This discussion board is about cold hard tech. So you have to expect that you'll be challenged to provide evidence if you make a claim about a Fiero specification that isn't documented and that isn't supported in published OEM documentation. You also have to expect criticism if you can't or won't provide the data upon which you base your observation.
It may well be that there are different sized bars but the scientifically-minded will not be inclined to believe it as anything more than an opinion unless supported by evidence. Jaskispyder may speak for himself in his posts, however I suspect there are many more of us like him who want to see the numbers. Given the nature of the claim, a table with VIN numbers matched to actual measurements of each front sway bar diameter would be enough. To be statistically significant, a sample size of 30 measurements of each body style (notchback and fastback) would be needed. The measurements would have to be taken from the same location on the bar, and the bar would have to be unpainted and un-rusted in the area where the measurement is taken. 1/32nd of an inch may well fall within the margin of manufacturing error.
On another note, I'm curious to know exactly what part number is being referring to here:
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247: ok here is good example 350 blocks same part number 4 bolt main 2 bolt main enough said
Again, it's not enough to state "enough said" when you haven't said enough. What GM part number?
I suppose he has had many of them over the years...I have read accounts of quite a few of them. If you sell your Lambo....do you want to leave the site?
Specs on the front bar I have from a 1984 SE is .915 in pretty much anywhere I measure between the two frame mounting points on both the horizontal and the vertical plane
So you're saying that unless you actually own a Fiero at this moment, you shouldn't be posting on this forum? No matter what your history or background knowledge is?
So you're saying that unless you actually own a Fiero at this moment, you shouldn't be posting on this forum? No matter what your history or background knowledge is?
So you have to expect that you'll be challenged to provide evidence if you make a claim about a Fiero specification that isn't documented and that isn't supported in published OEM documentation. You also have to expect criticism if you can't or won't provide the data upon which you base your observation.
Blooz, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, info that the sway bars can be two different sizes is nothing new. I saw this for myself four or five years ago, and then at the time discovered others here at the forum to whom this was old news.
It's quite easy to see with the sway bars side by side.
Originally posted by Lambo nut: Thought that was pretty clear. Kevin
It is now. And so is your ignorance. Do you suppose any of the engineers, technicians, production line workers and/or other GM employees formerly involved in the Fiero's fabrication still own Fieros? According to your opinion, unless they currently do, they should have no voice here either. How do you think your opinion of exclusivity betters this site?
(Edited to add Lambo Nut's quote)
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 10-17-2014).]
Pretty ironic... nice avatar, which Fiero model is that exactly? Thanks for the laugh!
1984 Pontiac Fiero SE with a Lambo body on it. No different than any other on here that has done body add ons, engine switches, interior changes, and anything similar to what Archie did with the chop tops.
What does your Fiero based anything look like at the moment? Just curious.
Blooz, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, info that the sway bars can be two different sizes is nothing new. I saw this for myself four or five years ago, and then at the time discovered others here at the forum to whom this was old news.
It's quite easy to see with the sway bars side by side.
Yeah, I am guessing that Pontiac used different suppliers at different times (parts would still be within specs). It wouldn't surprise me that there may have been running changes even (to account for variations). However, with that said, GM doesn't show different part numbers based on body style and if it was important, they would have listed it so the dealers could order the proper replacement part. Anyone here have an idea of how they built Fieros (did they build specific models at the same time)? I can see where a case of differently sized parts can end up on a series of cars, based on who supplied the parts. But away, as we get more data, more will come to light.
BTW, I have an older 22P book at home ('84-'87) and I will have to check that out to see if they listed out different part numbers and then switched to one in the '88 version of 22P. The online is an '84-88 version.
Originally posted by Patrick: Blooz, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, info that the sway bars can be two different sizes is nothing new. I saw this for myself four or five years ago, and then at the time discovered others here at the forum to whom this was old news. It's quite easy to see with the sway bars side by side.
I don't argue that Sardonyx's theory is possible. For what it's worth, I just measured my '84 (notchie, of course) at 0.910", my '85 notchie at 0.904", and my '86 fastback at 0.860" which seems to corroborate his observation. That doesn't make what he said about notchies and fastbacks any more convincing though. An equally possible scenario is that the diameters changed sometime in '85 or '86 as a result in different suppliers (as others have mentioned) and have nothing to do with body style. Every alloy has different properties so a thicker bar also doesn't necessarily mean a stiffer bar either. As I mentioned earlier, enough people would have to chime in with their measurements and their VIN's to see if the change coincided with a point in time or body style.
I am 48, I have owned many different vehicles and worked on every one and knew them inside and out. Have built houses and garages, repair electronics, and I have a vast knowledge of many objects on this earth, the list goes on and on.
Let me ask you a question. Would you suggest I go find and join EVERY website I can find pertaining to all the things I know plenty about and could most likely add to the discussions and join? Just because I would know a lot about any given subject, I should go find those places on the internet to hang out even though I no longer have any of those items/vehicles/tools, etc? Sorry man, I have a wife and three kids, and I just don't have the time for that. It's called a life.
Now that's twisted logic. You not wanting to join every possible website you could contribute to has nothing to do with excluding those from websites that know everything about a subject but simply don't own the object being discussed.
1984 Pontiac Fiero SE with a Lambo body on it. No different than any other on here that has done body add ons, engine switches, interior changes, and anything similar to what Archie did with the chop tops.
What does your Fiero based anything look like at the moment? Just curious.
Kevin
LOL! I guess knowledge is only as good as the Fiero you own, in your mind... so what does that say about the 1/3 of a Fiero you own? I guess Archie's knowledge is less helpful than someone with a stock Fiero? Again, this is too funny... thanks!
I don't argue that Sardonyx's theory is possible. For what it's worth, I just measured my '84 (notchie, of course) at 0.910", my '85 notchie at 0.904", and my '86 fastback at 0.860" which seems to corroborate his observation. That doesn't make what he said about notchies and fastbacks any more convincing though. An equally possible scenario is that the diameters changed sometime in '85 or '86 as a result in different suppliers (as others have mentioned) and have nothing to do with body style. Every alloy has different properties so a thicker bar also doesn't necessarily mean a stiffer bar either. As I mentioned earlier, enough people would have to chime in with their measurements and their VIN's to see if the change coincided with a point in time or body style.
Exactly.... it would be helpful to know more, so we have facts to provide to others vs theories. Pontiac may have done exactly what is being proposed, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation to support it at the moment. In that case, data is needed and it needs to be consistent. This sort of reminds me of the "lotus suspension" and "86.5GT" myths...
Nor do I care (unlike you), because it isn't about what you own, it is about what you know.
I couldn't give a damn what you or any body else own. I just never understood why a person would frequent a site when they have no current ties with an object other than knowing something about it. I guess if it makes a person feel better about themselves that they can boast about knowing something they know, so be it. Hell I know I am smarter and know more than most of the people in the US, but I don't go around bragging about it.
Same *CASTING* number... The casting number is not the part number of the finished part.
Absolutely..I have a 428 Pontiac block at home. It came from the factory w/ 2 bolt caps but was drilled and tapped for 4 bolt caps as well for the HO applications. So a 2 bolt & 4 bolt engine could have a block with the same casting number.
BR's,
Mark
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe 2005 Buick 3.6 Rendezvous 2001 Olds Silhouette (AKA The Band Van)
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 10-17-2014).]
I was just trying to help. And was not gaining anything from it. I found info that was mot documented so I thought I would share. As far as jack not owning a Fiero. I justed asked why he cared then. Not that he shouldn't be here. Not my comment. As far as my initial measurements I posted one was bigger and by how much. Sorry I didn't remember the two numbers, I just remembered the difference. And thought Iwould share. Now sharing the info I get negd for it, nice people. I even went out and dou led checked everything as I have more ability to do with the mass of Fieros we have. So when I siad I checked all possibilities, I did. So there is no possibility of year engine, time of day, ws6, I checked every style possible, even 2indys. I am not though going to do a vin log, not going to spend the time, we have too many.
I just never understood why a person would frequent a site when they have no current ties with an object other than knowing something about it. Kevin
You are so confusing... You don't care what someone owns, yet, you tie their knowledge (and willingness to share) to what they own. Your logical is going around in circles. If you don't care what I own, why does it matter to you, if I am on this forum? Maybe it is because you don't like what I am saying? Eh.. whatever I stopped trying to understand your thought process.
I was just trying to help. And was not gaining anything from it. I found info that was mot documented so I thought I would share. As far as jack not owning a Fiero. I justed asked why he cared then. Not that he shouldn't be here. Not my comment. As far as my initial measurements I posted one was bigger and by how much. Sorry I didn't remember the two numbers, I just remembered the difference. And thought Iwould share. Now sharing the info I get negd for it, nice people. I even went out and dou led checked everything as I have more ability to do with the mass of Fieros we have. So when I siad I checked all possibilities, I did. So there is no possibility of year engine, time of day, ws6, I checked every style possible, even 2indys. I am not though going to do a vin log, not going to spend the time, we have too many.
So I hope someone appreciates the info.
For what it's worth, I gave you a positive rating. Not so much for the info about the sway bars, I think the differences are negligible...but more for the abuse you've been taking. One of Murphy's laws is "No good deed goes unpunished." how true. Makes one hesitant to start any new topic for fear of being hounded. Then again, I should probably not even be on this forum, my Fiero has been off the road for a year so I guess I'm not eligible to participate in discussions involving Fieros anymore. I guess buying my first one in May of 84 and owning a few others over the years doesn't mean much.
wow... that's just dumb. I haven't owned a camaro in years, yet if I'm on thirdgen.org looking on the tuning boards and see a question I can answer I shouldn't because I don't own one anymore?
There was no part number difference between notchbacks and fastbacks. This means that there was no design, supply, logistic or manufacturing effort on GM's part to differentiate between those two applications.
End of Discussion.
However, there may have been some weird variation in the production process that resulted in slightly different bars being used throughout the production run. Feasible, BUT this variation will be completely unrelated to whether the car was a notchback or a fastback. It will be related to production dates or production sequence (as described by the last few digits of the VIN).
I've read that there were 3 mill/drill machines. Was there only one main line for final assembly? IE, did all the tubs produced by those three machines come down the same assembly line to be built into cars?
There was no part number difference between notchbacks and fastbacks. This means that there was no design, supply, logistic or manufacturing effort on GM's part to differentiate between those two applications.
End of Discussion.
However, there may have been some weird variation in the production process that resulted in slightly different bars being used throughout the production run. Feasible, BUT this variation will be completely unrelated to whether the car was a notchback or a fastback. It will be related to production dates or production sequence (as described by the last few digits of the VIN).
I've read that there were 3 mill/drill machines. Was there only one main line for final assembly? IE, did all the tubs produced by those three machines come down the same assembly line to be built into cars?
This keeps being said, but not one fastback had the bigger bar and not one notchback had the smaller bar. Not even one. I checked every one we have in the yard. An 84 and an 87 would have zero in common for production runs, supply batches etc, but yet 86 fastbacks have the smaller bar. I don't understand why real world tests are showing one thing, but no one wants to beleive it. (Not being mean here) I just don't understand why the disbeleif.
How about this my official stance on the subject. I tested alot of Fieros and measured the sway bars, what I posted above is what I found. Take it how you want. I don't claim to know why the tests came out how they did. That is my official stance.
I originally looked at this thread because I am going to be adding a rear SB to one of my Fiero's (86GT) and changing the front to a heaver one. IMHO, It seems that "sardonyx247" was just trying to be helpful.
Also, IMHO, I think all the members that have chimed in here have also contributed their very helpful knowledge on other subject threads in PFF over the years, and personally I value the input when presented in a courteous manner, but I also research and fact check everything.
But, it seems all to often that disagreements turn into lengthy arguments, which just acts to degrade the forum. IMHO, I think it's better to try and "add" facts & information rather than pounding on ones chest claiming to be god on the subject. These are 25-30 year old cars, and there is no doubt in my mind that members here at PFF have more accurate information and specifications on them than GM ever did!
I'm here to enjoy, learn, and share my knowledge. Could I be wrong about something even when I have a verified source in front of me? Absolutely! So I am always open to information when presented maturely......deciding what to keep.......what not to keep........and what is still yet to be proven is my choice for me.
Let's all keep PFF's the great place that it is, Opinions and facts may vary. We all have different likes, dislikes, knowledge, and questions.
Have a great weekend everyone!
------------------ "Because in a slit second, It's gone"
Originally posted by sardonyx247: I don't understand why real world tests are showing one thing, but no one wants to beleive it. (Not being mean here) I just don't understand why the disbeleif.
Some of us have worked for the car companies and have seen how things are built. If the UAW does not have a procedure, it does not happen....and even if they do, it often does not happen. If management wanted different sway bars in different bodies, there would be lots of evidence today about how that worked. Nobody has found evidence yet. Now, there may have been some batch builds that used the same vendor's sway bar.....so 100 fastbacks go through the line and get one pile of sway bars, and then 100 notchies go through and get another shipment....but it would all be dumb luck. The assembly process is just not as neat and tidy as the buying public thinks it is. I spent a number of years researching plastic in yards because the auto companies did not know what was in their own cars!....(that's another story, though)...
I really wish Cliff would change the rating system so that you'd know who rated you... and why.
The way it is now, someone with zero reading comprehension can get confused about who said what and easily give ratings to the wrong people.... with no repercussions.
It takes forever to earn a positive rating, yet negs come fast and furious... and apparently for no reason.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-17-2014).]
Originally posted by sardonyx247: I don't understand why real world tests are showing one thing, but no one wants to beleive it. (Not being mean here) I just don't understand why the disbeleif.
Don't be misled into thinking no one believes your results. What some of us don't believe is your assertion that thicker bars were purposely and exclusively installed on notchbacks. Not being mean here either, but your sampling does not constitute proof of your opinion. You may have had no yellow cars in the yard either but it would have been false to say that no Fieros were painted yellow. It is only one possibility, but there are other scenarios that many people believe are more likely.
Just think about how production lines work for a moment and ask yourself how a build sheet could specify to an assembly line worker that one or the other bar was required when there was apparently no unique identifier between the thicker and thinner bars. How too would the worker differentiate between one bar or another at the parts bin if they didn't have separate part numbers?
Consider another example very closely related to sway bars, namely: springs. There are a total of 10 different part numbers listed for the '84 - '87 front. Five for the notchies and five for the fastbacks. There are 8 part numbers for rear springs with four for each of the notchies and fastbacks. Each part number is uniquely identified as a separate RPO code on the underhood sticker. What would prompt GM to use such a highly specific categorization of springs despite there being virtually no difference in them, and yet not care about sway bars if indeed different bars were destined for different body styles?
Furthermore, you have to ask yourself what goal GM would have been trying to achieve or what problem they would have been trying to solve by installing thicker or thinner sway bars based on body type. Notchies came in every conceivable configuration: V6, L4, WS6, Sport, Econo, 13" - 15" wheels, you name it. Based on that mix, we can rule out weight, handling, and even performance objectives as reasons. What properties could the fastbacks possibly have had that would have made thinner bars more desirable?
These are all questions that need plausible explanations to convince people that thicker bars were purposely exclusive to notch backs.
For the count, the sampling I did yesterday, (I tested alot more when we had them, when I first found out about this) is 18 fastbacks and 12 notchbacks, that was just yesterday. The others I tested before have been crushed. I first tested long ago, thus only remembered the 1/32 difference when I posted, but remembered that there was a difference and wanted to share. Boy was that a mistake.
Now just the fact that there is 2 different size sway bars proves the parts book is wrong. This point has not been brought up yet. As the (oh holy of parts books) only lists one. Regardless of what they got put on. I never argued that there is two part numbers but two different size sway bars. And according to the parts book only the 7/8" one can exist. But for some odd reason some different ones must have slipped past the assembly line and only ended up on my notchbacks scattered though out 84-87.
It could even be the rim size, but that still pertains to fastback vs notchback. But would be a reason for the different sizes.
But as the RPO codes go, is there a RPO code for fastback taillights vs notchback taillights, fastback decklid grills vs notchback decklid grills, fastback decklids vs notchback decklids, fastback decklid locks vs notchback decklid locks? You see where I am going with this. No, it was part of the package. So that elminates the RPO code theory too.
Just more food for thought. Chew on that for awhile and lets see what you all spit back this time.
Originally posted by sardonyx247: Chew on that for awhile and lets see what you all spit back this time.
You make it very difficult to have a rational discussion when you're constantly provoking an argument. Believe what you want. I believe you've brought up an interesting subject which unfortunately you did not intend to be an open discussion. More productive threads await me.
