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Bare Bones 3800 SC Swap by newcoolcat
Started on: 12-12-2014 12:57 PM
Replies: 22 (1685 views)
Last post by: rennoc442 on 01-11-2015 09:45 AM
newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-12-2014 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With this years Christmas bonus being better than I expected I thought I'd try to make this dream come true. I don't want to invest any more than I need to on this swap. I just want the 3800 in the car and functional. When my wife is done with nursing school I want to pull it back out and really invest some money into it. BUT, for the time being, I just want to be able to drive my Fiero again.

The car is an 88 GT 5-Speed and the motor is a 3800 SC II from a Buick Park Avenue. Before I dive into this I just want to make sure I have all of my ducks in a row (which I don't, so help me!)

So here's the list of things (that I know of) that are required to make this happen:

- Lower Motor Mount
- Balanced Fly Wheel
- Wire Harness & PCM
- Fuel Pump
- Low Mount Alternator Bracket
- Dogbone

The things I'm not so sure about:

- Keep the AC or Install the Idler pulley (I'm not sure if keeping the AC is any more expensive or hard, other than getting the hose modified)
- T-Stat housing (not sure what to buy or if I need to buy it)
- Oil Filter adapter (also not entirely sure if I'll need this)
- Throttle cable bracket (I think i've seen that you can modify the cable to fit the stock bracket)
- Exhaust (I just have no idea what the easiest/cheapest route here is)

I've done a few searches, and AutoMarshal's is probably the build I'll be referencing the most but I'd like to see a few more that detailed.

Unless there's someone else I missed, Fierorog is the guy I can get most of the things I need from.

I work at 2 fab companies, so if someone has a drawing or CAD file, I would love to fabricate some of my own parts.

I'm slapping some new gaskets on the 3800 this weekend and I'm hoping to start buying everything I'll need Monday.

Thanks in advance for the abundance of help I'll need

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Report this Post12-12-2014 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alt does not need to be moved but it does make things easier and cleaner, stock 3800 T stat housing works just fine, oil filter adapter from a GP or regal 3800 NA or SC will work fine as well, the V6 throttle cable can be used just need to modify 3800 bracket slightly and drill one hole in 3800 throttle linkage.
Exhaust is best built right on the car. My suggestion is invest in a decent mig welder and learn how to use it that way you make all your own parts and still have a good mig when finished. Wiring wise if you have the time get to know the diagrams well and build your own making it nice and neat and clean. For the needed flywheel see fierorog on here and go with a good SPEC stage 3 or 3+ clutch.

------------------


DARN Cars now open with
Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics technician in both Canadian Air Force and civilian aviation.
Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars.
Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.

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Riddick85
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Report this Post12-12-2014 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Riddick85Send a Private Message to Riddick85Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For the thermostat housing you can do what I just did: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/134173.html

Also you need the tensioner assembly from a grand prix since the buick one will stick out toward the firewall too far (I bought a park ave engine too).

The coil packs also need to be moved since they will hit the decklid hinge. Many possibilities on location.

If you need a specific pictures let me know my 3800 is still on my stand for about another week before it goes in. I have fierorog mounts too so you can see the fitment

Edit to add: If you have the squared off aluminum oil pan that came on some park ave's you will probably have to change that to the steel one, I did.

[This message has been edited by Riddick85 (edited 12-12-2014).]

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hercimer01
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Report this Post12-13-2014 02:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newcoolcat:

so if someone has a drawing or CAD file, I would love to fabricate some of my own parts.



Me too!

I have a parts list in my thread, you can't miss it.

------------------
Project Genisis Lo Budget 3800SC swap
12.840@104.8 MPH Intense-Racing 1.9 rockers, 3" exhaust, 3.4 pulley, ZZP tune and 18 year old tires.

88 Coupe under construction SOLD

88 formula 3.4L 4t60 swap SOLD

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-13-2014 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:


Me too!

I have a parts list in my thread, you can't miss it.



I noticed you left the Alternator alone. Did you have to notch the deck lid at all?

[This message has been edited by newcoolcat (edited 12-13-2014).]

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Jfrost
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Report this Post12-13-2014 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JfrostSend a Private Message to JfrostEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good luck on the build.

I have a lot of pictures and details on what I've done on my swap so far. Use the link in my signature for the full build thread, it's on a local forum. I also have a build in the General section here that has a little bit less details but a lot of pictures, that's how I learn best.

------------------
Project L67 Fiero

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-13-2014 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here we go!






these were already on the car when I got it








no throttle body. I haven't looked at the price, but I may get the north star TB if it's not too much more
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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-13-2014 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just looked at a n* throttle body kit. Too expensive at this time. My dad has a 3800 series 1 n/a. Would that throttle body work?
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ericjon262
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Report this Post12-14-2014 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
series 1 tb probably won't work, you should be a able to find a series 2 tb easily at just about any junkyard though.
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Report this Post12-14-2014 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keeping AC is NOT more expensive, and you will probably wish you had kept it if you don't . You do Not need to move the Alt, just notch the deck lid a little. change the oil filter adapter. the 1 circle on the left is where the Power steering Pump was, (I kept the power steering also). I kept the stock throttle body, I don't see where the extra Cost is worth changing it. the linkage(Stock) works fine. I WOULD "suggest" that you use the Engine/Trans MOUNTS that mount your assembly at 4 corners, not 3. (engine has a mount on Each Side, not just the 1 in the middle).
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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-14-2014 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So my engine didn't come with the ac compressor or the ignition coils. Will any l67 ac compressor work? I'm hoping to pick one up at a junk yard this week
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Report this Post12-14-2014 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used the 98 GTP alternator and moved it down and mounted it using a bolt on the pivot point and two pieces stacked of 1"X1/4" aluminum bar stock for the upper mounting point. I never intended for that to be permanent, I just haven't gotten around to finishing up details like that yet. I didn't want to notch the deck lid because I want my install to look factory stock and clean. You could leave it on top and not have to notch the decklid if you use low mount motor mounts.

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 12-14-2014).]

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-15-2014 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I'm going with the lower mount on the Alternator. Is there any reason to keep the flex plate bolts?
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Report this Post12-16-2014 08:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1MohrFieroSend a Private Message to 1MohrFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great thread! I like the way you are using pictures and questions. Keep it going.



Thanks,
Dwayne

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Report this Post12-16-2014 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought 87 with a 3800 conversion. The PO installed the alternator down low causing a problem. When it rained the alt would get wet and the belt would slip and discharge. This may have caused the alt to deteriorate. The car did not have ANY splash shields on it. It now has some 87 splash shields modified to work with the 88 cradle. That took care of that problem. You may want to think about changing the oil filter location. I can not install the longer filter as the 88 suspension is in the way. If you mount your coil packs on the firewall you will not be able to use stock length spark plug wires. Really study the path your exhaust is going to take. It may cause you to loose your trunk. PO on my car managed to run the exhaust and save the trunk. BUT he placed it to close to the trunk and I did a lot of heat shielding to keep the heat down to hot. Plan it so that you can use the factory exhaust hangers for your pipes.
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Report this Post12-17-2014 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


There's the C203 & C500. I'm shipping them to Fieroflyer so he can get strated on the wire harness.

Is there anything else I'll need from the Fiero's harness?
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darkhorizon
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Report this Post12-17-2014 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Im lazy, and a cheapskate, but I build things to the spec durability and servicability being the number one priority.

-Lower Motor Mount

This can be done a few ways. If you make up a motor mount that grabs both the front and the rear of the motor and runs to the front and rear cradle rails, you can make a much simpler "lower mount" via the mount under the "ac compressor", and eliminate the need for a complicated dogbone with a mount running to the rear cradle rail.

If you dont have a cheap welder, borrow or buy one and learn some new skills!

- Balanced Fly Wheel
- Wire Harness & PCM

Wiring harnesses are easy to do yourself, in a few hours time. The "vendor" harnesses that have been around the last few years are all very well done from what I see so if you have the money and are lazy its not a bad way to go.

- Fuel Pump
- Low Mount Alternator Bracket

This typically is a good idea to put the alternator in place of the power steering as it makes for easy routing of the belt. It can be done without a bracket usually with some hardware store bits.

- Dogbone

potentially eliminated with a lower rear mount.

The things I'm not so sure about:

- Keep the AC or Install the Idler pulley (I'm not sure if keeping the AC is any more expensive or hard, other than getting the hose modified)

AC hose modifications are not that complicated.

- T-Stat housing (not sure what to buy or if I need to buy it)

Stock 3800 housing works great. To fill coolant it requires that you slip the hose off, but the many con's of a modded fill neck are not worth avoiding 1 worm clamp.

- Oil Filter adapter (also not entirely sure if I'll need this)

Most all of the oil filter adapters work, some interfere with "vendor" lower motor mounts.

- Throttle cable bracket (I think i've seen that you can modify the cable to fit the stock bracket)

a 4cyl cable works as is, a V6 cable can be easily modified with a new cable end.

- Exhaust (I just have no idea what the easiest/cheapest route here is)

Nothing is really cheap or easy here. You need custom work, I usually suggest that ebay "4 piece" headers are the best place to start, along with a modified trunk and a large high flow muffler. Use the welder you bought here and save youreslf alot of headache and money!

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-19-2014 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So this came in:





Now I have to remove the alignment pins.

Is the .840-.810 measurement just the meat of the flywheel? No stand offs or anything else included? RIght now the "meat" of it measures .940"

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post12-21-2014 07:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


.833" thick now within .0005"

I also went to the junkyard to grab some things that were missing off of my engine when I bought it:



Fuel pump came in yesterday too (EP376):



I also took the engine apart yesterday:







Junk / reuse pile:



I also removed the exhaust from the cradle:




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Report this Post01-02-2015 06:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Spoilt_87fieroSend a Private Message to Spoilt_87fieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Really enjoying this thread! Can't wait to see more.
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Report this Post01-02-2015 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newcoolcat:
The things I'm not so sure about:


- Exhaust (I just have no idea what the easiest/cheapest route here is)




here's a picture of my exhaust before it was installed. The PO did the swap and exhaust so other than knowing the muffler is a spintek, and the tips were Hot Tips (which I've replaced with C5 tips) can't help with the rest. but it does leave the trunk intact and looks pretty simple.




------------------
1986 Fiero GT fastback SC3800 3.4 pulley, LS1 TB
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee with "big boy" 5.9 motor
1986 Honda Goldwing SEi 1200 fuel injected

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newcoolcat
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Report this Post01-10-2015 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newcoolcatClick Here to visit newcoolcat's HomePageClick Here to Email newcoolcatSend a Private Message to newcoolcatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


So I was going to put the engine back together today when I noticed this nice size chip in the crank timing gear. I found a metal chunk in the oil pan and now I think I know where it came from.
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rennoc442
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Report this Post01-11-2015 09:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rennoc442Send a Private Message to rennoc442Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm subscribing! Also doing a 3800 sc swap on my 88 so this will be helpful.
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