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rear hub wheel bearings? by fierogt28
Started on: 01-13-2015 10:31 PM
Replies: 15 (975 views)
Last post by: Kevin87FieroGT on 01-16-2015 01:11 PM
fierogt28
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Report this Post01-13-2015 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogt28Click Here to Email fierogt28Send a Private Message to fierogt28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There seems to be a big debate on rear hub wheel bearing replacements.

What I am hearing is the original GM bearings are the best. Why aren't replacements like SKF or Timken recommended.
Those two are the top manafactures of bearings in the US, and made in the US. Timken are specialized in cone / tapered beaings.

Any cheap bearing on e-bay should be avoided. Buying from and authorized dealer is a must.

Anyone have detailed / visual proof that the rear original bearings are tapered, or ball bearing design?? There is
a 1st tightening spec at 74 ft. lbs, and final torque specs with the load on the wheel @ 200 ft / lbs.

My opinion would be buying a quality brand and quit avoiding cheap bearings for rear hub replacements. And staying away from
e-bay deals ard rock bottom prices from discount car part chains.

Anyone have a point??

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fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. Beechwood interior, All original.

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Patrick
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Report this Post01-13-2015 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierogt28:

Why aren't replacements like SKF or Timken recommended.
Those two are the top manafactures of bearings in the US, and made in the US.


Are you positive that's still the case, or are they being made offshore like almost everything else these days?
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theogre
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Report this Post01-14-2015 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes Timken and SKF makes bearings...
The Q is does Timken really Make the hub themselves and/or uses US make Timken bearings to make them?

If anyone have a recent bough but dead SKF or Timken and can take it apart... bearings itself are often marked w/ bearings maker and Part #.

Again... Companies can say Made in the US but some % of parts can come from anyplace.
My dead hub says Made in the US and still have bearing problems.
The dead unit was bought 15 years ago and was not discount item. It died in a few months. I saved it to show etc.

Many places stopped keeping them from any brand in inventory because the part only fits cars in 80s.
code:
BUICK	CENTURY	(1982 - 1989)
BUICK SKYLARK (1980 - 1985)
CHEVROL CELEBRITY (1982 - 1989)
CHEVROL CITATION (1980 - 1983)
CHEVROL CITATION II (1984 - 1985)
OLDSMOB CUTLASS CIERA (1982 - 1989)
OLDSMOB OMEGA (1980 - 1984)
PONTIAC 6000 (1982 - 1989)
PONTIAC FIERO (1984 - 1988)
PONTIAC PHOENIX (1980 - 1984)

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wftb
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Report this Post01-14-2015 07:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 2011 Ford Focus had both front wheel bearings fail at 98000 KM , just barely under warranty still .From talking to people at work , this is now fairly common .I am pretty sure all auto wheel bearings are made in China now .SKF used to have a plant in Scarborough Ontario near where I grew up .Not there now .I think the biggest problem with China bearings is that the steel is made with a high scrap content .Too many impurities .
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theogre
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Report this Post01-14-2015 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bearing type See http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127848.html
Other threads cover this too.

Sadly, Made in the US often does not = a good product. You can find real crap and still be Made in US.
Hubs are likely made by lowest bidder then sold by whatever brand. You're often just paying for Name and Warranty.
A part can be the same for X and Y brands but X gives 3 years and Y gives 1 year warranty. A 3 year warranty cost more then 90 days or 1 year because the vendor expects more failures under warranty. That failure allowance is past off as higher price for the product.
Is like Harbor Freight, Best Buy, etc, selling you extra warranty. Best Buy just give you a choice to pay or not.

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:
My 2011 Ford Focus had both front wheel bearings fail at 98000 KM , just barely under warranty still .From talking to people at work , this is now fairly common .I am pretty sure all auto wheel bearings are made in China now .SKF used to have a plant in Scarborough Ontario near where I grew up .Not there now .I think the biggest problem with China bearings is that the steel is made with a high scrap content .Too many impurities .

Maybe or not...
I think the Main problem is not setting clearance or poor lube.
See http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/127848.html#p25
This type of damage done when you preload the bearing wrong, wrong lube or lack of lube.
You don't need much grease but you do need enough and right kind for your application.
Have preload at all on bearing don't get any is death. If the design use preload, too much or not enough is death too. My guess is they don't get any preload same as OE BB hubs.
This means if spacer(s) or races in the assembly are a tiny bit off then the bearing can get preload and wear out fast.

And That's in normal driving... autox etc means bearings get more heat from brakes plus high load on the bearings from sticky tires etc can kill them fast.
No one will warranty parts use for racing or even from commercial vehicles most times.
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Kevin87FieroGT
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Report this Post01-14-2015 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
[B]Originally posted by fierogt28:[/B
There is
a 1st tightening spec at 74 ft. lbs, and final torque specs with the load on the wheel @ 200 ft / lbs.

My opinion would be buying a quality brand and quit avoiding cheap bearings for rear hub replacements. And staying away from
e-bay deals ard rock bottom prices from discount car part chains.



Yep, buy from a quality parts house to be sure you get actual Timken,Moog or SKF bearings. Rock Auto, Summit, O'Riellys, Advance Auto and many others have the parts. A lifetime warranty, return policy, on the parts would be nice. Those are probably your best choices these days. Really, if you want purely "Made In the Good Old USA" parts, good luck, especially hub bearings for Fieros.

Yes, for the rear torque to 74#, put the car on the ground and finish with torque to 200#. You can't beat success with this one. Some of those that don't torque to the 200# have had issues. Get a torque wrench that will easily go to 200# at your local parts store rental program. Just follow the service manual procedures or search PFF for great advice on the install.

10,000 miles of spirited driving on our '86SE with Moog hubs, no issues. They most likely are made outside the U.S. Funny, there was no point of manufacture labeling on the box or hubs, can only guess where they were made.

[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 01-14-2015).]

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fierogt28
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Report this Post01-14-2015 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogt28Click Here to Email fierogt28Send a Private Message to fierogt28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I guess what we want / need to know is how the original rear bearing is made? (ball bearing, or tapered)

Technically, I agree to the installation procedure is a must and has to be respected. Either too tight (over torqued),
or too loose can ruin the bearing and reduce life totally.

If some rear bearings are made with tapered bearings and some are ball bearing, we have 2 different designs.

This would be valuable information if anyone has detailed pics.

Are bearings for the rear still available from GM?? A GM part number would be helpful.
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fierogt28
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Report this Post01-14-2015 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogt28Click Here to Email fierogt28Send a Private Message to fierogt28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fierogt28

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Member since Feb 2005
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Are you positive that's still the case, or are they being made offshore like almost everything else these days?


I hope...because we are being royally screwed. I guess getting our hand on new old stock is our best option. (Original and aftermarket)
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Report this Post01-14-2015 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
The Q is does Timken really Make the hub themselves and/or uses US make Timken bearings to make them?


Timken, like most everyone else now, also have plants in China. Actual Timken plants that is, not outsourced to plants that use alloys with too many soft metals in the steel. The parts are made to the same quality assurance standards in those Timken plants, as the ones over here.
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Report this Post01-14-2015 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We have had good results with NAPA Performer and WBI rear hubs.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 01-14-2015).]

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theogre
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Report this Post01-15-2015 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Torque values...
Ever read FSM etc? I have.
FSM, GM TSB, Alldata, etc, has different methods/values...

Haynes #79008 page 188
New 200 ft/lb
Used 70 ft/lb
Only Haynes list torque for a used nut. I won't or recommend using a old nut.

87 FSM © 1986 GM Corp. 11-86 Litho in USA (Mean Printed in 11/86)
Axle nut is in two sections...
Page 4D-2, Step 7 in Install list... install washer and new hub nut and tighten to 250-285 Nm (183-208 lb.ft.).
Page 3D-4, install New nut on axle... uses the two step method. partial torque to 74ft/lb. car w/ wheel on and on the ground, final 200 ft/lb.

Alldata publishes GM TSB... If you look at alldata for Fiero hub nut torque you get: (I had an old disk copy of Alldata.)
(TSB # ATRATB294, Jan 1995)
TECHNICAL BULLETIN # 294
DATE: 1995
TRANSMISSION: General
SUBJECT: Axle and lug nut
APPLICATION: Service information
AXLE AND LUG NUT SERVICE INFORMATION
It is critical to tighten the axle and lug nuts to factory specifications.
WARNING If the factory tightening specifications are not followed, bearing life will be shortened or mechanical loads will not be spread evenly.
^ Install axle(s) and wheel(s).
^ Install nuts and hand tighten. {Hand Tight? Good luck w/ Fiero hub nut.}
^ Lower vehicle until wheels begin to touch the ground.
^ Using figures one and two, tighten nuts to specifications illustrated in the following tables.

The TSB cover many cars... Most 84-94 Pontiac including Fiero gets 185-192 ft/lb for axle nut. 100 ft/lb for lugs.

New hub/axle nut need a wrench just because nut's locking crimp. Is likely why the two step uses 74ft/lb.
Spec value is for Clean and Dry threads. If you have crap or lube on the threads then torquing to spec is dangerous. Any Lube, including Anti-seize, on the threads then you over torque and can cause hub or axle to fail.
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Report this Post01-15-2015 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At the moment, there's a clearance sale on Fiero parts, including hubs, at Rock Auto. They have the Moog rear hub assemblies that many of us bought early in 2014. See my thread in General Fiero Chat for links.
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Report this Post01-16-2015 12:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have torn down cleaned, re-greased & resealed 4 sets of Original rear bearings, they were ALL Ball Bearing. In my opinion, the originals are far better than anything you can buy today. (any doubt in anyone's mind that ANY "aftermarket" bearing will still be OK in 25 years and 150K miles ?)
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Kevin87FieroGT
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Report this Post01-16-2015 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One of my OEM hubs gave out at 36,000 mi.. Not so sure that after 28 years of moisture, wear and tear and what not that the stock hubs were all that great either. Sure there are those that might have gone 250,000 mi, but some did not. It would be interesting to see the GM warranty claims info on the Celebrity, Pontiac 6000 and Fiero hubs. Hey, it was the 80's at GM and the push to cut cost was severe.

Certainly would be a good idea to pull those OEM hubs for cleaning and regressing if you want to keep them.
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theogre
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Report this Post01-16-2015 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Kevin87FieroGT:
One of my OEM hubs gave out at 36,000 mi.. Not so sure that after 28 years of moisture, wear and tear and what not that the stock hubs were all that great either. Sure there are those that might have gone 250,000 mi, but some did not. It would be interesting to see the GM warranty claims info on the Celebrity, Pontiac 6000 and Fiero hubs. Hey, it was the 80's at GM and the push to cut cost was severe.

Certainly would be a good idea to pull those OEM hubs for cleaning and regressing if you want to keep them.
I think Most/all GM cars and light trucks had 12 months/12000 miles warranty so likely only a few vs total # of vehicles. Many cars warranty was and is voided for racing and often commercial uses.

Years of moisture could be a problem. Just Driving thru high "water" once can force water inside bearings seals and brake parts. These parts are often water resistance, not water proof. Same thing as Weather Pack etc electrical parts. "Water" because is Water and every type of pollution, salt, etc. You see warning don't drive thru high water roads for driver safety but even when you can do it safe for you, the car is often very unhappy and can bite you over time.

Rear hubs, aftermarket and OEM, are better at sealing out water.
84-87 Front wheel seal and bearing cap easily get water inside.
Rear Caliper can let water inside the piston set. The Yellow "valve" really hates high water driving. "Recall" pistons are a bit better IF the piston boot is good. (GM moved the vent hole for recall kit.)

Greasing been covered... (try search in TD&Q archive.) Problem is making sure grease is good for the application. Guessing and get Wrong kind is often a very quick death to them. Worse, If the grease separates (Many do) and the oil part leaks out then could cause brake problems.
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Kevin87FieroGT
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Report this Post01-16-2015 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Kevin87FieroGTSend a Private Message to Kevin87FieroGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You are correct about the 12,000 warranty, my mistake. To be correct about the life of the rear bearing hubs I should have said service records, not warranty records. Thanks.

Moisture, or water invasion, and corroding of the bearing race and other areas can also happen via condensation during temperature exchanges in particular in areas where little grease has been applied to give a protective film. 28 years, in our case, of the car sitting around driving litte, being in a northern climate, and who knows how stored may have contributed to the hub failure. Yes, puddles too. The bearings when removed showed corrosion on the interior surfaces, Both sides of the car showed this. In the end I have to figure the seals were weak, or a lack of grease during manufacture. As for the ball or roller bearing construction issue, in our car, i don't think it really mattered. I have no doubt others have had this same with their hubs. Also like you say the lack of grease, or wrong grease, or hard driving may also lead to shortened life, moisture or not.

Ogre I always appreciate you're observations and perspective. Thanks, your a valuable resource here.
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