollutes.
My point is that you are concerned about this guy's catalyst being installed while we are in the midst of gross polluters. It's like telling this guy he should be trying to bail water out of the Titanic with a thimble as it sinks. It's penny-wise, pound-foolish.
"If you don't run a catalyst on your 30 year old car, you're hurting the environment!" Seriously? Let him be. I don't commute in a super-fancy car, but it is TIER2, BIN5. You can proselytize all you want, but at the end of the day, the average 5 year old car will emit fewer hydrocarbons sitting in a hot parking lot for a month than a Fiero will in one day. If you care about emissions so much, you should be on a crusade to crush all Fieros.
If the only concern is passing tailpipe, I passed the tailpipe emissions test in Houston, TX in 2006 with a 1988 2.8 with no cat installed. I should see if I can find the test report.
In summary, these are hobby cars, which pollute a lot, but they don't get used a lot. Attention and efforts focused in other places will yield better results/more improvement than pissing on the parade of everybody who wants to occasionally run their weekend toy with no catalyst.
Originally posted by KurtAKX: I "assumed" … To be clear, I am not advocating defeating any pollution control on a road-going vehicle.
You assumed, and you clearly didn't even read the original post. Shho13 clearly stated that he is driving it on the road and it needs to pass state inspection.
If he wants to be able to eliminate the cat for a track day on a weekend at some point, then that's fine. The best way to do that is to fix flanges between the downpipe and cat, and after the cat, so that just the cat can be unbolted and replaced with a straight pipe, at the track. It's easy enough to do, and will make swapping the cat out for track day much easier than swapping the entire downpipe.
You jumping in and throwing a bunch of poorly constructed similes around, and proselytizing against having a cat, doesn't change things. Instead of making broad assumptions about what he wants to do, why not try asking a question once in a while to be able to provide better help, rather than attacking the other person who did ask the question?
I "assumed" you were "itching" to "share" your pro-catalyst view, which I have seen here many times before.
My "pro-catalyst view"? Interesting way to describe it.
So... you're critical of me because I encourage members here to retain a legally mandated exhaust component which is both inexpensive and effective in lessening pollution levels exiting our tailpipes?
I realize we can't all agree on everything, but come on...
Kurt, I've always appreciated the knowledge you've generously shared with us here, especially regarding the duke. I've respected what you've had to say, until now. Not that you'll lose any sleep over this, but it disappoints me to discover that you wish to mock those who believe in keeping our air breathable. Making one excuse after another for the elimination of catalytic converters is something I'm genuinely surprised to see you doing.
To be clear, I am not advocating defeating any pollution control on a road-going vehicle. I am not advocating defeating any pollution control because China pollutes. ... the average 5 year old car will emit fewer hydrocarbons sitting in a hot parking lot for a month than a Fiero will in one day. If you care about emissions so much, you should be on a crusade to crush all Fieros. ...
In summary, these are hobby cars, which pollute a lot, but they don't get used a lot....
I don't advocate running without a catalyst. At the same time, it's delusional to act like we're doing the world some environmental favor by bolting on a marginally-effective $100 aftermarket cat onto a car which emits heaps more pollutants than anything reasonably modern.
The OP originally wanted to know if the Fiero store cat was good quality; he wanted to use their kit so as to retain the option to temporarily remove the cat at will. (There are times and places where that is totally acceptable, off-highway).
My point is twofold- one that the question is an oversimplification; two, that most of the "information" presented on this forum is either inaccurate or a generalization so abstracted, as to be useless.
Is the Fierostore cat good? Who knows, it doesn't cost enough to contain sufficient precious metals loading to be as good as an OE unit. Let's try phrasing it another way... Will the Fierostore cat get me to pass emissions? Yes, everywhere but Cali. From yet another angle... Will the Fierostore cat make my car run clean? Define clean- the car is a huge polluter without a cat and it's still a huge polluter with a cat.
If you're driving around in a Fiero thinking your environmental impact is minimized because you have a lowest-common-denominator cat converter installed, you're lying to yourself. They have less precious metal than OE, will not last as long as OE- and even functioning totally correctly as designed by the factory, they're huge polluters compared to anything made in the last decade.
...it's delusional to act like we're doing the world some environmental favor
...the car is a huge polluter without a cat and it's still a huge polluter with a cat.
Delusional or not, the fact remains that a car is less of a polluter with a functioning cat installed... and that's a worthwhile goal (at a minimal cost) to me.
The "cat kit" from the Fiero Store is an excellent buy... it's is inexpensive but ONLY because it's a generic catalytic converter. It's properly sized to the Fiero to give the least amount of restriction while still properly doing it's job as a catalytic converter. The ONLY reason why it's so cheap is because they haven't already welded the catalytic to the header pipe. They basically bought two generic components that when added together, properly match the Fiero.
It is a good deal though. I have that same cat on my car...
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The ONLY reason why it's so cheap is because they haven't already welded the catalytic to the header pipe.
I doubt that's the reason. The "direct fit" Magnaflow converter for my del Sol was $80. When I bought a direct fit walker for the S-10 I used to have about 5 years ago, it was also only about $120. The reason it's a generic weld-in converter is that for it to not be, the exhaust would have to include everything after the Y-pipe. That won't raise the cost on the system itself too much, maybe it would be $200 instead of $100, but shipping for that monstrosity would be ridiculous.
It's a weld-in kit because that's how the Fiero exhaust is designed; not necessarily as a method to reduce cost. KurtAKX is right about the precious metals. Look at the cost of any cheap aftermarket cat like this, and then go to even the cheapest OEM GM parts site and look at the cost for a converter for a new Silverado or Corvette. The price difference there isn't just due to OEM premium.
I doubt that's the reason. The "direct fit" Magnaflow converter for my del Sol was $80. When I bought a direct fit walker for the S-10 I used to have about 5 years ago, it was also only about $120. The reason it's a generic weld-in converter is that for it to not be, the exhaust would have to include everything after the Y-pipe. That won't raise the cost on the system itself too much, maybe it would be $200 instead of $100, but shipping for that monstrosity would be ridiculous.
It's a weld-in kit because that's how the Fiero exhaust is designed; not necessarily as a method to reduce cost. KurtAKX is right about the precious metals. Look at the cost of any cheap aftermarket cat like this, and then go to even the cheapest OEM GM parts site and look at the cost for a converter for a new Silverado or Corvette. The price difference there isn't just due to OEM premium.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. The catalytic converter "kit" from the Fiero is basically a bunch of components that are pieced together, but weren't ever initially made specifically for the Fiero as replacements. They are cheap stuff. The Magnaflow "Direct-Fit" stuff can sometimes be cheap, and sometimes be expensive totally depending on supply / demand. Try getting a set for the Crown Victoria 98-02, and you'll pay easily $400 each side.
As far as the cat "kit" the Fiero store sells... it's NOT welded. It needs to be, and you're supposed to, but it doesn't come pre-welded. You literally get a pipe with a flange on it that's bent about a half-foot down, and then... a catalytic converter. YOU have to do the cutting, the welding, etc.
Yes, it's not stainless steel, and yes the pipe isn't mandrel bent. But that's why it's cheap...
China's problems are exactly what we don't want here.
