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Front and rear wheel bearings - autocross recommendations by masospaghetti
Started on: 01-06-2015 08:28 AM
Replies: 10 (455 views)
Last post by: mcguiver3 on 01-07-2015 07:29 PM
masospaghetti
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Report this Post01-06-2015 08:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ran my car at the CCR-SCCA autocross a couple times in 2014 and have been reading about wheel hub bearing problems the Fiero has.

I was running with regular all-season tires so the amount of grip was relatively low. However, I was planning on getting some actual sticky tires, probably 225/50-15, fitted on stock rims.

Any recommendations about what kind of wheel bearings I should use that will hold up the best?

I have Timken hubs in the rear and SKF bearings in the front.

86 GT. Thanks all.
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f85gtron
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Report this Post01-06-2015 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for f85gtronSend a Private Message to f85gtronEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Watching........
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post01-07-2015 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Some research yielded a rep from eBearings (who makes 88 front bearing assemblies) stating the following, from this thread:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...14-2-108566.html#p34

 
quote
The problem isn't so much the hub assembly itself, but its engineering era. The Fiero's rear hubs (513011) and entire rear suspension were engineered back in the late 1970's -- long, long before anyone at GM knew what they were doing. Even then, the X chassis stuff was engineered and produced to a strict budget. Design parameters revolved around the tires and suspension loading of the day, 165/15 to 175 tires, and so on and so on. Suspension geometry, knuckle designs, spring rates, squat, brake dive, brake proportioning, you name it ... 99% of it was a shot in the dark. Oh, and GM had never before designed or built a "cartridge" bearing or what we now call a hub assembly. Unless you count the Corvair, which would be a bad idea.

Anyway, those first few generations of GM FWD chassis and hub assemblies (particularly the 513011, which is a design and engineering abomination, I tell you) had failure rates so high that they single-handedly launched an entirely new segment of the U.S. bearing industry ... and our company was the first to engineer and produce aftermarket versions.


Personally, everything that eBearings posted in that thread appears to be technically sound.

My question is: Why is the Fiero rear hub such a "design and engineering abomination"? It appears to be just like all other hub assemblies that other manufacturers use.
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dobey
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Report this Post01-07-2015 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At least for the 88, there is this thread on RFT which is relevant: http://realfierotech.com/ph...f=3&t=17957&start=40

StevenSnyder seems to have done quite a bit of research in this matter, as he races his car.
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olejoedad
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Report this Post01-07-2015 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Front and rear bearings for pre-88's are readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Buy what you can afford (with a warranty, i.e. A/Z etc) and replace them when they fail.
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dobey
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Report this Post01-07-2015 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Front and rear bearings for pre-88's are readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Buy what you can afford (with a warranty, i.e. A/Z etc) and replace them when they fail.


Right. But I think they are not built to handle constant hard cornering like one might see in AutoX racing. From what I gather in various threads, some bearings have failed after a single lap on the track. With grippy tires, it will be even harder on the bearings in hard cornering. I don't think masospaghetti wants to replace bearings every week. I sure wouldn't want to.
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post01-07-2015 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's for sure. I also have been driving my Fiero to the events (I don't have a trailer) so I wouldn't want to blow up a bearing and have to get it towed home.
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theogre
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Report this Post01-07-2015 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What's good on one car often doesn't mean much because next guy is more aggressive, tires stick more, etc.

Sorry but If you can't trailer/tow then carry tools and parts to replace dead hubs etc.
No warranty covers Racing and most don't cover commercial vehicles.
Like GM made Fiero Cheap... Most parts venders make parts as cheap as possible. Many times aftermarket hubs can fail in normal driving. I have one that died in a few months driving to work. (I save it to see why... http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/127848.html#p21 )

Most/all Aftermarket rear use taper roller bearings.... OE is ball bearings.
Rear hub can fry the bearings or break otherwise. Can't find the thread where guy had broken the wheel flange...

Yes, Sticky tires often puts more load on the hub/wheel bearings for making a turn. Even OE tire sizes w/ better performance tread compounds puts extra load on the wheel bearings.

Vender sells TRW brand parts? Problem is often one company makes the hub for most brands. You get same iffy part but price and warranty can vary widely.

Made in US is safe?
You need to read US Customs etc for rules what terms mean.
Hub makers can legally say Made in US and still have Chinese Bearings.
If anything says Assembled in US... Most to all parts made elsewhere and small amount of work to assemble the pieces.
Example: Many says Cree LED bulbs are US Made. Wrong. Package says Assembled in the US. Is a Big Difference.

Never preload Fiero front bearing! You will kill them doing that.
See my Cave, Front Bearings

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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mcguiver3
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Report this Post01-07-2015 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been autocrossing my 88 Formula for over 12 years now and have had 3 hub failures.
One was my fault by doing a little off track excursion at Pocono North course and 2 failures from over use.
The car weighs 2150# and the tire are R Comps 245/40 17 rear 225/45 17 fronts.
We do about 13 to 15 autocross events each season and a minimum of 6 runs each event.
The car is a continual class winner and currently F Prepared class champion for 2014 in our club.
The car is a blast to drive and no other issues have been experienced.
Just installed the OBX LSD.
So I think for 10 years and really 2 rear failures and 2 fronts that got a bit too loose for the tech guys, not a bad ratio.
The car is driven hard and many events by 2 drivers.
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dobey
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Report this Post01-07-2015 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mcguiver3:
I have been autocrossing my 88 Formula for over 12 years now and have had 3 hub failures.
The car weighs 2150# and the tire are R Comps 245/40 17 rear 225/45 17 fronts.


This is probably the key thing that has helped you here. Losing 600 lbs also makes a huge difference on bearing load.

Is that car still legal to drive on the street? Would you even want to if it is?
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mcguiver3
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Report this Post01-07-2015 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is not legal for the street.
I do know the lower weight is a big factor.
The car was stripped out about 6 years ago but for the first 6 years it was legal.
Now it's strictly a play toy.
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