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Good Times with Four Cylinders - 2.4 Twin Cam swap by Carcenomy
Started on: 01-07-2015 12:10 AM
Replies: 25 (1046 views)
Last post by: sardonyx247 on 03-12-2015 02:29 AM
Carcenomy
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Report this Post01-07-2015 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay so this is going to be a looooong project, but I figured I'd ask some questions from those with much more knowledge than I before I get too invested in it.

The donor car is my 1986 T-top base coupe. At the moment it has a Duke with some extremely mild mods, which is a perfectly healthy little powerplant, but not exactly what anyone is going to describe as powerful.

Being located where I am, access to other appropriate engines is extremely difficult. Yes, there's 3800s around in the Holden Commodore - I had an LN3 3800 in my old '84 and it was a riot. But everyone's done the 3800 to death since then and to be frank, I still want it to be something a little more uncommon so it doesn't get shunned if I'm ever silly enough to take it to a car show... I always got sneers with the old LN3. "Ewww it's just a Commodore V6" etc.

The one car I do have reasonably easy access to here is the Toyota Cavalier. The models we see are all standard third-generation Cavaliers, so they all feature the LD9 2.4 Twin Cam. I've managed to find a guy dismantling a 2000 Cavalier 2.4Z and picked up its' LD9 for quite cheap.

So the hard facts - it's a Duke car with an Isuzu 5-speed. The donor engine is the 2.4 Twin Cam. I do not have a transmission for the 2.4 as basically every Cavalier here is fitted with the 4T40-E.

My early question is the transmission. I've heard many times that the Cavalier's Isuzu is a pile of garbage. I've also heard the same about the Fiero Isuzu too, although for the type of driving I do, it seems to be pretty acceptable. Do I really need to be looking for a Getrag, or should I go for the Isuzu and hope that there's enough similarity between the Cavalier/Quad4 Isuzu and the Fiero/Duke Isuzu to reuse some parts like the axles and shift cables? It's going to add a huge amount of money to the swap if I need to move to the Getrag.

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Report this Post01-07-2015 02:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Click Here to Email mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, its funny you posted this... I have been doing a lot of research on the quad 4 swap.. which is what the cavalier has i think... and I noticed if the cav was a manual it came with a getrag, I've read that the getrag that the cav came with is the same tranny internally as the fiero getrag. I read the the only difference is the bell housing. So heres my question, can you get the correct bellhousing from the 4t60 and adapt it to work on the isuzu? I don't know. You may have to get a getrag, and in that case a shifter, select, and shift cables. I think all the manual trans axles are interchangeable but don't quote me on that.

On another note, I just happened to stumble across your thread where you bought the 86 t top and its a cool story, good luck with whatever you do!

-Mitch

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Carcenomy
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Report this Post01-07-2015 03:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Mitch!

Yeah the 2.4 Twin Cam was the last hurrah for the Quad 4, it's essentially a debored, stroked Quad 4... a little more torque, a little less power. From what I've read about the third generation Cavalier ('96-'02) the earlier models ('96-'99) have an Isuzu box of some flavour, the later ('00-'02) were Getrag. Everything with a real Quad 4 appears to have a real Getrag.

Just hoping that the horror stories about the Isuzu in the Cavaliers is scaremongery... if I had to replace axles, shifter, cables etc etc... I'd be basically screwed by shipping
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Report this Post01-07-2015 07:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilClick Here to Email no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While parts shopping for our auto to manual swap, I don't recall searching for Isuzu specific trans-axels.

Hopefully somewhat helpfull.
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Report this Post01-07-2015 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the isuzu tranny in your fiero is still working fine , I would just continue to use it .Saves a lot of work .There are a lot of Q4 swaps here on the forum for reference .I don't know if the Quad uses the fiero bolt pattern or if you need an adaptor plate .
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Report this Post01-07-2015 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've read at least one forum member commenting here on his success of using an Isuzu with his V8 swap.

Sure, he admits he doesn't pound on it, but I would think the Isuzu should also be fine for a 2.4 Twin Cam swap... although perhaps not for track use.
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Report this Post01-07-2015 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Doesn't the Quad 4 use a different bell pattern than the standard metric pattern used in the Fiero?

You'd need an adapter plate to use the Fiero trans, or will need to find a trans that came behind a quad 4, to avoid using an adapter plate. I thought the Quad4 cars all came with a Getrag F23 trans for the manuals, though. I didn't know any came with the Isuzu.

If you can find an F23 for the LD9 Cavalier, I would go that route instead. The F23 is one of the stronger transmissions, and it's what came mated to the 2.4L Q4 Cavalier in the US at least. I'm pretty sure the AU/NZ Cavalier should have had the same trans standard.
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Report this Post01-08-2015 07:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Doesn't the Quad 4 use a different bell pattern than the standard metric pattern used in the Fiero?

You'd need an adapter plate to use the Fiero trans, or will need to find a trans that came behind a quad 4, to avoid using an adapter plate. I thought the Quad4 cars all came with a Getrag F23 trans for the manuals, though. I didn't know any came with the Isuzu.

If you can find an F23 for the LD9 Cavalier, I would go that route instead. The F23 is one of the stronger transmissions, and it's what came mated to the 2.4L Q4 Cavalier in the US at least. I'm pretty sure the AU/NZ Cavalier should have had the same trans standard.

We only ever got the Cavalier as a JDM import, and boy oh boy do the Japanese guys love their automatics. Unfortunately that means whatever transaxle I end up using, it's going to have to be crated up and sent over from the US. If I went the F23 it'd be like doing a Getrag swap and an engine swap in one - I'm not adverse to the idea, but that means shifter cables, axles and adapting the cables on top of everything else. It might just have to be the way though!
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Report this Post01-08-2015 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:
We only ever got the Cavalier as a JDM import, and boy oh boy do the Japanese guys love their automatics. Unfortunately that means whatever transaxle I end up using, it's going to have to be crated up and sent over from the US. If I went the F23 it'd be like doing a Getrag swap and an engine swap in one - I'm not adverse to the idea, but that means shifter cables, axles and adapting the cables on top of everything else. It might just have to be the way though!


The automatic thing isn't really the impression I get from the Japanese car scene. But it's also a US car, so having the stigma of automatics that the US has, most of the Cavaliers that ended up over there might be automatic. I've been occasionally looking at getting another Fiero that is drivable (as my current car isn't), and you wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a manual car.

Good luck finding one locally. It would be your best bet if you can find one, I think. If not, you'll have to build an adapter plate I think, and use the Fiero trans. You should be OK power wise on the Fiero Isuzu trans. I don't know if youl'll enjoy the gearing with the quad 4 though. One of the local club members here had a 3.4 DOHC with the Isuzu trans, before swapping to an LS3/Getrag, now running an F40, and I recall him saying the gearing of the Isuzu box made it a bit annoying to drive the 3.4 DOHC in mid range gearing. Not sure what tires you have and what RPM you'd be running at in top gear, but might be at a point where exhaust noise is a bit much. It's worth considering at least.
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Report this Post01-08-2015 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The automatic thing isn't really the impression I get from the Japanese car scene. But it's also a US car, so having the stigma of automatics that the US has, most of the Cavaliers that ended up over there might be automatic. I've been occasionally looking at getting another Fiero that is drivable (as my current car isn't), and you wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a manual car.

The car scene love manuals, that's true - but at least with the Japanese kit we see here, it's not all the nice stuff that an enthusiast would like, it's all the rest too - for example, let's say NB Miata/MX5/Eunos Roadster. For every 1800cc 6-speed car you find here, there's a dozen 1600cc automatics. I can't think of anything more offensive to the senses! The Cavalier though was especially hard hit - I didn't know that there was any with a manual transaxle until I started looking at the USDM models. I'll start shopping around just in case there was the odd one that did slip through though, after all TRD did lark about with the Cavalier a wee bit while it was available in Japan.

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Good luck finding one locally. It would be your best bet if you can find one, I think. If not, you'll have to build an adapter plate I think, and use the Fiero trans. You should be OK power wise on the Fiero Isuzu trans. I don't know if youl'll enjoy the gearing with the quad 4 though. One of the local club members here had a 3.4 DOHC with the Isuzu trans, before swapping to an LS3/Getrag, now running an F40, and I recall him saying the gearing of the Isuzu box made it a bit annoying to drive the 3.4 DOHC in mid range gearing. Not sure what tires you have and what RPM you'd be running at in top gear, but might be at a point where exhaust noise is a bit much. It's worth considering at least.

Absolutely. It's the eternal question though... spend the money to get the right part initially, or spend slightly less money and more of my time fabricating adapters to do it not quite right... I do have an MY8 Muncie kicking around in my spares too, but I'm pretty sure that'd end up worse.
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Report this Post01-10-2015 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was considering doing a 2.4 / LD9 swap in a Fiero, and I think it's an excellent choice. The motor is basically a Quad-4, but... it's smoother. The LD9 is actually a very smooth motor compared to other 4 cyls. It pulls very nicely in the upper RPMs as well. For the life of me, I can't remember what the power is. I don't think it was hugely spectacular, but with decent gearing, it would pull well into the upper rpms.

They also offered a "FACTORY" supercharger from GM Performance Parts that was dealer installed (for the Cavalier and Sunfire).

For what it's worth, they sell a Getrag, JUST like the Fieros, but with the LD9 bolt pattern. You can basically just buy one of the TwinCam Getrags, and it'll bolt right up to your TwinCam.

Also, look up something called the "Secret Cam Swap." Totally gay sounding if you ask me (not sure how that name took)... but it involves swapping cams from various older years of Quad-4 motors. One from a 95, and one from a 94, and you basically end up with like 180hp and 180ft-lbs of torque or something crazy.

What's better, if you can find a 1995 ECM for the Quad-4, it will power the TwinCam with NO problems... meaning that you don't have to go through the effort of converting to OBD-2.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEcJE9M4crg

http://www.j-body.org/forum...=2&i=475699&t=475699

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Report this Post01-10-2015 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:
The car scene love manuals, that's true - but at least with the Japanese kit we see here, it's not all the nice stuff that an enthusiast would like, it's all the rest too - for example, let's say NB Miata/MX5/Eunos Roadster. For every 1800cc 6-speed car you find here, there's a dozen 1600cc automatics. I can't think of anything more offensive to the senses! The Cavalier though was especially hard hit - I didn't know that there was any with a manual transaxle until I started looking at the USDM models. I'll start shopping around just in case there was the odd one that did slip through though, after all TRD did lark about with the Cavalier a wee bit while it was available in Japan.


Well, Japan is a pretty small set of islands. They have to send all the junk parts that nobody in Japan wants, somewhere.
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Report this Post01-11-2015 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if you do find an F23 that was in a cavalier , you can just use fiero manual transmission axles .
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Report this Post01-11-2015 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
here's another completed quad 4 swap (aren't the quad 4 and twin cam the same thing?)

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/123416.html

though it might be helpful.

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http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Carcenomy
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Report this Post01-12-2015 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just to clarify - the car is already packing an Isuzu 5-speed. Every other manual Fiero I've seen in this country is either also an Isuzu 5-speed or a Muncie, unless heaven forbid it has a TH125. Getrags are like the peanuts in rocking horse poo here. So if I did go Getrag I'm going to need to get ALL of the Getrag parts imported including the axles, shift cables, mounts... the whole lot. My wallet is cringing at the freight bill already

My thoughts were if I went with the 96-99 LD9 Isuzu, it shouldn't be too far removed from the Fiero's Isuzu and will cut down the number of hard parts required - allegedly from what I've heard, you can literally just flip the Isuzu's select linkage 180 degrees for a Fiero application. I could be horribly wrong but I don't know anyone fluent in late 90s Cavalier to tell me

Dobey, the emissions laws are the thing that's heartbreaking. You don't want to know how many legitimately tidy cars that are considered desirable have ended up here but can't be road registered as a result. Swathes of FD RX7s and R34s and stuff... just too old to pass the draconian date cutoff. Means lots of interesting cars for parts or racetrack only though.
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Report this Post01-12-2015 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
fiero isuzu axles = fiero getrag axles .They are all the same , you do not have to buy axles .I have an ecotec 2.2 L61 swapped fiero with the F23 that came out of an 04 cavalier .It uses the stock fiero axles that came with my car .And my car was originally a 4 speed muncie .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-12-2015).]

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Report this Post01-12-2015 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

Just to clarify - the car is already packing an Isuzu 5-speed. Every other manual Fiero I've seen in this country is either also an Isuzu 5-speed or a Muncie, unless heaven forbid it has a TH125. Getrags are like the peanuts in rocking horse poo here. So if I did go Getrag I'm going to need to get ALL of the Getrag parts imported including the axles, shift cables, mounts... the whole lot. My wallet is cringing at the freight bill already

My thoughts were if I went with the 96-99 LD9 Isuzu, it shouldn't be too far removed from the Fiero's Isuzu and will cut down the number of hard parts required - allegedly from what I've heard, you can literally just flip the Isuzu's select linkage 180 degrees for a Fiero application. I could be horribly wrong but I don't know anyone fluent in late 90s Cavalier to tell me

Dobey, the emissions laws are the thing that's heartbreaking. You don't want to know how many legitimately tidy cars that are considered desirable have ended up here but can't be road registered as a result. Swathes of FD RX7s and R34s and stuff... just too old to pass the draconian date cutoff. Means lots of interesting cars for parts or racetrack only though.


Yeah. I watch Mighty Car Mods sometimes, and they always go on about some of the silly laws in AU.

As for the Getrag, if you're really thinking about importing one, don't even bother with the Fiero 282 Getrag. Get a trans that was made for the LD9/Quad4. If you just want to get on with it and get it done and running "cheap" for now, then just make an adapter plate and use the trans you have in the car. It should be fine unless you turbo it and start making lots of torque or something.
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Report this Post01-13-2015 04:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Yeah. I watch Mighty Car Mods sometimes, and they always go on about some of the silly laws in AU.

As for the Getrag, if you're really thinking about importing one, don't even bother with the Fiero 282 Getrag. Get a trans that was made for the LD9/Quad4. If you just want to get on with it and get it done and running "cheap" for now, then just make an adapter plate and use the trans you have in the car. It should be fine unless you turbo it and start making lots of torque or something.


Ah-hah, see now I learned something - I didn't realize the axles were the same irrespective of the manual transaxle already in the Fiero. In that case, I might as well find a nice Quad 4 Getrag. Thanks wftb!

Yeah NZ isn't so bad with the silly laws, it's mostly Green party initiated emissions nonsense, but the Australians? Change your exhaust, get a fine. It's absurd.
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Report this Post03-09-2015 01:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well bollocks - looks like the chap ended up taking the LD9 to the scrap metal dealer as I hadn't managed to get it shipped down quick enough. I guess I'll just have to persevere with the Duke a little longer. Thanks for all the suggestions anyway guys!
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Report this Post03-09-2015 06:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

Well bollocks - looks like the chap ended up taking the LD9 to the scrap metal dealer as I hadn't managed to get it shipped down quick enough. I guess I'll just have to persevere with the Duke a little longer. Thanks for all the suggestions anyway guys!


Bummer but that's okay, I have an 85 Duke 5 speed and its loads of fun to drive at legal speeds.
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Report this Post03-09-2015 07:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To answer some posts,
the F23 came behind the 2.2L not the 2.4l
and if you are going quad 4, go High Output/W41 or don't waste your time, AND you want the quad Getrag and it has the best spider gears in any 282 Getrag.
Also yes the duke/V6 axles are the same length but not the same thickness. (could be a year thing, but there are bigger and smaller axles)
The 2.4l is way detuned, as people (read pu**ies), complained about the vibration and noise. The high output never came in an auto as it was a "drivers engine", and just sucked behind an auto.

That all being said, the Quad 4 is what the 4cyl Fiero should have had in it, too bad it came after the Fiero demise.
It is just too much fun to drive, avg down low rpm, but when needed it pulls and pulls and pulls and pulls, untill the 7400 rev limit.


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Report this Post03-11-2015 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

To answer some posts,
the F23 came behind the 2.2L not the 2.4l
and if you are going quad 4, go High Output/W41 or don't waste your time, AND you want the quad Getrag and it has the best spider gears in any 282 Getrag.
Also yes the duke/V6 axles are the same length but not the same thickness. (could be a year thing, but there are bigger and smaller axles)
The 2.4l is way detuned, as people (read pu**ies), complained about the vibration and noise. The high output never came in an auto as it was a "drivers engine", and just sucked behind an auto.

That all being said, the Quad 4 is what the 4cyl Fiero should have had in it, too bad it came after the Fiero demise.
It is just too much fun to drive, avg down low rpm, but when needed it pulls and pulls and pulls and pulls, untill the 7400 rev limit.


I'd love to go full blown W41 Quad 4 but parts availability would be problematic at best. The reason I was looking at an LD9 in the first place is that they're exceptionally common here - all those JDM Cavaliers ended up here, so we're swimming in LD9s but it appears basically every one of the JDM Cavaliers was fitted with the 4T40E.

Still, I've read that with some effort while building the 2.4 can be made to make reasonable power... I guess I'm back to the drawing board for now though until I find another one to look at.
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Report this Post03-11-2015 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
a 2.4 can be built up a bit but trying to find the 95 cams is getting harder(the secret cam swap)
I can't even find a HO in the yards here and usally there is everything here.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-11-2015).]

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Report this Post03-11-2015 09:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had a 99 Cavalier Z24 with the 2.4 and it was faster than my Brothers Grand am with a 3400, both automatics.
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Report this Post03-12-2015 01:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

a 2.4 can be built up a bit but trying to find the 95 cams is getting harder(the secret cam swap)
I can't even find a HO in the yards here and usally there is everything here.



Hmmmmm... the secret cam swap, I've been curious about that. I've read lots about it needing to be '95 cams, not earlier... but the reason I heard was something to do with the power steering pump drive on the end of the cam. Given that's not overly relevant to the Fiero application, would the earlier cam be feasible instead?
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sardonyx247
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From: Nevada, USA
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Report this Post03-12-2015 02:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it is someing on how it fits into the cam covers. I forget the exact details.
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