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New clutch in my fresh 4.9 swap will not disengage by Meanspiritdave
Started on: 10-22-2014 11:05 AM
Replies: 49 (837 views)
Last post by: Meanspiritdave on 11-11-2014 02:27 PM
Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been slowly but surely building my first swap. The car is an '86 GT with the Muncie 4 speed. We have installed a '92 4.9 utilizing a flywheel from LSC, and the 84-86 4spd 9.75" HD Clutch Kit from the Fiero store. Everything went together perfectly. The motor is running great. Now the clutch will not disengage. We have bled the slave cylinder (which is a stock unit), changed the angle of the clutch arm lever and adjusted the cables. Despite the clutch pedal feeling better (more resistance now) and the shifter being able to shift with the motor off, the shifter refuses to go into gear with the motor running. This newbie is wide open to suggestions. Thanks in advance!
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-22-2014 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If everything is to spec then check for movement at the slave cylinder when the clutch pedal is pressed. If the clutch hydraulic system has any air in it, the clutch will not disengage.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The rod in the slave cylinder does travel about an inch and it does move the clutch lever.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 12:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also, we have bled the system quite a bit. However we have not tried the gravity method.
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n7vrz
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Report this Post10-22-2014 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for n7vrzClick Here to Email n7vrzSend a Private Message to n7vrzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Was the clutch installed facing the right way?
(Don't ask how I know this one.)
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I hope so. But seriously is it possible to put in backwards??
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post10-22-2014 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Meanspiritdave:

The rod in the slave cylinder does travel about an inch and it does move the clutch lever.


Which transmission?
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 04:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its the Muncie 4 speed
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-22-2014 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As with the 3800SC swaps, I believe that the flywheel must be machined to a thickness of .82-.84" for the clutch to function. How thick is your flywheel. You may be able to make some kind of measurement from where the inspection cover is. You should also be able to insert a feeler gauge between the pressure plate and flywheel when the clutch is depressed. What is the plate to flywheel clearance? Do you have any clearance? If not, something is installed or adjusted incorrectly.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 10-22-2014).]

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will check with the guys to see if they have a gauge. As far as the flywheel itself I got it from LSC in California. It's specifically made for this swap, so I can only assume its accurate. I'll reach out to LSC to confirm.
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Report this Post10-22-2014 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You need more then 1" travel at the slave. The 4 speed and isuzu hydraulic setup both travel about 1.25" to fully disengage.

The Getrag is slightly less then 1". I've run all three trans with my 4.9 swap. The 4 speed is the best with the exception of gas mileage. Also double check that the clutch pedal is not bent slightly. Its hard to see but the "U" shaped piece that hangs off the side can be twisted and reduce your travel just enough. I also used a LSC flywheel with both the 4 speed and getrag.

You're almost there! Keep working at it.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-22-2014).]

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Report this Post10-22-2014 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used an LSC flywheel with mine. Worked fine.
Of course, I have a completely different tranny setup. Just betting that the flywheel is not an issue.

I would highly recommend a gravity bleed.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-22-2014 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks everyone. I decided to take the night off, I needed a break. We'll hit it tomorrow. Going to start at the front and work our way back and check all the basics. I will definitely let you know how it goes.
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Report this Post10-22-2014 11:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had to change the rod in my slave cylinder to get my clutch to work. I was still using the same stock tranny, but had to add an extra inch to the rod. I just cut a piece of stainless steel rod with the same diameter as the original, making it an inch longer, and then rounded both ends. Make sure your slave cylinder isn't leaking and is bled properly. Should get 1 1/8" - 1 1/4" travel. I had to replace my slave cylinder (get one from Rodney Dickman). My clutch works perfectly now.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-23-2014 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update: We installed a new slave cylinder and bled the system with interesting results. The clutch pedal is roughly 1" lower than the brake pedal and it's as hard as a rock to push. Pushing on the pedal results in the slave cylinder rod moving about a half inch. It doesn't even engage the cup of the clutch lever. My guess is that the problem is either the master clutch cylinder and/or the clutch pedal itself. Ideas? Pull the pedal assembly? Pull the master cylinder?
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Report this Post10-23-2014 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It starts 1" lower than the brake pedal? If so you have something bent or broken under the dash.

Hard as a rock right at the top? Your slave cylinder is fully extended and can't move out any further.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-23-2014 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, even before touching the pedal it sits about an inch lower than the brake pedal and it's as hard as a rock from the top. When the clutch pedal is pushed the slave cylinder rod moves roughly a half inch toward the trans barely even touching the cup on the lever arm. Make sense?
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Report this Post10-24-2014 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The pedal may be bent like this one.....



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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-24-2014 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's what we are going to check next. The pedal itself. Is there a good step by step available on how to remove the assembly?
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-24-2014 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found a good step by step on Archies site.

[This message has been edited by Meanspiritdave (edited 10-24-2014).]

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-28-2014 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The pedal is out and it is a mess! I have ordered a new one from the Fiero store, should be here tomorrow.
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Report this Post10-28-2014 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You may still need to lengthen your slave cylinder rod once you get the rest of the system up and running. I had some stainless steel rods out of some old printers that happened to be the same diameter. I had to add about 1" to the length.

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-29-2014 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm attempting to link a picture of the old pedal here...



I'd say it's pretty bent up.

[This message has been edited by Meanspiritdave (edited 10-29-2014).]

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Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post10-29-2014 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That will buff right out!

Seriously though. Been there and it sucks. Be careful with the new one. Don't press the pedal if the slave rod is out. It will bend again. Good luck on the fix and save the old one. Straighten it and toss it on a shelf for an emergency.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-29-2014 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the new pedal. Boy oh boy, what a difference!

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-30-2014 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Frustrating update: New pedal is in. Bled the system and everything looks good. We went to start the car and test it...it won't start. We have power, dash lights come on, turn the key all the way and...nothing. Is there something under the dash that we may have missed???
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Report this Post10-30-2014 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Could be the ignition interlock switch.
Normally you would have to have the clutch depressed in order to start the car.
Is the wire harness plugged into the switch? That may cause the problem.
Or is the switch mis-aligned?
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post10-30-2014 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good question. I know its plugged in but I'm not sure if it's installed or aligned properly. Is there a good picture somewhere showing how it should be installed?
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Report this Post11-01-2014 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Try this...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122687.html

And here is a cutaway...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/123269.html

If they are not completely broken they are easy to repair. I have one I put back together after the snap ring for the rod, well, snapped. Safety wire works just fine.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-01-2014).]

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Report this Post11-03-2014 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds to me like your clutch switch is the starting problem. You could just splice the 2 wires at least temporarily and test it. I dont know why GM didnt weld a gusset or plate on the front or back of the clutch pedal assby. It would never bend then. Might be a good idea to do before you install it. Just a square piece of metal welded to all 3 sides would be a permanent fix.
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post11-03-2014 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks guys! I had a crazy busy weekend, but I did manage to remove the switch, take it apart, clean it up and reassemble it. Didn't have time to put it back in the car yet. Will try it tonight. Question, should the interior of the switch be greased?
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Report this Post11-03-2014 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No grease. It self adjusts on the first plung. I bypassed mine. I automatically depress my clutch anyway.

what I found to be really helpful was Rodney's adjustable banjo. With that I was able to adjust the pedal so
the slightest clutch pedal movement causes the slave plunger to move. I used a broom rod to actuate the
pedal while I watched the slave.

Arn

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post11-03-2014 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good news and bad news. The good news is the starting issue was due to the clutch safety switch. After installing it and adjusting it, the car fired right up. The bad news is we still cant get the shifter to get into gear while the car is running. ARGH!
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post11-04-2014 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Last night we had a light bulb moment and thought we'd check the size difference of the old slave rod to the new one. Uhm, wow! The old one is nearly twice as long. So now we will be kinda starting over with aligning the lever arm. We'll use the old rod with the new slave and see what happens.

[This message has been edited by Meanspiritdave (edited 11-04-2014).]

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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post11-04-2014 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update. With the longer rod in the new slave cylinder, I installed it after rotating the clutch lever arm to be basically straight up. It was a tight fit, but I got it all bolted down. The distance the arm traveled now was just about 7/8". We then followed the Fiero Service Manual and adjusted the shift cables. Once this was finished it shifted like a dream without the engine running. But the real test was to start it up and try it. Well, with the car running we got reverse with a little grinding and we got 2nd, but thats it. We're thinking that the arm still just isn't traveling enough. ???

[This message has been edited by Meanspiritdave (edited 11-04-2014).]

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post11-05-2014 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The adjustment of the connectors at the transmission is tricky. There is one that has a slotted hole. You have to move it until you find the sweet spot.

It is best done with somebody to help

Arn
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Meanspiritdave
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Report this Post11-05-2014 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MeanspiritdaveClick Here to Email MeanspiritdaveSend a Private Message to MeanspiritdaveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Stupid question: which part exactly has the slot?
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Report this Post11-05-2014 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 4 speed car alway grinded a little when putting it in low or reverse. As a habit, i just put it in 2nd first, then 1st or rev. It had new engine and clutch and did it since new. Drove it just fine for years/100K like that.
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Neils88
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Report this Post11-05-2014 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I skimmed through the thread again and didn't see any mention of a new slave cylinder. If you are still only getting 7/8" travel then you may still have air in the system, and that isn't enough to allow smooth engagement into every gear. If that is the original slave cylinder it is likely time to replace it. Get the Rodney Dickman slave cylinder since it has a double seal. The slave cylinder tends to let air into the system rather than letting hydraulic fluid out. Also, there shouldn't be any play in the slave cylinder rod. If there is, then the rod may still not be long enough.
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Report this Post11-05-2014 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A little grinding into reverse in normal in all fiero trans. They do not have synchros for reverse.

Which new slave did you get? Normally only the Getrag slave has the shorter rod. It also has a shorter travel of about 7/8". Just want to be sure you didn't end up with the wrong one by mistake.
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