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Crank won't start -- v6 swap by Johan
Started on: 12-30-2014 05:10 PM
Replies: 53 (926 views)
Last post by: Johan on 05-31-2015 04:10 PM
Johan
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Report this Post12-30-2014 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi all!

Im in the finally stage of my v6 swap and now got some problem. The car is a base coupe, had before ironduke with auto, now v6 2.8 with auto. Got v6 engine and tranny in cradle with complete engine wiring. I have hooked up everthing ( I hope), but when cranking the engine won’t start.

I hear the fuelpump for a few seconds when turning key. I have seen that the tach rise from 0 to 200 while cranking, sometimes even higher. Ses-light is on. If I measure tbi2 and tbi1 I have 12v on both, have 5a fuse in both slots. A friend has looked at a sparkplug while cranking and it was a spark, yellow, but during test the battery had not so much energy. I have tried to set timing, set the harmonic dampers big groove at 10degress, checked that the piston is at top and placed the rotor pointing at first. Since the engine doesn’t start I’m not sure its correct, put my finger I sparkplug hole and felt much air coming out when turning engine, so I hope I have the right stroke. I see that the sparkplugs are wet, not souked. I have installed the old plugs but no change. Have measure coil according to Haynes step 2 and 3 is ok, but step 1 I get 0.00, as I understand I should be higher, it’s a new coil. Have tried another test found here at pff and then I get correct value. Get 12v from coil to ICM. Have 6,6k between pick-coil cables, but nothing between cable and ground. Have connected small ground stripe from engine to deck-lid mounts, have added a larger ground cable from auto gearbox to trunkwall, works.

Haven’t got a fuelpressure gauge, but today I depressed pin inside Schrader valve and got I small fountain of fuel. At my first try it just came little fuel and some air, but it was a little dark outside and I had no lamp, so I can be wrong, but could it be air in the fuelsystem? Have changed fuelpump, added 10 liters of new fuel, at least 10 liters were there before and is 1 ½ years old. Checked pink and pink/white cable on 6pool-connector to injector and got 12v on both, added ground to D16 slot at ECM and heard a click inside engine bay, as I was alone today I can’t verify that it was injector firing but I hope so. At ECM I get 12v at B1, C16 and A6

My battery is weak, have 12,5v before cranking doesn’t know while cranking, but the energy doesn’t last for long. I hooked up my daily driver to get enough power to start engine, the engine turns really hard though, when trying to set timing and turning the engine by hand I got blisters in my palm  If I fill plenum with startspray it turn much faster while cranking, but it still doesn’t fire.

Have a Purple wire that is not connected at c500 box near battery, as I understand it should be connected if i have manual tranny?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Report this Post12-30-2014 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you change the fuel pump? The V6 fuel pump is different.

Also...if ether does not start the car, the spark is weak....perhaps the ignition coil is not right.
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Report this Post12-30-2014 06:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes I have dropped tank and changed fuelpump.

How many volts should the battery have to be good? Can a test coil in some other way?

Johan
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Report this Post12-30-2014 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


An ignition coil test:

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Report this Post12-31-2014 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I do test nr 1 I get 0.00 on my multimeter. I do the test through the cable going to the ICm since I get no reading while probing at the coil. Get the same result when I use the bolt holding the coil or using the cylinder head . Test 2 give the same result 0.00, test 3 is 9850 ohm. Have problem to get result testing pick-up to ground.

What value should test 1 have?

Thanks for your replies gall757

/Johan
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Report this Post12-31-2014 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If your meter reads 0.0 or no resistance, that's bad. It is supposed to go to a high number, but the actual value does not matter.
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Report this Post12-31-2014 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86soon3.4Send a Private Message to 86soon3.4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Make sure inj 1 and inj 2 fuses are good in the fuse panel
Under the dash.

Steve
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Report this Post12-31-2014 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Paul.SSend a Private Message to Paul.SEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

the engine turns really hard though, when trying to set timing and turning the engine by hand I got blisters in my palm

My suggestion is to get this one sorted out first. If you run an engine that isn't turning freely you may long for the days when your only problem was no start.

 
quote
If I fill plenum with startspray it turn much faster while cranking, but it still doesn’t fire.

Lets hope that is not because startspray is a better lube than whatever is left of the oil that was on the cylinders!

What is the history of the V6? How long since it ran?

Pull all the plugs and turn by hand. If you aren't amazed at how easily it turns with the plugs out, figure out why. If it's poor lubrication check oil, put lightweight engine oil or something better in the spark plug holes and let it soak in. Then spin up the oil pump with a drill. Turn a few revs by hand and feel for improvement. Spin the engine with the starter to blow out excess oil before putting the plugs back in. -Paul.

------------------
1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988

[This message has been edited by Paul.S (edited 12-31-2014).]

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Report this Post01-01-2015 06:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Squirt a little oil into each spark plug hole, your rings are dry and are not sealing well. Use regular engine oil.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 01-01-2015).]

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Report this Post01-01-2015 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the engine 3.5 years ago, bought it from our fiero-guru in Sweden. He took it from a wrecked car in a scrap-yard, have no info when it ran.

Have new fuses in tbi 1 and 2.

I will pull the plugs and drop some oil into the hole and see what happen, thank you all.

/Johan
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Report this Post01-04-2015 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yesterday I squirted some oil into each cylinder, I let it souk for a hour, then I cranked the engine, it ran much faster now(plugs out)Tonight I did the same thing, it's turns easy when plugs are out but it's the same as before when the plugs are in. At some points it's feel like a slack when turning the harmonic balancer, is that normal? When I tried to set timing it happen that I got stuck and couldn't turn the engine, but if I waited two minutes it was easy to turn the engine and I could continue. I'm not sure how easy a engine should turn, I tried my old iron duke tonight, that engine have no oil in it, but felt equally hard as the v6. Could it be wrong oil, what type should I have?

/Johan
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Report this Post01-04-2015 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LornesGTSend a Private Message to LornesGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably just turning on the compression stroke of each piston, it does get harder then.
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Report this Post01-05-2015 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Paul.SSend a Private Message to Paul.SEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

it's turns easy when plugs are out

Then you should be good to go now.

 
quote
Could it be wrong oil, what type should I have?

My V6 calls for 5W-30. How cold is it where the car is? What oil is in there now? You have changed the oil, haven't you? -Paul


------------------
1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988

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Report this Post01-05-2015 06:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have used semi synthetic 10-40w, the engine have had oil in it all time, but I have changed it recently. The auto tranny was kind of low of fluid, I have added but don't know if it's enough, could a low level cause any problem at this stage?

It's kind of cold here at the moment, I'm working outside and tonight it was -1 Celsius.

I double checked ignition tonight and Now got a question. If I put big groove at 10 and feel piston coming up, keep turning and when piston is at top or almost past it next groove a small one is at 10, is that correct?

Charging battery overnight and try to start tomorrow, will try measuring how many volts I have will cranking.

/Johan
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Report this Post01-06-2015 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nevermind this post, remember to tighten your cable to negative side of the battery

/Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 01-06-2015).]

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Report this Post01-06-2015 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bad connection somewhere....I would remove the battery ground at the engine and clean that one with a wire brush. Perhaps the starter connection too.
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Report this Post01-06-2015 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I tried to start the car tonight, with power assistens from my daily driver. I had 14 v on the battery and the starter ran smooth. Since I was alone I had to move the distributor a bit and then turn key again, but at one point the engine ran, only for a second. Used some starting spray, but didn't make any difference.

I think my todo list is to find a helper so I can turn distributor while cranking and see how the spark look like. Should also see if I can find a fuel pressure gauge, any more things to do?

/Johan
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Report this Post01-06-2015 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I recommend you stop using starter spray, it may be fooling you because it can diesel and ignite without a spark as well as take oil off the cylinder walls and do other major damage. I may be wrong but if the engine is turning and you jump the right pins on the diagnostic port you should be able to time it with a light. If you have spark and it's timed then fuel is the issue. Again I may be wrong about setting the timing while it's being turned by the starter.
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Report this Post01-24-2015 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well tonight I work some on the Fiero after some cold and snowy weatear. Its still cold here, 0 degrees that might affect the results. Tried the pick-up while cranking 0,3-0,5 volts. Have hooked up battery and it have 14.1 volts when test starts, think the spark is still yellow, have still spark if I have a small gap to engine. Tried to use timinglight, got a weak flash in the beginning, but none after a few turns. Don’t know if its because I have bought a crappy light or the spark is to weak. The connector to the sparkcable doesn’t connect tight to the cable it’s kind of loose, should it be that way? When I pulled plugs they were really wet, if I get fuel and good spark, shouldn’t I get backfires or something even if the timing is off? Feels like the engine turns hard again, maybe should wait for warmer weather before I continue.

/Johan
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Report this Post01-24-2015 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Well tonight I work some on the Fiero after some cold and snowy weatear. Its still cold here, 0 degrees that might affect the results.


The weather should not matter.

 
quote
Tried the pick-up while cranking 0,3-0,5 volts. Have hooked up battery and it have 14.1 volts when test starts, think the spark is still yellow, have still spark if I have a small gap to engine.


What is this? If you are testing the pickup coil, it's not the right test. Have you gapped the spark plugs properly?

 
quote
Tried to use timinglight, got a weak flash in the beginning, but none after a few turns. Don’t know if its because I have bought a crappy light or the spark is to weak. The connector to the sparkcable doesn’t connect tight to the cable it’s kind of loose, should it be that way?


that's OK....but your battery still may be too weak to maintain a spark.

 
quote
When I pulled plugs they were really wet, if I get fuel and good spark, shouldn’t I get backfires or something even if the timing is off?


Yes, you should. I don't recall if you have tested them, but you could have leaky injectors that get the plugs too wet to fire...

 
quote
Feels like the engine turns hard again, maybe should wait for warmer weather before I continue.

/Johan


No.. you should figure this out!

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 01-25-2015).]

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Johan
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Report this Post01-25-2015 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for your help

The pick-up test i found herehere, tried it since I don't get result on both test above. Haven't gaped plugs, only compared the new ones to the old ones, will look into that.

Haven't done any tests with injectors, this far focus have been on timing and spark.

Think I need a new battery though.

/Johan
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Report this Post02-22-2015 04:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Finally i bought a new battery and could time the engine with a light, unfortunately the engine won’t start. I have a flash when the big groove passes 10 degree mark. We tried several times to start and at the last one the engine almost fired up. Could the fuel build up inside the cylinder and at one point its almost enough to fire but it gets to wet? The plugs are really wet. Tested the plug by holding it against the engine block and got spark, also got spark if I hold the plug 1 centimeter from the block, could that be enough? Could it be to low compression? Could I do another test before leaving spark and focus on fuel?

/Johan
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Report this Post02-22-2015 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Get the engine to where it is almost starting timing wise. Then oil the cylinders again and try it.
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Report this Post02-22-2015 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You do have a clean fuel filter right?
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Report this Post02-22-2015 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can we have a picture of the distributor orientation? Cap on, cap off, including coil and wires. You post pictures by downloading the PIP app. It's at the bottom of this page. You may have to resize your image if you use a high resolution.

It sounds like you have adequate spark and fuel now, but if it's not flooded your harmonic balancer may have slipped or maybe your distributor is 180 degrees off. If flooded you can push the accelerator all the way down and hold it while cranking. Or you could take the plugs out and dry them off. The fact that it ran a little when you turned the distributor is interesting, but yes, you can mess up an engine by overusing start spray.

-1C would be a heat wave for many of us this year. Welcome to the forum!

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 02-23-2015).]

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Report this Post02-22-2015 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 94blackbirdClick Here to Email 94blackbirdSend a Private Message to 94blackbirdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9:

Can we have a picture of the distributor orientation? Cap on, cap off, including coil and wires. You post pictures by downloading the PFF app. It's at the bottom of this page. You may have to resize your image if you use a high resolution.

It sounds like you have adequate spark and fuel now, but if it's not flooded your harmonic balancer may have slipped or maybe your distributor is 180 degrees off. If flooded you can push the accelerator all the way down and hold it while cranking. Or you could take the plugs out and dry them off. The fact that it ran a little when you turned the distributor is interesting, but yes, you can mess up an engine by overusing start spray.

-1C would be a heat wave for many of us this year. Welcome to the forum!


I have to agree about the timing. Are you out of room to rotate the distributor when it almost started?
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Report this Post02-23-2015 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's a picture caps on

and one off.

A little dark outside, but I hope they help.

Will try tomorrow to put some oil in the cylinders. I have changed the fuel filter some years ago, I have driven the car with the iron duke since, but it's 1½ years ago. And no im not out of room to turn the distributor.

Thanks for your help
Johan
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Report this Post02-23-2015 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think your distributor needs to be turned about 45 degrees counter-clockwise and the plug wires rotated one space in the other direction. Of course that would be the same as turning the distributor 15 degrees clockwise with the wires where they are, but the coil connector wires might not reach that far. Your coil may be firing in between plug towers.

It's a little hard to make out how it's positioned, but here are a couple pictures of my distributor.




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Report this Post02-24-2015 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Disregard the part about firing between towers. If you have spark, that can't be it. But the timing could be off.
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Report this Post02-25-2015 02:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's Running

Last night I put some oil in every cylinder, let it souk for an hour and turned the engine a couple of times without plug. Then I put the plugs back and it fired up after a few tries. I had it runing for 30 sec, then I had to turn it off because it came a lot of smoke from manifolds, hope its the extra oil from cylinders, but will try again tonight.

Thanks for all the help so far.

/Johan
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Report this Post02-25-2015 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

It's Running

Last night I put some oil in every cylinder, let it souk for an hour and turned the engine a couple of times without plug. Then I put the plugs back and it fired up after a few tries. I had it runing for 30 sec, then I had to turn it off because it came a lot of smoke from manifolds, hope its the extra oil from cylinders, but will try again tonight.

Thanks for all the help so far.


Great! I am sure the smoke is from oil spilled on the manifolds, maybe you can wipe them down with alcohol to remove the oil.
/Johan


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Report this Post03-11-2015 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A little update and some questions.

The engine starts at the moment, but it takes four tries to get it running. First time, it spins fast, second time I can hear it tries to fire, third time it fires but stops immediately and fourth time it runs. I have had it running a couple of times, it doesn't comes as much smokey from the tailpipes as before, but the longer the engine runs, the smoke increase, is that normal at this stage?

I have added almost 4,5 liters of autogear fluid, think it was empty before installation, but i haven't meet the marks yet, should i wait and check when engine is hot?

Have tried to set timing with a light, but sometimes the flash comes before mark and sometime after, but mostly it's at right position, what could be the reason for this?

Regards
Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 03-11-2015).]

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Report this Post03-11-2015 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

The engine starts at the moment, but it takes four tries to get it running. First time, it spins fast, second time I can hear it tries to fire, third time it fires but stops immediately and fourth time it runs.


Your cold start injector may not be working. Does it start quickly after you turn it off?

 
quote
I have had it running a couple of times, it doesn't comes as much smokey from the tailpipes as before, but the longer the engine runs, the smoke increase, is that normal at this stage?


no, it is not, but it's too soon to say what is going on. You could have a lot of oil in the exhaust manifold that is burning off.

 
quote
I have added almost 4,5 liters of autogear fluid, think it was empty before installation, but i haven't meet the marks yet, should i wait and check when engine is hot?


You could add small amounts until it shows up on the the mark. The final check should be with the engine running.

 
quote
I Have tried to set timing with a light, but sometimes the flash comes before mark and sometime after, but mostly it's at right position, what could be the reason for this?


Have you disabled the computer by jumping the ALDL connector?


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Report this Post03-11-2015 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for no2pencilClick Here to Email no2pencilSend a Private Message to no2pencilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was also going to suggest the cold start injector. When we did a 3.4L swap on my car which was a 4 cyl the key position for the cold start injector was wrong & would flood the engine. Changed again & it didn't work. But it would start with starting fluid.

The fiero factory replaced the wiring harness as there were other inconsistencies.
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Report this Post03-11-2015 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The other possibility is that there is a bad fuel pump relay. The V6 has a secondary switch in the oil pressure sender that will activate the fuel pump, but only after oil pressure goes up. Do you hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds when you turn the key to 'on'? (not 'start'). If you don't, the car may be starting with that secondary circuit.
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Johan
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Report this Post03-12-2015 12:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fuelpump runs 2 seconds when I turn the key, not cranking. Have jumped the aldl correct, double-check that today. I've measured the cold start switch and I shows 500 ohms with cold engine, don't know if it's ok. Auto fluid seems ok now. Will look into cold start more tonight .

Johan
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post03-12-2015 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It just might be the slipping harmonic balancer. If the harmonic balancer is bad the outer ring which has the timing mark can move relative to the part still connected to the crankshaft, making the timing mark unreliable. Search the threads on harmonic balancers. Short of replacing the balancer you might be able to time the engine by attaching or marking something on the crank part and using that as your mark. You'll likely need to determine the correct timing mark position even if you do get a new balancer because the ones usually available have the mark in the wrong place.
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Report this Post03-12-2015 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just looked at the nut holding the harmonic balancer and it was loose, think threads are gone because I could turn the nut both ways and nothing happened, is it bad or really bad? it's welded so I have to look tomorrow to see if it is the nut that's bad.

/ Johan
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85 SE VIN 9
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Report this Post03-12-2015 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85 SE VIN 9Click Here to Email 85 SE VIN 9Send a Private Message to 85 SE VIN 9Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welded? What's welded? The balancer? The balancer to the crankshaft?

The nut being loose might not matter. The balancer usually has to be removed with a puller; it's not going anywhere.

The balancer consists of an outer ring connected to an inner ring by a layer of rubber. If it's really bad you might be able to turn the outside of the balancer.

You can get a new Dorman balancer that doesn't match the timing mark or you can send your damper to Damper Doctor in California (west coast of US). If yours is rebuildable they'll send it back for about a hundred dollars plus shipping. If you're in Sweden, the country, you probably already know that shipping will likely be much more than the part, even if it's one way.

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Report this Post03-13-2015 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohanSend a Private Message to JohanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry for being unclear. The bolt/shaft is welded at the end, see picture, so I have to grind it off in order to get the nut out.



Will look into it this weekend.

/Johan
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