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86 2.4L suddenly no longer starts... by Twilight Fenrir
Started on: 12-09-2014 07:14 PM
Replies: 36 (434 views)
Last post by: jmbishop on 01-06-2015 07:46 PM
Twilight Fenrir
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Report this Post12-09-2014 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello,

I've got an '86 2.5L with a 5spd. I was pulling into my garage last night, and didn't quite give it enough gas and it stalled. I cranked on the starter for a bit, but it wouldn't fire up again... So, I put it in first, and used my starter to nudge myself in the last foot so I could close the door, and figured I'd check back in the morning. See if it would start then.

No such luck.

Someone else conveniently had the same problem over on this thread which I read: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/134228.html Where I learned to look at the tach... Unlike the other poster, my tach doesn't budge when I crank. But, I've got a 2.5L, not a 6 cyl, so I don't have the same ignition system he does. And, I'm really not sure where to start diagnosing on this one. I'm about to start looking through my service manual, but I'd really like to have a car running ASAP, so I'm posting here at the same time. Wherever I get the answer from first ^^;

Just been a rough day... Fiero wouldn't start, truck had a dead battery. Got truck started after an hour, made it to work... truck won't start when I go to leave work... blargh!

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 12-09-2014).]

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Neils88
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Report this Post12-09-2014 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When you say 2.4L do you actually mean 2.5L Iron Duke or did you have a swap done?
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Report this Post12-09-2014 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Neils88:

When you say 2.4L do you actually mean 2.5L Iron Duke or did you have a swap done?



Ah crap, I mean 2.5L... It's been a while since I've had to ask about my fiero, I forgot XD I'll edit that...
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Gall757
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Report this Post12-09-2014 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
actually, the 86 Iron duke has the same ignition system as the V6.....so all that advice applies. 87 and 88 Iron dukes are different.
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Twilight Fenrir
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Report this Post12-09-2014 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

actually, the 86 Iron duke has the same ignition system as the V6.....so all that advice applies. 87 and 88 Iron dukes are different.


Are they? o.o I thought the V6 had packs, vs a distributor...

So then, I need to look at the ICM, pickup coil, and the wiring there-to? I replaced most/all of the ignition system over the last couple years... not sure what's left to fail... not sure where/what a pickup coil is... I thought it just had the distributor, and the ignition coil...
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Report this Post12-09-2014 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Twilight Fenrir

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Would the pickup coil, and ICM be interchangable with an '84 2.5L? I have an '84 sitting in my yard I could scavenge from for the season..
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Report this Post12-09-2014 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the whole distributor assembly is interchangeable.
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Twilight Fenrir
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Report this Post12-09-2014 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would assume so... but, thought I'd better ask :P

Pickup coil reads out fine, per service manual guidelines.

Where is the Ignition Control Module? I can't find mention of it in my manual... Unless it's the part the two connecters attach to on the distributor?
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Report this Post12-09-2014 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes. It's the thing everything plugs into. If you replace it, make sure to use the heat-sink paste on the bottom. The screws need to be clean and tight because they ground the ICM.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 12-09-2014).]

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Report this Post12-09-2014 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And this is what gives the Tach its readings? Sort of a built in dwell tach? No hal effect sensor on the cam, or crankshaft position sensor? Seems simple enough X3

Seems like an odd thing to just up and fail in the space of 10 seconds though... Especially on a day when there is absolutely no way it overheated... (From Northern Minnesota, and it is very much winter here :P)

I really should go out and tear it out of my '84 and try to cram it in there to see if I can go to work tomorrow... but, it's black out, and getting chilly... So... laziness and calling in sick is winning tonight, I think >_> <_<

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 12-09-2014).]

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sardonyx247
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Report this Post12-10-2014 06:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just have to ask, could it be out of gas?
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Report this Post12-10-2014 07:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Check gas and that the fuel pump is turning on when you put the key in run position (fuel pump should run for a few seconds to prime)... also make sure the rockers are moving when you are cranking. If all of these are good, swap the ignition module out. I had one just die when pulling into the driveway.... it happens. I have also had the timing gear go while driving and a fuel pump on another fiero.
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Report this Post12-10-2014 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can hear my fuel pump running, that was the first thing I listened for. And I've definitely got fuel coming out of the TBI, My bit of cranking made it really smell like gas in my garage.

I checked all my fuses right away, too, for the record :P

I'll head out and swap ICM in a little bit... Will touch back after I do. Doesn't look like it will take long to do.

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 12-10-2014).]

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Report this Post12-10-2014 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Remove tack filter first.
Then Check all grounds and wiring.
See my Cave, HE Ignition

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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Report this Post12-10-2014 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Remove tack filter first.
Then Check all grounds and wiring.
See my Cave, HE Ignition




Where is it? o.o

EDIT: Nevermind, found it in the service manual. Looks like it's on the firewall. I'm heading out now to start tinkering.

I read the cave, and all threads with 'tach filter' on the forum... But, I'm not 100% clear on it.

Are you suggesting permanent removal, as it may have been what killed my ICM? Or will removing it possibly restore my vehicle to functioning order without having to replace the ICM?

I haven't had any tach issues before my car just went kaput...

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 12-10-2014).]

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Report this Post12-10-2014 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alrighty, second exploratory surgery complete...

Found, and unplugged tach filter, no change. Took appart all connections on the distributor, and the ignition coil, cleaned, reassembled. no dice. Stuck a timing light on one of my plug wires just to make sure I'm chasing the right issue, no light, so no spark. Definitely on the right path. Also, the rotor points in a different direction after cranking, so my distributor shaft IS turning (thank god).

I'm virtually certain my ignition coil is good, I changed it either last year, or the year before with a good one. Distributor cap, and rotor look good. The pickup coil read 750 resistance, which is between the 500 and 1500 the service manual says is 'good'. And it's not grounded out.

So.... unless there's another part of the system I'm not familiar with... (Possible, I had never heard of an ICM before XD) I'm gonna put money on it being the Ignition Control Module. Unless there are any other suggestions?

Also, my '84 has a COMPLETELY different distributor than my '86. Not sure if it was replaced by someone else, or if it just shipped differently. But there's only one big connector on my '84, and two small connectors on my '86. It's also clocked VERY differently. I'm not willing to do all the splicing to make the one I've got work, so I'll try to get another one ordered.

Also-also, for anyone who may be looking for it in the future, the Tach Filter is right on top of the engine, next to the thermostat housing. There's a connector leading to it that's easily unplugged.
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Report this Post12-10-2014 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Take the ignition module out and down to parts store. They can test it.
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Report this Post12-10-2014 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Take the ignition module out and down to parts store. They can test it.


Can't ^^; I can get parts in, but I can't leave my house... my Fiero is down, and my truck is dead at work X_X And, I'm 20 miles from the nearest part store... walking/riding my bike when it's barely above zero isn't the most appetizing prospect XD
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Report this Post12-10-2014 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
84 module is different... hmmm... call a friend... take you to the parts store with old module. Or just order one in and take a chance.


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Report this Post12-10-2014 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

84 module is different... hmmm... call a friend... take you to the parts store with old module. Or just order one in and take a chance.



Yeah it is... I can take a picture if you'd like... I'm not sure, don't know much of the history of that car though. Bought it purely because it had T-tops, and I paid less for it than I would for the roof section alone :P

I don't have any ^^; I'm something of a hermit :P

Yeah, that's a chance I'll have to take... I don't know what else it could be. All the wires are still wrapped up in their little protective black plastic thingies, and there hasn't been anything in the bay to tousle them up, so I'm doubting there's a broken wire. Plus, they're all on top of the engine. All the other components test out... it's GOT to be that.. *crosses fingers*
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Report this Post12-10-2014 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Twilight Fenrir:

Yeah it is... I can take a picture if you'd like...


I'm interested.
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Report this Post12-10-2014 03:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FYI, the 84 does have a different distributor and ICM than the other years.
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Report this Post12-10-2014 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No picture needed, the 84 is different, so you can't use that module.


 
quote
Originally posted by Twilight Fenrir:


Yeah it is... I can take a picture if you'd like... I'm not sure, don't know much of the history of that car though. Bought it purely because it had T-tops, and I paid less for it than I would for the roof section alone :P

I don't have any ^^; I'm something of a hermit :P

Yeah, that's a chance I'll have to take... I don't know what else it could be. All the wires are still wrapped up in their little protective black plastic thingies, and there hasn't been anything in the bay to tousle them up, so I'm doubting there's a broken wire. Plus, they're all on top of the engine. All the other components test out... it's GOT to be that.. *crosses fingers*


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Report this Post12-10-2014 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

FYI, the 84 does have a different distributor and ICM than the other years.


I should have known...........seems like everything is a little different on '84s....
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Report this Post12-11-2014 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:


I should have known...........seems like everything is a little different on '84s....


Yeah, seems like GM scraped it together out of whatever they had laying 'round :P
also....

I HAVE A CAR AGAIN!

ICM did it! Come to think of it, it's the only part of the ignition system I never replaced... never knew it was a thing *shrugs*

It's good to have a car back.

Thanks for the help!
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Report this Post12-11-2014 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You put a coat of heat sink compound on the bottom of the icm, correct?

Glad you got it running.
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Report this Post12-24-2014 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

You put a coat of heat sink compound on the bottom of the icm, correct?

Glad you got it running.


Did what now? o.o

haha, just kidding, of course I did :P


Buuut... last night, my tach suddenly started working, despite that connecter being undone... I had a bad feeling.... and sure enough, car won't start again X_X I must have a ground out somewhere in that circuit... what a pain X_X
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Report this Post12-25-2014 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does the pick up coil look like it is falling apart?
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Report this Post12-26-2014 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Does the pick up coil look like it is falling apart?


Nope... And I checked it with my multimeter... it checks out, according to the service manual diagnostic procedure.
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Report this Post01-02-2015 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well... this project just keeps getting more, and more interesting...

Re-tested my pickup coil, and it failed this time, so i bought and installed a replacement. Hooked up my timing light to my battery to check for spark... and nothing.... absolutely nothing. The LCD display on my light wouldn't even come on, my battery was stone-dead. Fancy digital battery charger didn't even recognize that it was hooked up to a battery it was so dead.


So, I went and got my big old analog charger, connected it and it started charging... but I kept hearing electrical crackling noises. And soon enough I saw sparks.

Right next to the terminal block by the battery, there's a metal loop where all the engine wires pass through attached to the engine block. It had cut into about a 12ga orange wire, and probably through an 18ga lavender wire as well... Wrapped with electrical tape, and stuffed them into a length of heater hose, then back into the metal clamp. Hopefully this is the culprit for this whole fiasco.

Got the car to start and run for a bit, but one of the holes the distributor cap screws into is stripped, so I'll have to pull the distributor again, tap the hole a bit bigger, and replace the screw on the cap. Cram it back in there, and time it again. Hopefully that will be everything, and I'll be set...

The #1 Cyl is the one on the pulley-side of the engine, right?

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 01-02-2015).]

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Report this Post01-03-2015 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And... now I'm flummoxed...

Got everything back together fine. Got spark on all 4 cyl. It fires while cranking the key, but it won't start.

I paid attention to the direction the rotor was pointing when I took the distributor out, and got it back in the exact same place. Re-clocking the distributor makes it fire a bit more or less depending on where it's set, but it will never take off. Fiddling with the throttle has the same results, will make it fire more/faster, but it still won't run on it's own.

When I had it barely running before the system set a Code 33, but it was missing something fierce. Disconnected the battery and let the ECM clear the codes thinking it might be compensating still, and no change. Disconnected the MAP sensor (code 33 is high-voltage to MAP)and D/cing it is supposed to set to default) still no dice.

Checked all fuses, the fuel pump IS running, took out air-filter just to be sure it wasn't air.

Not sure what to do now... any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 01-03-2015).]

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Report this Post01-04-2015 10:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's so easy to get that distributor messed up, I would review the timing and plug wires again after a good night's sleep.
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Report this Post01-04-2015 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

It's so easy to get that distributor messed up, I would review the timing and plug wires again after a good night's sleep.


I never pulled the plug wires off, so I'm certain that's set right. And I took pictures before I pulled my distributor, and lined it all up with the picture afterwards...

I'm starting to think my Coolant Temperature Sensor is blown again... I go through one of these things every year about this time, for some reason... The only thing that keeps me from jumping to the parts store for one... is the timing seems reeaallly unlikely.

That being said, I tried to stick my multimeter to the two terminals... and got infinite resistance... so... maybe that IS the problem, but I'm not 100% sure I was getting good contact. It's -20F outside today, though... I would think the default -40F would be close enough for it to start...
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Report this Post01-04-2015 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Twilight Fenrir:

I'm starting to think my Coolant Temperature Sensor is blown again... I go through one of these things every year about this time, for some reason...


Whereas most of the rest of us are probably still running the original factory sensor. Maybe you've got some serious electrical problems with that car.
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Report this Post01-05-2015 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alright, so, let's say I made a mistake putting my distributor back in, and I mis-clocked the rotor somehow. I'm very doubtful of this idea, but let's say...

Can I rotate the plug wires on the distributor, (IE, unplug each wire, and move them all over one terminal clockwise) try, rotate again, try, etc? Or will this damage the engine? Would it still be firing, as it is, if mis-clocked?

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 01-05-2015).]

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Report this Post01-06-2015 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Twilight FenrirSend a Private Message to Twilight FenrirEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It started o.o

I don't know what changed... In desperation I just sat there and cranked, and cranked, and cranked... and lo and behold, it started o.o The throttle ran up pretty high right away, but it smoothed out after a little bit. Somewhat standard after the battery has been unplugged...

I got it timed perfectly... So... we'll see if it still starts tomorrow.

It might have been flooded, I suppose... but I had held it in WOT until it stopped firing a few days ago, and it wouldn't start after that either... I dunno... Maybe there was some water/ice in there keeping enough fuel from going in, and it finally cleared...

I'll worry about it when it's not -20F outside :P Assuming it still starts tomorrow.
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Report this Post01-06-2015 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopClick Here to Email jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wrong thread

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 01-06-2015).]

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