[Posted for a reddit user, as he is awaiting account approval here.] **As such, they may not be able to respond to this post in a timely manner, but will follow the thread.**
1984 Pontiac Fiero 2.5 Litre 5 Speed Manual All stock. No mods, etc.
So 7 months ago I fired up my Fiero to drive it for the summer and was going to take it for a spin when I went to depress the clutch pedal and it wouldn't move! Long story stort, the master cylinder had seized. I replaced it and now the clutch pedal moves smoothly and as it used to.
Before replacing the master I stomped on that clutch pedal American History X style trying to get it to move and I bent the clutch pedal. Fair enough, my fault. I ordered a new pedal from fierostore and compared it to the old one I pulled out and yep, it was definitely bent. I've seen bled the line between the master and slave time and time again, and then bled the slave as per instructions I found on Pennock's forums. I could not get any more air to come out. It's all smooth fluid. I've been through at least 2 litres of brake fluid by now.
Now here is what's wrong today. The clutch refuses to disengage entirely. There was no problem with the clutch itself when I parked it, the only problems have been with the hydraulic system and then the pedal.
This is what I have already done: Banjo loop faces up on master push rod connection to clutch pedal. No play in banjo connection. Main line bled first, no bubbles. Cylinder bled afterwards, no bubbles. Car jacked up on driver side to ensure air would travel up from the piston towards the bleeder. Clutch pedal sits 1 inch higher than brake pedal, as it should according to multiple forums I have read. Slave cylinder push rod and clutch lever arm travels about 1-1/8". No grinding, sponginess or unusual feel in the pedal. No loss of fluid found under vehicle or fluid missing from reservoir. No mechanical play in the pedals or bent connections that I can see beyond the bend I put into the original clutch pedal.
I am at my wits end here. I know the clutch itself worked just fine before the master seized and the pedal bent. What could I be missing? Thanks in advance!
[Posted for a reddit user, as he is awaiting account approval here.] **As such, they may not be able to respond to this post in a timely manner, but will follow the thread.**
In the mean time I will pass messages from them along when needed. -BenL
[This message has been edited by BenL (edited 01-02-2015).]
Oops, my bad, I just went out and looked and found that it is in fact a 4 speed. It's been so long since I have driven it I forgot. Also, I can push it into R and 2nd easily. 1 is difficult, and 3 & 4 are impossible. This is with the engine OFF.
[This message has been edited by BenL (edited 01-02-2015).]
Normally if there's a problem with shifting due to the clutch hydraulics, the problem only presents itself when the engine is running. With the engine not running, shifting through the gears is usually no problem.
I'm wondering if you've got issues with the shifter/select cable adjustment, or the shifter itself... or the tranny.
If you can put the tranny in 1st gear with the engine not running, are you able to push in the clutch and start the engine without the car wanting to creep forward?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-01-2015).]
Have you tried it while running? Often when just sitting parked the gears aren't lined up quite right in the transmission to go into all speeds. If you haven't moved the car yet then try pushing it forwards a few inches, that might let it go into different speeds than it is currently. And like Patrick suggested, try starting it in first or reverse. If it starts to move then you likely do have a hydraulic issue.
Have someone push in the clutch while you watch the arm on the trans and make sure it is moving. Also measure the throw. Should be over an inch. Do this first before you look any farther.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Have someone push in the clutch while you watch the arm on the trans and make sure it is moving. Also measure the throw. Should be over an inch. Do this first before you look any farther.
Rodney, didn't you read his first post?
quote
Originally posted by BenL:
Clutch pedal sits 1 inch higher than brake pedal, as it should according to multiple forums I have read. Slave cylinder push rod and clutch lever arm travels about 1-1/8".
Clutch disc is maybe rusted tight to the pressure plate or flywheel.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
There are two adjustments on the 4 speed that can cause this. The first is the transmission levers. There is a slot on the one nearest the trunk. If it isn't right you won't get it into at least one gear. You have to have someone to move it while you actuate the pedal to get it right.
The second one is the shifter itself. There is a 10mm bolt on the small bracket forward of the shift lever. It will loosen and you have to adjust it.
Basically though, the one on the transmission is most likely your issue.
When clutches wear, they won't grab so you know it can't be that unless it is rusted and that is unlikely.
Hello. I am the original Reddit poster. My account was finally activated today. If I put the vehicle into gear and hold down the clutch and try to start the car, it will jump.
The lever and slave cylinder do in fact move at least an inch.
When the vehicle is running and I try to push it into 1st or 2nd the synchros grind. I can try to push it into reverse and all I hear is the straight gears ringing as they grind.
The clutch will not disengage whatsoever. I can observe the shift linkage moving freely and the slave cylinder and lever have no obstructions.
I parked the car initially without any shifting problems. It shifted just fine when I last drove it. Whatever happened to the car happened while it was sitting outdoors undriven between Feb 2014 and September 2014 is a fairly temperate climate. The car was not exposed to temperatures greater than minus 3 to 32 Degrees Celcius.
[This message has been edited by schallis (edited 01-02-2015).]
I've not heard nor read of Arn's adjustment method, but I'm not saying it isn't a valid procedure. I've always used a drill bit or pin in the shifter, by placing the lever into the First Gear position and inserting the pin horizontally into the side of the shift lever to hold it into place. Then I loosen the nut on the transmission lever, move the lever to be sure it's fully into First gear and tighten the cable nut. This will align the shift mechanism for the neutral gate and allow the trans to go into all gears. This is especially helpful when you have problems getting into Reverse.
If you can get the vehicle to a long, steep hill, you may be able to place it into Second gear, turn on the ignition and have several friends push you to get the car started. Once started, press in the clutch and quickly accelerate and decelerate to try to break the clutch plate loose from the flywheel. I wouldn't tow it because if it starts, you may not be able to stop without the aid of the rear end of the tow vehicle. OOPS!
As for the clutch not releasing, that has nothing to do with the cable or shifter mechanism. Rodney is probably on the right track that the disk is stuck to the flywheel. If the above method fails and you have a helper, lift the car and remove the flywheel inspection plate. You may have to remove the starter first. Have the helper depress the clutch while you observe the disk. You should see it release some of it's pressure on the flywheel. If you have good pushback pressure on your pedal, you know the pressure plate is working properly.
I've seen clutch discs rusted to the pressure plate and/or flywheel after long storage times. The way to get them loose is to get the car moving and drive it in first gear (maybe 2nd) with the clutch peddle to the floor get on and off the gas. Do this on a deserted road if possible. Most likely in time it will release and work again. Had a friend way back in the early 70's with a 67 GTO with the same problem. Took maybe a quarter mile and it let loose and worked fine after that.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
This has happened to a few here thru the years because I have typed this same reply at least a few times.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Wow, so this is something that happens? The clutch rusts to the flywheel, eh?
Would rocking the car back and forth in gear with the clutch pedal depressed break it free? I live in a fairly built up area and would have a hard time driving a vehicle I cant stop with all the intersections and pedestrians around.
Can we safely rule out hydraulics or pedal mechanical problems if the clutch arm moves over an inch?
I think you can rule out the hydraulic system. Just thought of another way to roll it and break it loose. Leave the ignition in the OFF position and hook a tow vehicle to it. Put it in gear and push in the clutch. That way if the engine turns over, it won't fire off and run into the tow vehicle. Adjust your cables before doing anything, though. Just so you can shift the gears.
In case it's not a rusted clutch plate, it be worth noting that a slave cylinder can take on air without leaking fluid. I once had one pull in air but not discernibly push any fluid out. I would bleed it until no bubbles showed, but it let air in again around the piston and wouldn't release the clutch. It only took a small bit of lost stroke for the clutch to not disengage.
A new slave fixed it for a while until it wore out prematurely. Rodney's aluminum slave fixed it more permanently.
Thanks for all your help. I am going to try some of these things tomorrow.
Edit: @ Michael - I have re-bled the thing a few times and no air comes out. I ensure the bleeder is elevated higher than the piston to ensure any air would be able to escape. I am fairly confident that the slave is functioning correctly.
Thanks you.
[This message has been edited by schallis (edited 01-02-2015).]
I thought of another trick that might work. Raise the rear of the car and start it and let the wheels spin up to speed, then slam on the brakes with the clutch depressed. I'm going to try this when I get home from work tonight.
Get both wheels off the ground and try it. If one wheel is still on the ground, it might grab traction. Be sure to block the front and rear of both front wheels.
Your climate is temperate, but your rainfall is heavy......I'm beginning to think that Rodney is right.
Nanaimo BC is only 63 kilometers or 39 miles from Vancouver BC. I've had Fieros sitting in my back yard in the rain unmoved/unstarted for up to eight years with no rusted clutch issues. Not saying it couldn't happen, but just saying that all the rainfall here won't necessarily create that problem.
quote
Originally posted by schallis:
I thought of another trick that might work. Raise the rear of the car and start it and let the wheels spin up to speed, then slam on the brakes with the clutch depressed. I'm going to try this when I get home from work tonight.
Careful!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-02-2015).]
What if I just make a video showing the travel of the clutch arm next to a tape measure and post a link to it here? Then maybe someone can tell me if anything looks out of the ordinary.
Here are some pictures I took the other day if anyone is interested.
Here is a video of me starting it up in reverse then attemping to break it free by reving and braking. I then attempt to take it though the gears with the clutch engaged, and then without, and then with again. No diference in operation. The vehicle is on jackstands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mopc-xbjPE&
Judging from that image, I'd say you're not getting enough throw. That's not 1 1/8" as reported earlier.
The red arrow is where you're at. The green arrow is where you need to be. That's another 3/16". I suspect you've still got air in the system. Is that the original slave?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-03-2015).]
I don't know if that's original slave, but I have not replaced it. I am happy to hear that the issue could still be Hydraulic, but now I don't know what to do with it. I thought I went over the hydraulics as carefully as possible. Any suggestions? While pushing the car, i cracked both my tail lights. Today sucks. =\
[This message has been edited by schallis (edited 01-03-2015).]
Yeah? Fair enough. Whats another 70 bucks now that I have 200 dollars worth of tail lights to buy.
I wonder what shipping to Canada will be.
Edit: Does the Rodney slave bleed easier? Do i have to go through the process of pushing in the piston when I bleed it, or will keeping the bleeder uphill be enough?
Edit2: Maybe I should just buy his master w/ the adjustable banjo while I'm at it. The master I installed was just from Lordco.
[This message has been edited by schallis (edited 01-03-2015).]
Rodney is great. He will ship whatever the cheapest method is to Canada (or anywhere).
quote
Originally posted by schallis:
Does the Rodney slave bleed easier? Do i have to go through the process of pushing in the piston when I bleed it, or will keeping the bleeder uphill be enough?
Pushing in the slave piston is easy. I just clamp some vice-grips on the rod, and with the bleeder open, pull or push the rod until the piston bottoms out. While it's bottomed, slide a wedge of wood between the end of the rod and the lever that the rod normally pushes against. Then bleed the system. (I prefer pressure bleeding, but gravity bleeding will work as well.)
quote
Originally posted by schallis:
Maybe I should just buy his master w/ the adjustable banjo while I'm at it. The master I installed was just from Lordco.
With your clutch pedal sitting 1" above your brake pedal, it probably isn't necessary to replace the banjo and new master you already have.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-03-2015).]
Do i have to go through the process of pushing in the piston when I bleed it, or will keeping the bleeder uphill be enough?
If you put a jack under the drivers side and jack up the drivers side slightly so it is higher than the passenger side all the air will be by the bleeder port in the slave cylinder and all the air will exit the slave cylinder when you bleed the slave cylinder. My opinion of pushing in the push rod to get the air out of the slave cylinder is that when someone sits in the drivers seat it makes the drivers side lower and some air goes towards the passenger side in the slave and is not able to exit when bleeding the slave. Jacking up the drivers side slightly eliminates that. When I bled my system I did that and I was able to get 100% of the air out of the system.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Postal air first class mail to Canada is $15.00. Maybe $17.00 if you add the adjustable banjo.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Thanks for all the help. I measured the travel at the pushrod and found that I was in fact 1-1/8th. When I measured at the arm it was not an accurate measure.
Anyway, I reluctantly tried the thing I wanted to avoid, which was driving it on the road and hammering the accelerator in first gear to jerk the ruat-seized clutch free and it worked! I put plates in it and drove it to work today!
Anyway, I reluctantly tried the thing I wanted to avoid, which was driving it on the road and hammering the accelerator in first gear to jerk the ruat-seized clutch free and it worked! I put plates in it and drove it to work today!
What's a "ruat-seized clutch"?
Perhaps you should've mentioned that your Fiero had been submerged for awhile in the Strait of Georgia, and then maybe more of us would've clued in to your rusty clutch.
The sea breeze in Naniamo should be sufficient. I have seen some life-long Florida cars that looked like they came from the rust belt, and it turned out they were in beach car-ports.
