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OBD1 3800 wiring questions by 85red2m6
Started on: 12-19-2014 06:48 AM
Replies: 46 (975 views)
Last post by: 85red2m6 on 01-05-2015 04:39 PM
85red2m6
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Report this Post12-19-2014 06:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
just a couple quick questions for the wiring guru's... I ran a number of searches thru the forum and the archives, but couldn't find what I was looking for...
I'm finally starting into the wiring for the S1 3800SC that came in my convertible, and before I got some of the lines from the wiring harness, I figured I would ask a few things...
the car is an 85 GT with the Muncie in it, and the motor and PCM/wiring is from a 93 SSEi Bonneville... it took some doing, but I was finally able to track down a wiring schematic for the 92/93 PCM, so I've spent the better part of the last day and a half gutting interior and extraneious crap out of the rat's nest of a harness I got with the car, and it's finally starting to show progress, however, before I cut tranny and VATS wiring, I wanted to make sure I didn't need things...
first off, for the VATS, the Bonne harness already had the resistor mod done, do it saves me a bunch of messing around trying to work around the resistor key, but I was wondering how much the wire length affects the resistance the module sees... if I were to cut out all the extra wiring from the module to the ignition and wire the resistor right at the module itself, would that change the resistance enough that the module wouldn't see the right value? I'd like to get rid if the extra wire if possible, but not if it's gonna cause me VATS issues...
secondly, before I gut the tranny wiring, I remember reading somewheres that in order to keep the Check Engine light without reprogramming the PCM, you could wire the tranny harness somehow that it would see the tranny always in a certain gear, but I don't remember if it was sposed to be neutral or one of the gears, just wondering how I would wire this, if I need some kind of resistor or diode circuit or something, or if I'm out on left field somewhere with the idea... I still have the tranny wiring and the shifter wiring attached to the PCM harness and I wanted to figure this out before I cut it all off...

and before people rant on me about the down sides to using S1/OBD1, I know about the differences, but this is what was in the car when I bought it... the motor is installed, most of the exhaust is built, flywheel/clutch/etc is already in, the Bonne harness came with the car, I just have to do the wiring, plumbing, and fuel system... plus I have a spare motor in my written off 93 SSEi if something happens to this motor or it doesn't run properly or if it's bad to start with... I will likely do a S2 or S3 swap in the future, whether for this car or one of my others, but for now, I want this swap finished and driveable...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-19-2014).]

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ericjon262
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Report this Post12-19-2014 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
wire resistance shouldn't be a problem for VATS, unless you have a bad connection somewhere, worst case, get an ohm meter and measure the resistance of the wire, and add the appropriate amount to the current resistor.

as for the tranny wiring, I would assume neutral, but I would wire it tot he clutch switch, so it thinks neutral with the pedal pushed.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 12-19-2014).]

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Report this Post12-20-2014 04:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Vats is VERY easy to bypass, you can take the grey or light blue best i recall it is the input wire from module to computer and tap it to ground really fast like a nervous twitch while cranking, once it starts tuck wire away and will not have to touch again unless you disconnect battery...
As far as trans I do not remember doing anything different to the wiring than the way it was in donor, i have had my series I car tore down for couple years but best i recall when it is in park or Neutral it will not rev past 1500 rpm... so I do not think wiring it to always think it is in Neutral or park is a good idea ( I could be wrong)

------------------


87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft)
(series II swap in progress)
85GT Northstar/ 4t80e
86GT 3800 n/a---sold
Northstar Rebuild

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ericjon262
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Report this Post12-20-2014 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jb1:

As far as trans I do not remember doing anything different to the wiring than the way it was in donor, i have had my series I car tore down for couple years but best i recall when it is in park or Neutral it will not rev past 1500 rpm... so I do not think wiring it to always think it is in Neutral or park is a good idea ( I could be wrong)



this is why I recommend using a clutch switch.
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-20-2014 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks guys... I actually found a page on the gmtuners site a couple hours ago that explains how to do the tranny wiring... it actually involves using 194 light bulbs in place if the shift solenoids and a couple relays to trick the ECM into either N or 3rd depending on how you wire them... I was thinking of wiring it into the clutch switch and the E-Brake for neutral, and leaving it open for 3rd for any other time... it saves me having to reprogram the PCM...

and as for the VATS, it already has the bypass resistor in the donor harness, so it's already bypassed, I just wasn't sure how sensitive the unit was to the resistance value, if hacking 5 ft of wire out of that circuit (to bring the resistor right up to the VATS module itself) would change the resistance enough that the module would have issues or not...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Report this Post12-20-2014 03:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:

and as for the VATS, it already has the bypass resistor in the donor harness, so it's already bypassed, I just wasn't sure how sensitive the unit was to the resistance value, if hacking 5 ft of wire out of that circuit (to bring the resistor right up to the VATS module itself) would change the resistance enough that the module would have issues or not...



yeah, the resistance of five feet of wire is negligible at best, should be fine to solder the resistor right to the module
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-20-2014 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
kool, that works... the more wire I can remove from this rat's nest the better, lol

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-22-2014 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:

thanks guys... I actually found a page on the gmtuners site a couple hours ago that explains how to do the tranny wiring... it actually involves using 194 light bulbs in place if the shift solenoids and a couple relays to trick the ECM into either N or 3rd depending on how you wire them... I was thinking of wiring it into the clutch switch and the E-Brake for neutral, and leaving it open for 3rd for any other time... it saves me having to reprogram the PCM...

and as for the VATS, it already has the bypass resistor in the donor harness, so it's already bypassed, I just wasn't sure how sensitive the unit was to the resistance value, if hacking 5 ft of wire out of that circuit (to bring the resistor right up to the VATS module itself) would change the resistance enough that the module would have issues or not...



You could just have someone custom tune your chip to disable VATS and the auto trans functions in the factory programming...

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-22-2014 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ryan, I will probly do that in the future once the car is driveable and I have all the other bugs worked out of it... VATS is minor, the resistor will do the trick for the time being... unfortunately, my budget is extremely limited right now, so this is pretty much just to get it functional for now (preferably without a constant CEL glaring in my face, lol) until I'm in a better position financially... Right now, it's mostly just a matter of me being tired of seeing the convertible sitting in my garage for the last year and a half with me not able to do anything on it, so I'm busting my butt to get as much done before I go back to work after Xmas or New Years... I finally got my hands on wiring schematics last weekend, so I've spent the last few nights gutting the junk out of the 3800 dash-forward harness that came with the car and getting it ready to reconstruct into the Fiero...
As it stands, I'm more concerned with getting the motor running and making sure everything works than making it pretty, so I will end up re-doing the harness later to tuck, wrap, and clean it up...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Report this Post12-22-2014 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:

Ryan, I will probly do that in the future once the car is driveable and I have all the other bugs worked out of it... VATS is minor, the resistor will do the trick for the time being...


Just so we are clear, you do have the VATS module from the donor 3800 car installed and wired up (and the resistor is wired up to this), correct? You cannot just wire a resistor up to the PCM directly to bypass VATS.

 
quote

unfortunately, my budget is extremely limited right now, so this is pretty much just to get it functional for now (preferably without a constant CEL glaring in my face, lol) until I'm in a better position financially... Right now, it's mostly just a matter of me being tired of seeing the convertible sitting in my garage for the last year and a half with me not able to do anything on it, so I'm busting my butt to get as much done before I go back to work after Xmas or New Years... I finally got my hands on wiring schematics last weekend, so I've spent the last few nights gutting the junk out of the 3800 dash-forward harness that came with the car and getting it ready to reconstruct into the Fiero...
As it stands, I'm more concerned with getting the motor running and making sure everything works than making it pretty, so I will end up re-doing the harness later to tuck, wrap, and clean it up...



You might still get a check engine light coming on with the stock auto trans tune because the PCM is going to be looking for a 24,000 ppm VSS signal coming from the trans. Your Muncie transmission's VSS only outputs 4000 pulses per mile (PPM). Shouldn't affect performance any but you could have a little bit of idle stability problems and the engine could possibly stall. But you should be able to at least get it running and drive it like this.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-22-2014).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post12-22-2014 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can also get a VATs signal generator for dirt cheap on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-...em4186510605&vxp=mtr

Of course that is still money you could have put towards the reprogramming of the PCM.
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-22-2014 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks for the link Timm, and yes, I do have the original VATS module that is already wired with the resistor. by the looks of the harness, the car had a command start in it, so I assume that's the reason for the resistor mod...
also, this is the 92/93 PCM, so it only uses a 4000ppm VSS, not the 24k one... I could modify it to run the VSS signal at double rate, then use the 2000ppm output from the PCM for the speedo, but for now, if the PCM is only seeing half speed, and as long as it doesn't kick the code for it, I will leave it alone... the speedo is still gonna see the stock 2000ppm anyways with this setup, it's just what the PCM sees that would have to change...I will figure out the cruise control later, as I don't have that module from the donor anyways...

one more question, while I'm thinking about it:
the TCC PWM lines, is the PCM gonna kick a CEL code if it doesn't see that PWM signal? I'm assuming not because I haven't seen anything on that, but I figured I would ask to be sure...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-22-2014).]

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cmechmann
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Report this Post12-22-2014 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm using a 1993 series 1 PCM from a Park avenue ultra. 16141470. It expects a 50hz signal from a VATS module or from a BCM. The resistor value is sent to one or the other from the key.
Yes you will get a CEL for PWM TCC control line, but as a code 26 or 56 quad driver error. You can get the same code if the temp light bulb is not connected to the PCM or the bulb is out. Also if a purge control solenoid is not connected.
The "bulb on trans solenoid lines" works, but not ideal. The trans shift to load tables in rom are pretty long. The PCM adjust timing and fuel depending on those signals. You can make a manual work. When running with fooled inputs, the PCM kind of runs in a semi generic table.
The diode, resistor buffer for the speedometer that GM turners shows, along with many others, works well. I'm using the 4k line. After setting the road constant in rom my speedo is within 0.5% accurate. It's been several months, but I think I had to play with the capacitor values.
I haven't hooked it up yet. And I spent a great deal of time mowing over signal values and schematics. Buy what I can tell the PCM will handle the cruise without the cruise control module. Or use a later Servo. You connect the PCM directly to the cruise servo. (vac/vent solenoids, servo position, etc.) Most of the colors from the PCM harness were the same. No need to run a VSS line to the cruise module. You would need to extend the wiring from the turn signal switch cruise buttons. To the corresponding lines to the PCM.
Mine was also a Series 1 3800 SC. I have swapped another engine. So now it is as follows. 1993 16141470 PCM, 1998 Series II 3600 SC, 1995 4T60e broadcast code 5AFW with modded internal wiring(no temp switch, and pwm tcc not on/off).
Have you ever flashed anything with onboard EEprom. It is really not that hard or expensive. In the long run will save you a lot of headaches making work arounds. Believe me. I don't have the funds. My swap is ghetto. The $100.00 I spent on being able to edit my EEprom was well worth it.
Tuner Pro is free but I don't trust it's definition file for 1992/93 3800 SC. I spotted some spark table irregularities. But I do use it to edit flags and view data.
It also has good compare features.
The one I trust the most is an older DOS program GMEPRO. I just upgraded to Win8. So I will have to see how it works now, but worked fine in XP.
I can't speak on his behalf, but the writer of that program is a member here. I would suggest downloading it(there is a free version, saving turned off). Read ALL the notices. The man spend a lot of time and effort on it. So I respected that and adhered to the notices. The program has gotten dated due to ODBII. However in DOS it is written well.
Raid one or two "memcals" from junk yard PCMs of the same service number. They used it on a lot of cars.
Buy one of those $60.00 eeprom programmers. All over ebay. Get 2 or 3 EEproms. They're cheap and available. I recondmend SST. Find the pins on your memcal from your PCM that go to the prom chip. Use pins to extend the socket connections to read your prom in your programmer. That will give you your base "bin" file. Most of the EEprom information is on GM tuners and GM EFI. Search for programming GM Eproms. I use 3 memcals so I have the original, working and a test. There is a pop out behind the center compartment/PCM cover. Make it a little larger and you can change your EEprom easier.
Cut the leads at the prom chip on one of the other memcals. Cut as close to the chip as possible to leave most of the lead in the socket. Solder a Zif socket to the leads. Or buy the Moats adapter. My soldered one works. Bring your base bin up in Tuner Pro. Once you bring it up in an editor, things start to make sense. I would change flags and switches in Tuner Pro, but I'm not changing any of the table values in it. Flags would be things you don't want you PCM to look for (EGR, VATS, gear select). Switches would be things you want or don't want to control(shifting) or the rate(road constant for speedo). Makes much more sense in an editor. I haven't edited any of the tables and most likely won't. Except lowered some of the upshift speeds.
I turned off the flag to watch for EGR solenoid 3. My EGR only has 2. Turned off VATS. Changed the fan on/off temps. Changed the temp on for TCC. Changed the road constant to match my tires and VSS signal. Because I went from Series 1 to II I had to change the injector flow rate.
After you are done in the editor, save the "bin" as a different name to flash with your programmer to a EEprom. You can use Tuner Pro's compare to see if you only changed the areas you wanted to. Put the flashed EEprom into the ZIF socket and install the memcal. It it works, great. You just have to reach through the hole and pop in EEproms after that. If not put the original back in. I made a copy of the original bin(except VATS) and flashed it to an EEprom so I don't have to change the memcal.
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Report this Post12-22-2014 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PWM - Pulse Width Modulation - is an output.

At a given fixed frequency, the on portion of the signal (ie pulse width) is increased by the PCM to get an increased reaction of what it is controlling.

Now if the ECM doesn't see a load when it sends out a signal it will cause an MIL. It however is not an input technically since it is an output.
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Report this Post12-22-2014 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:


also, this is the 92/93 PCM, so it only uses a 4000ppm VSS, not the 24k one...


ALL 1992-newer FWD 3800 SC PCMs (OBD1 and OBD2) used a 24k PPM VSS. No exceptions.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-22-2014).]

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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-22-2014 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Timm, PWM signal is input to the tranny from the PCM? is there a way to fake that load, like a light bulb or LED or resistor or something?


Ryan, ok, that's interesting, because the pages from the 92 GM service manual I'm working from labels al the VSS signals as 2000ppm or 4000ppm in all the schematics... is the service manual wrong?


cmechmann, that's awesome info, more than what I was looking for, but now that I know it, it will be super-useful... And my PCM is the same number. I'm somewhat familiar with GMEPro, I've tinkered with it, but never had the hardware or binfiles to actually put it to use... Been a few years since I looked at it tho, and I'm not sure if it works with 7 or 8 either, lol, but I've got plenty of older systems around that run XP and are still functional, if it comes down to it. however, since I have several other swaps in progress (or at least awaiting progress, lol) that will require or could at least benefit from having access to tuning abilities, and since I last posted on here, I found out that my employment insurance is set to kick in within the next few days and I will be getting back-paid for the last 2 months (finally, lol), so investing a little money into hardware like that is a little more feasable than it was this morning... and I'm not scared to get into the editor and tinker, tho I like your idea of 3 proms...
do you have model or part number info for that hardware you were talking about? I like the idea of the ZIF socket... being in computers for over 30 years, I was around to rejoice when they switched over, lol...

and I will be adding the cruise servo later when I get around to pulling it out of my wrecked 93 SSEi, so the wiring will be in the harness, just not hooked up just yet...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Report this Post12-22-2014 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Remember this only works with 1993 and earlier.
The programmer
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SIV...&hash=item566e3c9c4e
EEprom SST sf27c256
1994 were just crap PCMs. 1995 and 1996 are flackey to flash. 1997 and later. Stand alone(vin locked) flash tools and pass through scanners seem still a bit pricey for just personal use.

To me the problem isn't making the PCM see a load. It is how it responds to something that is suppose to happen and doesn't.
You fool it to simulate 3rd gear and it detects a different ratio. TCC applied and no RPM change or load difference. 1992 PCMs had torque management features. Simpler/different than the 4T65e but there are engine management changes unless edited out.
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-23-2014 05:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
well, I guess that will give me things to tinker with once I'm set up, lol... and I'm running a Muncie anyways, so once it thinks the TC is locked in, it should be happy, I would think...

bad news, that programmer does not ship to Canada, and it looks like I may be out of luck on that EEprom unit, as the company that made it seems to have been bought up and then split up in another name... I have not been able to find any kind of cross reference yet, lol (still digging tho)

and 93 is ok too, as anything I would be programming would be 93 or older anyways, lol

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-23-2014 06:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
would this programmer work?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/USB-...IC-SPI-/221092473435

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-23-2014).]

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quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:

Ryan, ok, that's interesting, because the pages from the 92 GM service manual I'm working from labels al the VSS signals as 2000ppm or 4000ppm in all the schematics... is the service manual wrong?



The 92 PCM definitely has a 4000ppm output (primarily used to run the speedo). Not sure if it also had a 2000ppm output.

In 1992, the 3800 SC engine was only available with a 4T60-E auto trans. And those transmissions only used a 24,000ppm VSS (fed to the PCM). They never used anything else.

The older 440T4/4T60 used to have a 4000ppm VSS, but that was back in the 80's. Later on they had 40,000ppm VSS's and some may have even had a 24,000ppm VSS before they were discontinued in 1993. But a non-electronic 440T4/4T60 was never offered with a 3800 SC engine from the factory.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-23-2014).]

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quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:

Remember this only works with 1993 and earlier.
The programmer
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SIV...&hash=item566e3c9c4e
EEprom SST sf27c256
1994 were just crap PCMs. 1995 and 1996 are flackey to flash. 1997 and later. Stand alone(vin locked) flash tools and pass through scanners seem still a bit pricey for just personal use.



Concerning 3800 Series 1 SC applications...

1992-93 used PCM Serv No: 16141470 (alt p/n: 16177107)
1994-95 used PCM Serv No: 16183247 (alt p/n: 16197428)

The 16141470 PCM used a 27C256 EPROM chip.
The 16183247 PCM used a 27C512 EPROM chip.

A modern 27SF512 Flash Memory chip can be substituted for either the 27C256 or 27C512 EPROM chip. The 27C256 and 27C512 EPROM chips require a UV lamp erasure device to erase them.

The $85 moates.net BURN2 chip programmer can erase and program the 27SF512 chips, electronically (no UV lamp required).

1996-newer 3800 Series 2 engines used OBD2 PCMs that must be reflashed using an interface and specific tuning software which differs from the OBD1 stuff.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-23-2014).]

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Report this Post12-23-2014 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
yeah that programmer uses the same chip set as the one I have. You don't have to use an Eprom but an EEprom. Eproms have to be erased with UV. EEproms can be erased with the programmer. You can use a 512 in place of a 256 but you would have to play with the programmer to "stack" the bin. The PCM reads the last 256 area of the Eprom so you either have to have it write to the last 256 area (with blank data in the first 256 area) or double up the write to write the bin in the first half and the second half of the memory area.
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Report this Post12-23-2014 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The programmer comes with software to read different type chips. When I set it to read a standard 27C256 (the OE prom) it gave me errors. There were no manufacture numbers on the GM prom. Just the broadcast codes for the bin.
I had to set it to read a Phillips 27C256. Then compared it to a bin I found on the net. To make sure I got a valid read.
The replacement EEproms should still be readily available. SST is just a brand I have had no problems with.
I also used the programmer recently to write to a bios chip on the motherboard I'm using right now. I had to update it through Asus's site and had a power outage half way through. I thought it was a brick. I pulled a same value chip from another older useless board. Wrote the bios to it, and it worked. With that I also had to play with the manufacture names till I got a read without errors. Once I got a good read, erased and wrote. I have found usable, removable EEproms on older video cards. Anything less than 10 years old is most likely to have a plgg type chip.
Now these are cheap programmers. I wouldn't use these on everyday bases. And they most likely won't take a lot of abuse. For occasional burning they work. They do a decent job of error checking. My brother mentors a robotics class and they used to use a real Willem. Of course cost a lot more, but in a day, they might burn 50 times. And also see a lot more reversed/misinstalled chips. They mostly use usb programmable processors now.
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quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:

yeah that programmer uses the same chip set as the one I have. You don't have to use an Eprom but an EEprom. Eproms have to be erased with UV. EEproms can be erased with the programmer. You can use a 512 in place of a 256 but you would have to play with the programmer to "stack" the bin. The PCM reads the last 256 area of the Eprom so you either have to have it write to the last 256 area (with blank data in the first 256 area) or double up the write to write the bin in the first half and the second half of the memory area.


If you buy the BURN2 from www.moates.net, it will come with software that will automatically set the addressing offsets for you when trying to program a 512 chip with programming that only uses a 256 chip size. No playing around "stacking" or trying to figure out what you have to do - the software does that for you.
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Report this Post12-24-2014 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK, so I was looking at the TunerCat OBD1 tuner kit, and it includes the software, programmer and adaptors, as well as an extra chip... considering I would only be using bits of it, is it worth dropping $250 on by the time it gets to my door? and then I would still have to spend another $100 on GMEPro (although I DID find a Fiero-only demo copy to download that I have tinkered with before) and binfiles... not sure if it's restricted or full featured as it won't load in Win7 even in compatibility mode, but I have it to mess with on one of my older systems for now... plus I would need an ALDL cable if I wanna do any datalogging...

also, since I finally got around to digging out the back of my car and attacking the engine bay a bit, I found that the nose of the engine is about 1.5" low, possibly an inch or so forward, and there's still no way I could fit an alternator in the stock position without cutting up the strut tower (the outer of the 2 tabs on the alt bracket is actually up inside of the brace between the strut tower and the dogbone mount by almost an inch)... any suggestions as to what I can do for an alternator setup? I also noticed that if I go with the standard AC location for the alt, I would have to totally change the pulley system because my idler and tensioner would be on the opposite side of the motor, and wouldn't even line up in such a way that I could still use them... the motor has no PS pump or AC as they have both been removed already... I'm just wondering if there's an easy fix or if I am gonna have to get fab creative...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Report this Post12-25-2014 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will be much much farther ahead if you just have Ryan Gick (aka Darth Fiero)(aka Sinister Performance) program your chip. It will work first time. You won't have to spend weeks trying to get it right. The cost to program one chip is less than the cost of the equipment to program the chip.

The electro-vacuum cruise control is a POS. Expect to have problems with vacuum solenoids leaking, rusted out vacuum cans ect. Use an electromechanical cruise from GM instead. The wiring diagrams for the AR cruise servo are posted on this forum. Splice the PCM speed output to both the dash and the cruise input.

Most locate the alternator low and rear.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-25-2014).]

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Report this Post12-25-2014 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
well, as far as the programming, Timm, you are right in that it would be easier just to get Ryan to do it, but I have at least 2 other projects, maybe 3 that will need tuning (or at least fine tuning once it's running) as I get them put together, and I have been interested in getting into OBD1 tuning anyways (one of my running projects in need of tuning is my 85 GT 2.8/Muncie with the HT3.4 crate engine cam in it, it will start and run as long as I manually tamper with the idle screw and the TPS to increase mixtures until it gets up to temp, and I wanna not only fix the starting and idling issues, but to fine tune the actual running as well... the other that I haven't started actually building yet is an 89 crewcab with a 400SBC that I'm putting under a slightly modified TBI setup)... I was actually looking into the Romulator kit a couple years back, but things didn't pan out then... and as far as I can tell, considering my motor is still stock for now, the only things I will need to mess with for this swap will be turning off the stuff I don't need or want, and fine tuning the speedo, so it shouldn't give me any issues, I would think...?

as for the cruise, I still have my 93 SSEi Bonne in storage, and I had no issues with the cruise in that car, it worked fine for as long as I drove the car... would it be worthwhile to use that or should I snag the factory cruise unit from my parts Fiero?


Alternator: so just basically move it straight down from where it sits factory on that motor? does someone make a mount setup for that or am I getting fab-happy?

I was actually going thru a build thread on the BC West Coast Fieros site last nite of a S1 build, and he had some pretty good ideas, including moving the alt to the AC location with a custom bracket, and moving the tensioner to the end of the front head on a plate and running the WP, SC, and Alt all on the one belt... looking at the routing, he actually got some pretty good wrap on all 4 pulleys, so as long as the tensioner is tight enough, a person shouldn't have any belt slippage issues with his setup...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-25-2014).]

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post12-25-2014 12:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anything that relies on rubber valves sealing vacuum after 30 years isn't reliable in my opinion, thus trash the old cruise and go with the 93. This is how I wire the digital cruise. It has two brake inputs - one normally hot that drops voltage with the brake applied, one normally off that gets voltage with the brake applied. The plus is that the system has two leads from the brake giving you redundancy in case something goes wrong.

https://dl.dropboxuserconte...l%20from%20Visio.pdf

I believe all the digital GM cruises wire differently. I see in my favorite junk yard that there are all kinds of labels on the GM digital cruises but all seem to wire identical. Not sure if the difference is the rate that throttle is applied but it can't be something too different.

I usually drop the wire that runs from the cruise to the PCM telling the PCM that the cruise is applied (pin J). Depending on how the PCM is programmed or not programmed it might cause problems. It works with the wire not hooked up. You could also use the cruise engaged signal to turn on a 'cruise' light on the dash.

If your PCM input was way off (ie you used the Fiero 4000 PPM vss and didn't program the PCM for it) you might have problems with getting the cruise to engage. It would engage at 6x the normal minimal engage speed.

The cruise to throttle cable will bayonet off of the cruise servo so if your cable isn't the right length or has the wrong end on it, go shopping at your local junk yard and find one that has exactly what you want.

btw, I have a Burn2 I bought second hand. I use it with TunerPro RT. I do have to figure the offsets manually however. Not a big deal once you figure it out.

With TunerPro RT, the .XDF file for your PCM and the Burn 2 programmer, an adapter if you want to read your existing PROM and an adapter so you can use your reprogrammed prom with your existing MEM/CAL that is all you need for programming. No need to purchase the software as far as I know. Not sure if the Moates or other software has additional programming options than TunerPro RT, but TunerPro RT seems to have it all for programming the 3800 PCMs.

btw, I sell both types of PROM - MEM/CAL adapters with ZIF sockets and the reader adapter

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121...id=p3984.m1561.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111...id=p3984.m1555.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121...id=p3984.m1555.l2649

And also the scanner cable in both 12 and 16 pin versions - if you have a 16 pin on your 94/95. Note the 16 pin is OBD1 only so it won't work on any PCM 96+

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111...id=p3984.m1555.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110...id=p3984.m1561.l2649

I'd fab the mount if I were you. Cheaper & you get exactly what you want.
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Report this Post12-25-2014 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hmmm, ok, good info...
and yah, I was thinking of running a cruise light where the shift light normally is (being as the 3800 PCM doesn't allow for a shift light in the programming, lol)... I even have the dummy light cluster from the 93 LeSabre that has a insert marked Cruise I can use over the bulb housing...

couple questions, with the burn2, Moates says it programs the 27sf512m, and will read the 27C256, but doesn't say anything about writing to it... will the burn2 write to the stock 27C256 chip or will I have to use the 512 chip?

also, I downloaded a copy of TunerPro RT and installed it, it fires up and appears to be working, but I can't seem to pull up any of the editing screens from the bin/efe files that came with the GMEPro Fiero edition that's floating around, and I know full well that those files work with GME, as I've tinkered with them before on one of my older XP systems... is there a trick to pulling the data from the binfiles, or do I need to find a copy of the XDF file for it to work?

also, I've been meaning to pick up a 12-pin ALDL cable from you when I had cash anyways (or I guess the universal one might be a better option, considering this will be for more than just one vehicle...?), so I might as well add the other parts in the same shipping box, lol

and as for the mount, yah, I can fab it, but that requires dragging the car a half-hour down the hiway to the shop at work and being able to leave it in there for a few days when I get time off, lol... I figured if someone had one I could buy, it would be more practial and almost cheaper than running my propane BBC dow n the hiway at about 4mpg, lol (especially considering that gas right now is almost the same price as propane, lol)... I will have to drag it anyways at some point if I have to fix the motor mounts to correct that angle, but I can work that part out later in the spring when it will be safe to drag a topless car down the hiway, lol

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-25-2014).]

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Report this Post12-26-2014 02:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe it won't write to the 27C256 chips. You would need to UV light to erase them and then they also need a higher voltage to write to them. That is why everyone uses the 27SF512 chip. They are electronically erasable, and by putting the data in the 2nd half of the chip (by using the offset) they are a direct replacement of the 27C256 chip.

Did you load the .xdf for your ECM in TunerPro? This is the file that defines where the data is on the chip. http://www.gearhead-efi.com...tid=972&d=1323212452 Also here are two .bin files that are the read of a chip from the 16141470 ECM. http://www.gearhead-efi.com...-ECM-Information-5B4

Get the 12 pin cable since it is easier to use than the universal, and since if you ever do come to do a swap on a 94/95 that has the 16 pin, you can just install the 12 pin instead and wire to it.

Here is a wiring spreadsheet I made for the PCM - https://dl.dropboxuserconte...eville%20S1%20SC.xls
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-26-2014 06:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok, that works... I wasn't sure if TunerPro was able to pull the info from a binfile or not...
and apparently that forum requires you to be a registered and activated member before you can download stuff, so I'm waiting for my approval, lol...

and as for the cable and parts, that works... as long as I can plug it into my 88 Suburban and my 89 R2500 crewcab (and possibly my 87 Z24 Cavi) and still pull data for logging from them (on top of the 3800 swap, of course, lol), I'm happy...
so do I let you put together a list of parts I need from you and just send me a paypal invoice or do you want me to go thru ebay or your website? I actually have cash right now, so I might as well get this looked after right away... and I'm tempted to order a new set of pins for the C500 at the same time, because the harness I pulled from my wrecked 86 SE had most of the wires pulled out of the pins in the engine side of that connector in the accident (or possibly I may have not disconnected it properly when I dropped the cradle out of it, I honestly don't know, lol), so I pretty much have to totally repin the C500... might as well start with a fresh set of pins as I can't get the old ones to open up the wire crimp tabs...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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Report this Post12-26-2014 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://dl.dropboxuserconte...u/2242747/%245B4.zip

If the pins were ripped out of the C500 connector then the inside of the connector is trashed.
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Report this Post12-26-2014 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lol, no, the pins stayed, but the wires didn't...
I've got the pins out now, but I just can't get the pinch tabs open to crimp new wires in... I was just gonna solder the wires when I put it back together, but when I saw you offer the pins new, I figured why mess around, lol

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-26-2014).]

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Report this Post12-26-2014 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ok, kool, so with those files you sent me, it works now... I understand how to turn things on and off, and I understand a good chunk of the settings, lol... now by looking at some of these settings in the different binfiles, I'm guessing these are files that have been modified...?
knowing that the code on my PCM case is different from any of what's in that list (mine is BCFL), would it matter which one I started with? I noticed that some of the values are somewhat out to lunch in some of the settings, are these files that you have programmed Timm?

either way, this is kool, I can go thru the settings and familiarize myself with the program and the files before the car is ready to attempt firing, thank you very much man

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-26-2014).]

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Report this Post12-26-2014 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those were all just off of the site.

Here is one I just read from an ECM I have here so it is for sure a clean read - but it is a NA

https://dl.dropboxuserconte...20H%20body%20L27.bin

Which would be the best to start from? A SC for sure. Go for one with the least amount of additional features that might cause problems - ie not a Buick but instead a Pontiac if possible. I have heard of ppl having problems with programming other PCMs where the PCM from a Buick needed to see the BCM but not on the Pontiac version. I am not sure if this might be a problem with the 16141470

One more thing you might want - to look up the 3 or 4 letter BCC code on the ECM. - https://dl.dropboxuserconte...C%20lookup%203.1.xls

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-26-2014).]

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Report this Post12-26-2014 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll have to find a way to try to send you a bin file. But I have wiped my hard drive twice since the first read. I may not still have the original BADA file.
I started with a memcal broadcast code AZNX and found it was for NA. Went digging through a pick and pull, and found a 1993 park av. ultra. It had the same PCM number and the memcal broadcast code was BADA. At one time had both written to a EEprom before having a chance to edit them. The AZNX would start, but ran like crap. The BADA wouldn't start. After editing VATS, the BADA ran great. Used that one for my base bin. I had found another bin on GMEFI web site and the only differences were minor.
The biggest headache I had was trying to get that big connector to sit inside next to the PCM and still have it fit under the consol. Still have a little rats nest. I really need to pull it all back out and tidy it up. For now it works with no check engine light or codes. I only have EGR solenoid 3 turned off. The temp light drove me nuts for a while, causing a quad driver error. Code 56.
The only things I had to change when I went from Series 1 to Series II were wiring to the MAF and I had to make an adapter for the older EGR. Everything else I was able to directly swap from the Series 1 engine.

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 12-26-2014).]

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Report this Post12-27-2014 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85red2m6:

[quote]
couple questions, with the burn2, Moates says it programs the 27sf512m, and will read the 27C256, but doesn't say anything about writing to it... will the burn2 write to the stock 27C256 chip or will I have to use the 512 chip?


The BURN2 chip programmer cannot program 27C256 EPROM chips, or any other EPROM chip that requires a UV lamp to erase. You would need to use either a 27SF512 flash memory chip or 29C256 EEPROM chip.

 
quote

also, I downloaded a copy of TunerPro RT and installed it, it fires up and appears to be working, but I can't seem to pull up any of the editing screens from the bin/efe files that came with the GMEPro Fiero edition that's floating around, and I know full well that those files work with GME, as I've tinkered with them before on one of my older XP systems... is there a trick to pulling the data from the binfiles, or do I need to find a copy of the XDF file for it to work?


You will need to download the proper .xdf file from www.tunerpro.net that is compatible with the .bin you are working with in order to use TunerPro to edit that .bin file. You will need the proper .adx file to get scan data from the ECM you are working with using TunerPro RT v5.

TunerCat is what I use to tune the vast majority of the stuff I work on. I do have TunerPro RT v5, but only really use it for logging scan data. I think TunerCat's UI is a easier to work with when editing .bin files than TunerPro's, but that's just my opinion. TunerCat does not have nor does it offer any sort of scanning/datalogging capability. It only edits the .bin files.

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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-27-2014 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks Timm, those numbers look a little more reasonable... at least it gives me a better idea of what a baseline should look like, lol...
and yup, found my code right away... doesn't help me too much right now other than knowing that it's programmed for 2.97 gears, but it will come in handy later when I get into programming later... and it's not just for the 3800's, so it will be useful further down the road too...

cmechmann, that sounds promising... being manual, I expect to have to do some fine tuning along the way, but getting a bin that will fire and run decently out of the box makes it a whole lot easier for sure... I will keep an eye out for that BADA file...
and I know exactly what you mean about that connector, lol... I was actually thinking of adjusting the grommet hole in the firewall and hard-mounting it in that hole so that pulling the harness is that much easier if and when I need to drop the cradle... gonna hold out for now tho, as this swap might end up transplanted into my other 85 GT for a while until I get the rust issues fixed and get the car to pass the Out Of Province inspection... at least that way I can still use it and work the bugs out of the tuning etc... the other option was to eliminate that C260 connector and just plug the pins together from either end and heat shrink each wire... will see how ugly it is to put the console back on after, lol


Ryan, yah, it won't program over the UV thing, but would it still work if I were to swipe a few chips from other stock PCM's and just used UV light to clear them first? not that those chips are really expensive, just a thought...
and as for TunerPro, the file links Timm posted worked, it gave me the XDF file for the bin I was trying to view and the other link I was able to DL the ADX file from, so at least I can view the info now... I just wasn't sure if there was some shortcut I didn't know about to be able to fiew the binfiles, lol... got it figured now...
this is gonna be a serious learning curve, but Iam gonna enjoy tinkering with things, lol...

and I have to agree with your opinion of the 2 different UI's... TP works, and the info is there, but the screen shots of TC look a lot more user-friendly and easier to find and work with... I may still buy a copy of it yet, will have to see how much tinkering I end up doing if it's worthwhile for me or not... I will also still buy a copy of GMEPro to go along with this (or register the free Fiero version I have) depending on if I run into issues like Timm mentioned the other day...

one other question I will ask, since I am thinking about it right now, I am seriously thinking of picking up a pulley or 2 for this motor from PulleyBoys (so far, they are the only ones I have found still offereing undersize pulleys for the M62, and very reasonable priced too), since you guys have all been doing the 3800 swaps for so long, how far can I drop on the S1 before it requires PCM tweaking and/or supporting mods? I know their site recommends the 2.2 pulley for the 92/93 motors, and projected at 10-11lbs boost, but nowhere do they discuss any recommended mods for each pulley size, lol...

oh, and if I've got my laptop hooked in via ALDL cable (and presumably TunerPro runing datalogging), will it show up if there's KR on the screen? and on the S1, is there a gauge or monitor of some kind that I can get that will be able to monitor the KR like the OBD2 scangauges do?

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post12-27-2014 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
TunerPro RT shows both Knock Count and Knock Retard

You can see them numerically on TunerPro RT's screen, or you can go to TunerPro RT's dash screen and see them as a gauge. If you wanted you could use an android device along with ALDLdroid and show it as on the device.
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85red2m6
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Report this Post12-27-2014 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85red2m6Click Here to Email 85red2m6Send a Private Message to 85red2m6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
just doing up my order from Moates, before I close it off and check out, is there anything else I will need from him for all this?
he offers an Innovate G3 standalone AFR gauge that's under $100, but it doesn't say anything about if it comes with the O2 sensor or not... ?

------------------
1986 Fiero SE 2.8 Auto - Blackie
1985 Fiero GT 2.8 4-spd - Goldie II - To be driveable this season
1985 Fiero GT Convertible - 3.8SC 4-spd - long term project
1987 Cavalier Z24 2.8 5-spd - daily driver - 300k miles and still goin
1993 Bonneville SSEi - 3800SC parts/wiring donor for 85 Vert

[This message has been edited by 85red2m6 (edited 12-27-2014).]

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