I own a 87 GT 5speed 90,000 miles, original motor and tranny. A while ago I noticed the clutch was slipping so I took it to a shop to have it replaced. They put a replacement Exedy clutch in and after 100 miles of driving the clutch pedal felt like it hit a brick going only half way to the floor. So the shop took it back and after removing the tranny they could see the clutch fork had over rotated somehow and kinda jumped the throwout bearing. Basically the fork arms were resting on the top of the bearing instead of under the wing tabs. So I ordered a new fork and the shop got another new clutch hoping either could correct the issue. Once again it happened (the fork jumped the throw out bearing). The shop spend days trying to figure out what was going on (including spending hours on here looking for solutions) The attachment arm that bolts on the clutch fork outside the trans. case was not bent, and could only go on one way. So this time I ordered a new slave and master cylinder from Rodney Dickman and his bleeder kit, the shop ordered a Centerforce clutch and another clutch fork. They made sure the clutch pedal was not bent at all, made sure the adjustable banjo on the master cylinder was in the correct position, bled the clutch with the rear driver side of the car in the air and bled for 5 minutes past no air. The car drove great for 50 miles. So tonight thinking all was fixed I had an alignment done. Pulled it off the rack and put it in 1st gear and pop the clutch goes half way to the floor and feels like its on a brick once again. This problem has me wondering what in the world is going on to cause this and now makes me fear driving my car even after its working again. Does anyone have any idea what's going on. The shop is very reputable and it known for being great but even they are confused and simply don't know what else to do. The only parts that they have not replaced are the flywheel, and the clutch fork bushing. Both looked good according to the shop. If anyone has any tips or clues or suggestions please do so. Thank you very much!

What dose the shaft that the bearing rides on look like ? No groves on it
Bearing has to ride snug on it or will tilt and cause all types of problums
.

The shop said they checked it and it looked fine.
Here are a few pics. The first is before it was cleaned. Don't know if they help any.[url=]before cleaning[/url]
[url=]after cleaning[/url]

They are probably using the wrong throwout bearing/clutch fork combination. Probably the Isuzu and Getrag parts in some combination.

I agree ^ that last pic looks like the forks are wider than the bearing. I know my clutch combination for Advance Auto had the wrong bearing and bought the right one from Fiero Store.

[This message has been edited by LornesGT (edited 12-03-2014).]

quote Originally posted by fierofool: They are probably using the wrong throwout bearing/clutch fork combination.

Either that, or they installed the wrong pressure plate, and it's allowing the bearing and fork to overextend.
But probably the wrong bearing or fork, as fierofool said.

In all the years I've been messing with Fieros (since '97?) this is the first time that I've ever heard of this happening.

Edit - Did they try comparing the old throwout bearing to the new one?

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-03-2014).]

These pictures were taken without the throwout bearing im sorry. Anyone have a picture of the proper throwout bearing. The shop used a new one from the parts store but ill have to ask to see if it was similar to the original. They did wonder why there was no clip that held the fork arms or fingers on the throwout bearing.

This would be the correct throwout bearing for a Getrag transmission. http://www.fierostore.com/P...spx?s=54144&d=79&p=2

i also looked at TFS clutch forks and I see a discrepancy in their supposed Getrag release fork information. It lists the fork as for the 85-88 V6, when in fact the 85 and early 86 V6 used one style and the late 86 and later V6 used a different style. I wasn't aware that the 88 used a different style, so maybe they're referring to the late 86-88 production years as the Second Design.

If the throwout bearing has spring clips on it, then it's for an Isuzu trans. This thread describes how to identify the different transmissions. Right now the pics won't open for me so I don't know if the release fork area is shown, or not.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/063783.html

Can anyone explain what functionality differences there are between style 1 and style 2 clutch forks?
Style 1: http://www.fierostore.com/P...0%20%20%20%20%208688
Style 2:http://www.fierostore.com/Product/Detail.aspx?s=54030%20%20%20%20%201988

Is it possibly enough of a difference to cause this issue?
Is the Isuzu throwout bearing thicker. The one the shop used on my car did not use a clip and looks identical to the one pictured in the fiero store.

I cannot......

I cannot explain the price either. It seems that you could find a bad transmission with a good fork for half that price.

Is there any solution like some sorta clip or tie that can hold the throwout bearing to the clutch for arms. Kinda like the other fieros have. This is crazy that 3 clutches, a special master and slave cylinder, new throwout bearings later we still have the same issue. What could we be possibly be over looking. The throwout looks exactly like the one that is sopost to go in and we've used 2 different new ones, the clutch fork looks exactly the same 2nd one we've used, 3 new clutches one being a centerforce. The flywheel is in spec. What could be allowing that clutch fork to over rotate or travel like this? This is very frustrating to say the least. Thanks for everyone's help so far.

The TOB for that transmission should have tabs both in front of the fingers and behind to capture it.
No clips or springs.
I did get a clutch one time that had a different TOB. turned out they shipped the wrong one in the kit.
I''ve done 6 clutch swaps on those over the years with no issues.
The fingers look OK , the bearing sleeve looks good and as long as the shaft bearings are OK the arm should not be the problem.
Is there pic of the TOB you are using?
That could help us out.

Once they get it apart I'll snap a picture of the TOB. Its identical to the one the fiero store sells. They were kinda shocked the centerforce clutch didn't come with one buth the 2 previous kits did. Same one but times, same as the one in there now, same as the original one. How much back and forth play should the clutch fork have installed but outta the car on the ground. It does move that direction as well as rotating. But it's very smooth.

[This message has been edited by CKDrums (edited 12-04-2014).]

I have been using LUK clutch assemblies for many years. It seems that irregardless the brand and parts stores, there is some incorrect information regarding the hydraulics and the clutch assemblies.

I've found that if I want the correct clutch assembly for an 86 4-speed, I must order one for an 85 V6. If I want the correct assembly for an 86 5-speed V6, I must order it for an 87 V6. The reason is that 86 was a changeover year utilizing all transmissions available to the Fiero.

Something you and your shop should know is that the throwout bearings are specific to the transmission and it's release fork. The bearings aren't interchangeable and can't be modified to work on the other transmissions. The 4-speed trans bearing has flat spots on the shoulder and slides up into the fork. Those flat spots keep the rear piece from rotating. The others have spring clips on the Isuzu and you already know what the Getrag bearing looks like. It should be obvious if you have the correct bearing for the fork. I do believe that the forks can actually be interchanged, though, so now that you've had the forks replaced, they may be the wrong fork for the bearing you have in hand.

Not sure if this is relevant but I got a clutch assembly for my 5-speed Getrag and everything fit and worked great - BUT - the throwout bearing was the incorrect one. It was completely round, no tabs, no way it could work. Sachs brand clutch kit. I had to order a separate throwout bearing. Rockauto was nice about it and sent me one for free.

Seems like there's some serious packaging problems with these clutch kits.

Oh and while you have the transmission out, inspect the input shaft bearing sleeve, right at the base. They tend to crack and break off. Mine was cracked about 1/3 the way around. Rodney sells an excellent kit if yours is cracked, the factory style bearings are no longer available.

[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 12-04-2014).]

The first time the clutch was changed (original reason for this whole thing) only a new clutch kit was put in. The old fork still remained in and the throwout bearing came off the fork afterwards. Odd thing is the throwout bearing that came with that clutch kit clearly fit and I was able to drive the car for 50 miles. Only after this happened did they start buying all the other parts (Rodney Dickman slave, master)

I think I'm gonna pick up another transmission and let the shop give it a try. I have these three to pick from I know the far left one I don't think I'm interested in but I was told the middle and right ones are 5 speed Getrags. I'm confused because of the large mounts still bolted on them. These are privately owned but I'm told they are around 100k and are 100% good. Any help with identification of there home cars would be great or any other tips. [URL=http://s8.photobucket.com/user/BLow nSub/media/Mobile%20Uploads/01212_i6Z1JoXRaly_600x450.jpg.html][/URL]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CKDrums:

I think I'm gonna pick up another transmission and let the shop give it a try. I have these three to pick from I know the far left one I don't think I'm interested in but I was told the middle and right ones are 5 speed Getrags. I'm confused because of the large mounts still bolted on them.

All are from FWD cars. Corsica etc. All look to be Getrags. In the top picture the one on the left has a reluctance speedo meter wheel and would need the Dakoa digital speedometer adapter. The 2 on the right are gear driven speedometers and need no speedo adapter. Your speedo wire will plug right in. All will need my FWD conversion kit. The cast release lever will need to be changed to your cast lever. The FWD lever is too short. All the mounts on them are removed. You reuse your Fiero brackets etc.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

An yet, still no picture of the TOB you were using?

I have an 84 with 2.5 and 4 speed that has been doing fine since I bought it 3 years ago. A few days ago, it developed the same problem. Clutch goes down about halfway and feels like it hits a solid stop.

Sorry no TOB picture yet. The shop has not taken my car back apart yet. In the first picture you can see it in the top left. Thanks for all your info about those transmissions.

quote Originally posted by CKDrums: Has anyone ever compared a throwout bearing from The Fiero Store to a normal parts store one for the 87 GT getrag?

I'm sure they are the exact same thing. They get what is available in the aftermarket the same as what any customer can get from any parts supplier. Napa, Auto Zone, Rock Auto etc.

I tend to think changing the trans is not the answer but what else can you do? Maybe make sure you absolutely have the correct throw out bearing, pressure plate and clutch disc. Maybe post some pictures.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Be careful here...the getrag TO bearing is different than the Isuzu TO bearing.

The getrag has 2 solid "ears" sticking out on each end. The Isuzu has 2 "ears" but they are made
with a wire style mounting.

Make sure you have the right TO bearing for the application.

As a reference, take a look at the fiero store web-site as you can see the difference from the photo in the clutch
section.

------------------

fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. Beechwood interior, All original.

Just dropped the transmission out again. I took lots of pictures. The first is of the bell housing immediately after removing to show you the location of the clutch fork to the TOB. The shop seems to thinks it's gotta be a problem within the new parts (TOB) mostly.[URL=http://s8.photobucket.com/user/BLownSub/media/Mobile %20Uploads/20141220_113153.jpg.html][/URL]
[IMG]http://i8.photobucket .com/albums/a18/BLownSub/Mobile%20Uploads/20141220_112806-1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a18/BLownSub/Mobile%20Uploads/20141220_113002.jpg[ /IMG]
These next two pics show you how much this TOB can rotate on the fork. Its not snug at all (Not sure if it's sopost to be)[URL=http://s8.photobucket.com/user/BLownSub/media/Mobile%20U ploads/20141220_112502-2.jpg.html][/URL]

[This message has been edited by CKDrums (edited 12-20-2014).]

The throwout bearing has moved behind the forks? There are flat places on each side of the bearing behind those large flanges. Then behind that are two small tabs that stand out and help to keep the bearing from floating against the pressure plate. If the bearing is rotating, then the forks aren't close enough together. There should only be a small amount of rotation in the bearing. It should fit snugly but not tight. Here are a couple of pictures of the bearing. The bearing dimension that I have is 2.668 inches.

From the pics I would say something isn't right with the TOB. If you get that much rotation it will pop off one arm and spin off the other.

Do you have both bushings on the shift fork? There is one where the fork goes in and one at the bottom where the end sits. Also, where it goes in,..in the pics, the case looks cracked, is it?

Yes there is a bushings in both ends. You can move the fork back and forth a bit but when everything's back on the car and ready to go it doesn't move. I wish I still had the original TOB to compare. I'm gonna have them mic this TOB to compare (by the way thank you for that picture). Does anyone remember how snug the TOB should sit on the fork. I don't wanna mask the problem but could just bending the clutch fork arms in a bit possible fix this? I have 2nd new fork as well. Yes That is a crack you see and we dove into that being the problem but the shop owner (tech. as well) said he's pretty positive there is no effect from that.

If the slave is reaching the end of it's throw, on a properly bled system the clutch pedal will feel like it is hitting a brick.

How far does the slave pushrod push back the slave cylinder? If less than 1 1/4" that is on the start of finding your problem. If that was the case the first thing I would try is a longer pushrod. Shoot for 1 1/4 or slightly more movement from full extension of the slave cylinder.

The problem could be a bent fork throw out fork, or bent slave cylinder throw out fork. The slave fork could have slipped on the pivot shaft. The slave might not be positioned as stock. The pushrod might be short for some unknown reason.

With the engine and transmission out of the car it will be difficult to determine how far the slave pushes the slave piston up the cylinder at rest. Put the clutch transmission engine together and try to measure carefully.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-21-2014).]

quote Originally posted by CKDrums: . Does anyone remember how snug the TOB should sit on the fork.

It should fit snugly but not need to be forced. The space between the ends of the fork should be less than half the distance of the flat surface and the round surface of the bearing. My bearing measures 2.685, a difference of .017. The spread of the forks should be not more than 2.6765 and the forks should be parallel and not have a wider spread at the tip than at the base.

These dimensions are from an NSK bearing, but all bearings should measure very close to that, regardless the brand.

Can you tell us if the bearing did move behind the forks as shown in the first picture? If it did that would definitely mean that the spread of the forks is too wide.

And can you post a picture of your slave and pushrod with a measurement of the length of the rod?

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 12-21-2014).]

What dimensions do you have between the forks? I think you should check those against a known good one.

I think it may be possible that when the bearing contacted the first clutch disk that was installed, it spun the part of the bearing that should be stationary, spreading the forks. Now that he's corrected the disk problem and has a new bearing, there is too wide a gap in the forks to keep the new bearing from spinning as a whole unit.

Yes after this happends everytime when they remove the transmission the fork arms are resting on top of the TOB. I don't have a mic here but I took some basic measurements. The distance between the inner fork arms remains the same from tip to base. The measurement I took was 2.75 inches (ruler measurement not a mic) from inner fork to inner fork. With the TOB on the fork there looks to be a 1/8th inch gap from TOB side to 1 inner fork arm. My TOB is the exact same as pictured in fierofools post except I have a P stamped in the place of what looks like a G on his. I'm using a Rodney Dickman Slave and Master cylinder. 2 of the 3 times this happened I have been able to drive my car for 50-100 miles then randomly the TOB will come off the clutch fork. Keep in mind the fist time this problem happened was after only the clutch and TOB were replaced (not the clutch fork yet) That's when we changed the fork out. I only took the car in to get the slightly slipping clutch replaced in the begining (not this problem). I also purchased Rodney Dickmans bleed system and had the drivers rear of the car in the air when it was bleed. And once it was bleed they continued to bleed to make sure no air was in the lines. And yes the clutch when bleeding goes to the floor.

By your numbers, the forks are too far apart. They are wider than the outer diameter of the bearing. They should be narrower than the largest diameter of the bearing. I'd bet that if you put the bearing into the transmission, you can force the shell of the bearing to rotate between the forks. Once the tabs are vertical, it can slip behind the forks.

quote Originally posted by fierofool: By your numbers, the forks are too far apart. They are wider than the outer diameter of the bearing. They should be narrower than the largest diameter of the bearing. I'd bet that if you put the bearing into the transmission, you can force the shell of the bearing to rotate between the forks. Once the tabs are vertical, it can slip behind the forks.

I'm confused? If the diameter of the TOB needs to be larger then the distamce between the fork gap the TOB could not fit in the fork. Also this problem occured before we even swapped out the clutch fork. It happened the fist time with the original fork in that we later realized actually was not the problem.