7yrs ago my 1988 2.8L stopped running. It would start fine, but as soon a the key returned from “start” to “on” it died. It acted just like a car with a bad ignition ballast resistor. A ballast resistor is inline with with the power circuit to the the coil. When the resistor fails, there is no power to the coil and the car won't run. However, there is a bypass wire that goes directly to the coil from the start circuit to aid in starting. So a car with a bad ignition ballast resistor can start and run as long as the starter is engaged, but when the key returns the bypass wire is turned off and the power that should be going to the coil never gets past the bad resistor and and the car dies. Just like my car.
So the first thing I did was look around the engine compartment for something “resistorish”. Failing that, I checked the schematic, it showed no ignition ballast resistor, no bypass wire.
So I started looking for and asking about something that “acts like a bad ballast resistor but isn't” and never found it.
Is the reason I never found anything that “acts like a bad ballast resistor but isn't” because it never existed? Was my initial diagnosis correct? Was I on a wild goose chase for 7 years because of a bad wiring diagram? A last minuite addition that never got documented because funding stopped when the Fiero plug was pulled? A practical joke?
If you can tell me where a ballast resistor is located in my car I will be forever in your debt. -Paul
Originally posted by tesmith66: That's for the big coil in cap HEI distributors, not the small cap external coil ones.
Ahh.... looks just like it. But the cap & coil look nothing like the one on my car. And why do both Rock Auto and Auto Zone list it as a “Ignition Ballast Resistor” for a presumably stock 2.8L?
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
Originally posted by Patrick: Okay, I'm confused now. What's this got to do with the 2.8 in a Fiero?
Absolutely nothing.
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Originally posted by Paul.S:
Ahh.... looks just like it. But the cap & coil look nothing like the one on my car. And why do both Rock Auto and Auto Zone list it as a “Ignition Ballast Resistor” for a presumably stock 2.8L?
Parts reference error. It has nothing to do with the Fiero, but some of the other car applications that had the 2.8 also had a SBC that used this part. Like the 82+ Camaro it had a 2.8 and SBC's, so the part likely got assigned to the 2.8 incorrectly, then since the Fiero had a 2.8 is was cross-referenced to it as well. Rock Auto is really bad about this type of thing with parts listed under applications they don't work for.
Ballast Resistors were used in the pre 80's applications with points ignition. Most coils in the 80's and newer don't use a ballast resistor.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-21-2014).]
Originally posted by fieroguru: Parts reference error. It has nothing to do with the Fiero, but some of the other car applications that had the 2.8 also had a SBC that used this part. Like the 82+ Camaro it had a 2.8 and SBC's, so the part likely got assigned to the 2.8 incorrectly, then since the Fiero had a 2.8 is was cross-referenced to it as well. Rock Auto is really bad about this type of thing with parts listed under applications they don't work for.
That makes sense, but is it a ballast resistor or a rotor bushing?
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Ballast Resistors were used in the pre 80's applications with points ignition. Most coils in the 80's and newer don't use a ballast resistor.
My 85 Jaguar XJ6 has electronic ignition and a flakey ballast resistor, but my hopes of having found an easy $5 fix for a tough problem are starting to fade...... -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
Check your starter solenoid. There should be 2 small terminals on it with two separate wires. One is the trigger to cut the starter on and the other goes on the other side and makes it run....If both are on the same it only works on trigger mode...
Originally posted by Paul.S:That makes sense, but is it a ballast resistor or a rotor bushing?
It is not a ballast resistor. Its merely an electrical contact that transmits current from the stationary coil to the spinning rotor in the distributor. Almost every distributor cap has one, but most are not removable.
Balast resistors are normally ceramic, have 2 electrical connections (input and output) and are installed between the 12V source and the coil, not the coil and the rotor.
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Originally posted by Paul.S:
My 85 Jaguar XJ6 has electronic ignition and a flakey ballast resistor, but my hopes of having found an easy $5 fix for a tough problem are starting to fade...... -Paul
Ballast resistors were phased out because they were not as reliable as newer tech. Some mfg's were quicker than others to adapt the newer ignition system design. I don't think Jaguar has a reputation for leading the way on automotive electrical systems and electrical reliability, so it doesn't surprise me that they held on to ballast resistors into the mid 80's.
"1988 2.8L stopped running. It would start fine, but as soon a the key returned from “start” to “on” it died"
sounds like the ignition switch to me !
Thanks for the tip! I had assumed that the switch used the same electrical contact for start and run, but it doesn't have to be that way. If it is, it could be a mechanical problem that only comes into play in run mode. And it will be easy to test! -Paul
Let's look at a different area. Instead of spark, let's look at the fuel side of the run process. Before tearing into the column, have someone crank the car while another sprays brake or carburetor cleaner into the throttle body. See if it continues to run as long as there's 'fuel' being sprayed into the intake. If it does, then the fuel circuit is faulty. Obviously it isn't the fuel pump if it will fire off on it's own, but won't continue running. The pump has to run in order to prime the system for start. At switch ON, the ECM pressurizes the fuel system then turns off. This initial prime is why the engine fires then stalls. As soon as that prime charge runs out, it quits.
Look to the ignition control module. If the fuel pump circuit to the ECM is bad, you will get the effect you're experiencing because the pump is out of the circuit until the ECM sees a spark signal from the module. The spark may be there but the signal isn't being communicated to the ECM. Twice I've encountered a bad connection on the ICM harness. The little barb that holds the wire in place in the harness had become weak and when installing, apparently the male terminal on the ICM didn't perfectly line up with the female terminal in the harness. It pushed the terminal and it's wire back part way out of the harness plug and lost contact. Unplug the 4-wire harness to the ICM and look at the end. All 4 terminals should be flush with the end of the plug. If either is recessed, that may be the cause.
We found this to be the case on one of our local guy's 88GT, but in his case it only took 4 years to find it.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 11-22-2014).]
Originally posted by fieroguru: It is not a ballast resistor. Its merely an electrical contact that transmits current from the stationary coil to the spinning rotor in the distributor. Almost every distributor cap has one, but most are not removable.
After seeing the distributor cap drawing above, it is real easy to believe that.
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Ballast resistors are normally ceramic, have 2 electrical connections (input and output)
As are most of the ones I have seen. The jag has an oddball and I don't know what others might look like, and I am still trying to hold on to the hope that fixing my Fiero might be as easy as replacing a ballast resistor!
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and are installed between the 12V source and the coil,
from the Rock Auto/Auto Zone picture/description, I couldn't tell where it went.
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not the coil and the rotor.
It would not help a car start when placed there.
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Ballast resistors were phased out because they were not as reliable as newer tech. Some mfg's were quicker than others to adapt the newer ignition system design.
so it doesn't surprise me that they held on to ballast resistors into the mid 80's.
Jags are and odd mix of archaic and state-of-the-art-for-the-time technology....... and now that I think about it, the XJ6 series III (1979–92) was designed in the 70s
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I don't think Jaguar has a reputation for leading the way on automotive electrical systems and electrical reliability
Tell me about it. Ever heard of Lucas?
Many, if not most series III Jags have had the ballast resistor bypassed. Mine would be as well, but I want to catch that damned thing in the act so I can be sure that it is the culprit in the Dies-in-the-middle-of-trafic, Dead-till-it's-stone-cold problem.
I thank you for your input, even if it is not what I wanted to hear. -Paul
[This message has been edited by Paul.S (edited 11-22-2014).]
Bad tach filter will cause problems for HEI. Is why you should remove filter as first step. Iffy ground will cause problems too. See my Cave, HE Ignition
Yes, above part is not used in V6 or L4.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Let's look at a different area. Instead of spark, let's look at the fuel side of the run process. At switch ON, the ECM pressurizes the fuel system then turns off. This initial prime is why the engine fires then stalls. As soon as that prime charge runs out, it quits.
I thought about that, but the car would start as soon as it turned over, like there was no lag for pressure to build up, and die the instant the starter disengaged, not a moment or 2 later when the pressure bled down. Does the fuel pressure go up and down quicker than I was thinking?
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Look to the ignition control module.
Now that you mention it, the plastic part of the ICM connector inside the distributor is eroded and it and the 2 ICM terminals on the in side are covered in greasy, bright green, corrosion looking goo (what IS that stuff?). I thought that was something that happened while it was in storage, but maybe it has been there all along.
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The little barb that holds the wire in place in the harness had become weak and when installing, apparently the male terminal on the ICM didn't perfectly line up with the female terminal in the harness. It pushed the terminal and it's wire back part way out of the harness plug and lost contact. Unplug the 4-wire harness to the ICM and look at the end. All 4 terminals should be flush with the end of the plug. If either is recessed, that may be the cause.
I will be looking at it as soon as I post this!
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We found this to be the case on one of our local guy's 88GT, but in his case it only took 4 years to find it.
Good to know that someone else was stymied like this, I feel better all ready!
Many thanks, -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
Unplug the 4-wire harness to the ICM and look at the end. All 4 terminals should be flush with the end of the plug. If either is recessed, that may be the cause
Mine looks like new, and I don't know if I feel good or bad about that. Could it be the in side terminal connections or the ICM its self?
I was planning on replacing the whole dodgy looking distributor, ICM included, as part of bringing it out of 7 yrs of storage and to eliminate it as a possible source of difficulties when debugging the original problem. Perhaps it is the problem?
olejoedad said the fuel problem you describe could be caused by the ECM (or did he say ECM wiring as well? I can't remember exactly).
On to the next step. Thanks, -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
Yes, the fuel pump circuit may be bad. You probably know by now that you should carry an extra ICM with you, so the new one goes in and if that doesn't solve the problem, just keep the old one in the trunk as a spare. The old one can be tested at the parts store, but they need to put a load on it 3 to 5 times in order to fully check it.
Also check the wires coming off the pickup coil. Sometimes they get pinched by the cap at the back of the distributor. Twisting them can make them shorter to keep them out of the way. Though I would think that if they're pinched and shorted, you would have no spark at all. Be sure to pick up some white heat sink grease at Radio Shack or an electronics store and use it instead of that clear stuff that comes with the ICM.
I had a distributor where the orange terminal on the two wires had completely crumbled apart. I slid some heat shrink over the terminal ends, shrunk it down and drove it for many years.
The Arctic Silver is even better than the white stuff.
Try the brake or carb cleaner then you'll know if it's getting continuous spark after the switch goes back to the Run position. If so, then look at the distributor components, especially the ICM. If the pickup coil is putting out a signal during Start, then it would also be putting out a signal at Run so you're back to the ICM or ignition switch circuit.
I had a distributor where the orange terminal on the two wires had completely crumbled apart. I slid some heat shrink over the terminal ends, shrunk it down and drove it for many years.
Hmmmm... I think that would work for me. I didn't clean very much because I didn't want to damage what was left of the plastic connector, but why did I care? It didn't have a latch so it didn't do anything more than your mod would do.
I was going to just replace the whole distributor, but if the cause of the problem might be in there I want to go though it with a fine tooth comb. I don't want the car to just start right up without knowing what the problem is. I'd always be wondering if it just went away temporarily and will come back and strand me in a parking lot as unsure as I am now. Thanks, -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
If you end up breaking the clip apart, just be sure the green wire is plugged onto the module terminal closest to the shaft and the white wire is toward the outside edge of the module. If your wires are both the same color, they connect to the module parallel to the way they come out of the pickup coil.
I'm not discounting bigal's check, either. I'm just looking at the things that are a little easier to get at first.
Check your starter solenoid. There should be 2 small terminals on it with two separate wires. One is the trigger to cut the starter on and the other goes on the other side and makes it run....If both are on the same it only works on trigger mode...
I'm not sure what you are saying. The schematic shows a pull in winding and a hold in winding. Are you talking about those?
The schematic shows the 2 windings and 2 wires all connected to the same terminal. Are you saying the wiring is different than the schematic? Should be different? Thanks, -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
I'm not sure what you are saying. The schematic shows a pull in winding and a hold in winding. Are you talking about those?
The schematic shows the 2 windings and 2 wires all connected to the same terminal. Are you saying the wiring is different than the schematic? Should be different? Thanks, -Paul
The terminal with the large battery cable (13mm nut), also has the chassis power wires on it. The other wire is Purple and is the solenoid wire to start/stop the starter (only sees 12V during engine crank mode) - it has its own small terminal (10mm or smaller nut). The size of the eyelet ends of the wires should help make it obvious what terminal it should go to (if they are stock), but its worth a check.
I'm not sure what you are saying. The schematic shows a pull in winding and a hold in winding. Are you talking about those?
The schematic shows the 2 windings and 2 wires all connected to the same terminal. Are you saying the wiring is different than the schematic? Should be different? Thanks, -Paul
Some cars have starters with solenoids that have the one large battery terminal, and two smaller terminals on them. If you had a car like this and your starter was miswired it could be a problem. However as noted the Fiero only has the one large Red battery cable, and the smaller Purple solenoid wire. Thus this is not the root cause of your problem.
So it is still doing this thing eh? Fires while cranking but doesn't fire when you release the key? Can you videotape it and post it?
I kind of wonder if the ECM is losing power when the key is released.
That little contact button in the first post may be a resistor of sorts, rather than to have resistor plug wires there is just one resistor in the cap for them all. Regardless, that has nothing to do with your issue.
replace the ign switch and report back, Cheap and relatively easy
That's what I'd do too. Then it still probably wouldn't work. Is there anyone close by that can help him out? 7 years has to be some kind of record! Poor guy, this sucks.
After sitting for 7 years, there might be a couple of other issues that have popped up just because the car has been sitting for so long, so you might fix the initial issue, but still have a car that won't run. Not going to be a fun process to get it back running.
So it is still doing this thing eh? Fires while cranking but doesn't fire when you release the key?
Actually, I wish it was.
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Originally posted by fieroguru:
After sitting for 7 years, there might be a couple of other issues that have popped up just because the car has been sitting for so long, so you might fix the initial issue, but still have a car that won't run.
You got it. The fuel pump is dead, the distributor is questionable, and who knows what else. Where exactly is that heating ballast resistor that mice like to nest in?
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Not going to be a fun process to get it back running.
If the car was otherwise working, I would just have it towed to the Tuffy shop around the corner and have them drop the tank, but I don't want them blindly poking around the other problems and throwing new parts at it to see if it gets better.
My first choice would be to take it to a shop that was qualified to debug the other problems, and have them drop the tank, get it cleaned and coated, check the fuel gauge sending unit, replace the pump. ect..
Anyone know of a good shop for a Fiero within towing distance of Grand Rapids Michigan? Thanks, -Paul
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula 25k miles, garaged since 1988
