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My swap car had a hub conversion done on it, help me decide which hubs I should buy. by zmcdonal
Started on: 10-09-2014 07:24 PM
Replies: 34 (744 views)
Last post by: VikingRedBaron on 10-16-2014 12:44 AM
zmcdonal
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Report this Post10-09-2014 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I took my 3800 car in to get it aligned the other day, but we discovered that the rear bearings were shot. The previous owner did a hub conversion to 5 x 4.75 using modified Pontiac Transport knuckles and S10 bearings according to the sale listing when I bought it. It supposedly had new hubs on when I got it, I don't know what happened, if they were just cheap crap ones or he didn't torque them properly, but they are definitely trash now.

I think I tracked down the right replacement part by the looks of it, there are not that many 1 piece hub assemblies that s10's had, it is from a 96 S10 Blazer 4x4 front wheel, I think. I went on RockAuto and there are many different brands.



Obviously I am not going to be buying the cheapo $35 no name ones and clearly not buying the $314 AC Delco ones either. I thought I remember hearing good things about Timken bearings and I know that's what I got for the front of my other Fiero from the Fierostore, but they only show a 12 month warranty, where the Raybestos which I am assuming would be ok have a 3 year warranty and a decent amount cheaper.

What would you guys go with? and if anyone can confirm that these would be the right hubs to use for this conversion I would appreciate it. Thanks.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 07:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken_86gtClick Here to Email Ken_86gtSend a Private Message to Ken_86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One way to try and confirm the part used would be to see if your local autoparts store has one in stock and compare it- they will let you look at it all day long even if you dont buy it from them. Also you local store will not be the cheapest but they usually give parts a lifetime warranty.
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zmcdonal
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Report this Post10-09-2014 07:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ken_86gt:

One way to try and confirm the part used would be to see if your local autoparts store has one in stock and compare it- they will let you look at it all day long even if you dont buy it from them. Also you local store will not be the cheapest but they usually give parts a lifetime warranty.


Funny you should say that, I was at autozone today and was trying to narrow down what exactly the part came from hoping they had one in stock that I could take a look at, but the lady there was very uncooperative even though I was the only person in the store, and theirs hubs only come with a 1 year warranty as well.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken_86gtClick Here to Email Ken_86gtSend a Private Message to Ken_86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have never had that problem at az before....they have always been nice to me.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ken_86gt:

I have never had that problem at az before....they have always been nice to me.


Yeah, I got the one grouchy lady today, the rest of the staff is very pleasant and willing to help.

I found this info on bubbajoexxx thread
 
quote
Originally posted by VISCERAL:

Thanks alot for the info Bubba.
so...
for the rear of the fiero, user 6000 front hubs(i believe 6000's go to 91 or 92 and olds ciera's go to 1996) and s10 wheel bearings:

83 to 92 are all the same the 92 have a abs ring but is easy to remove but are the same diamention
83 to 89 have no ring so are cheeper to buy

wheel bearings, i am assuming the pickup trucks have them and those are the ones you mean and not the blazer.
Please let me know because I'm going pickin at the yards Monday

 
quote
Originally posted by bubbajoexxx:

S10 Chevy blazer or truck
S15 GMC Jimmy or Truck
the small 4X4 S series are all the same up to 92



I know mine have the ABS ring on them, but that doesn't matter. Should I just order 87's so they match the year of my car to make it easy to remember? Mine uses the Pontiac Transport uprights instead of the 6000 though, I don't think that would make any difference.

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-09-2014).]

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zmcdonal
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Report this Post10-09-2014 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I ended up ordering 2 of the raybestos 87 hubs. Hopefully that's what I need.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for djlamp14Click Here to Email djlamp14Send a Private Message to djlamp14Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
is doing that hub swap a good reliable thing? I've never heard of it being done before. I would love to have a more common gm lug pattern!

------------------
11.8@115mph 1/4 mile 1999 Regal GSX being demodded for swap into a 87 Fiero GT.
11 sec pass>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQT4X2eBlR8

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zmcdonal
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Report this Post10-09-2014 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by djlamp14:

is doing that hub swap a good reliable thing? I've never heard of it being done before. I would love to have a more common gm lug pattern!



I can't say that I would be the right one to ask lol. Nothing looks sketchy about it from what I've seen taking things apart so far or from the few threads I've seen about it. I think with the transport knuckles the hole that the hub fits in gets machined slightly larger so the s10 bearing will fit and the mounting holes that mount the hub to the knuckle get elongated. Other than that it goes together just like stock as far as I know.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is what it looks like assembled. [URL=http://s100.photobucket.com/us er/zdmcdonal/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141009_120247_zpsloejfgj8.jpg.html][/URL]
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Report this Post10-09-2014 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
1) I always buy Timken bearings, best out there by far, never seen one made in China, or seen a failure.

2) Ditch the FRAM oil filter, they have by far the worst elements in the industry. Wix makes good ones at a good price.
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Report this Post10-09-2014 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

1) I always buy Timken bearings, best out there by far, never seen one made in China, or seen a failure.

2) Ditch the FRAM oil filter, they have by far the worst elements in the industry. Wix makes good ones at a good price.


Yeah I kind of thought I read good things about Timken before. Unfortunately I already ordered the Raybestos ones, hopefully they are decent. I went ahead and ordered because I'm super anxious to get this thing on the road, hopefully I can drive it a little bit before the winter hits. I got a little taste of driving it from the couple short drives I took, but it was a handful to drive with the shot bearings. I thought it was just way out of alignment because these were supposedly new hubs already. And will do about the oil filter.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a little slop.
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Will
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Report this Post10-10-2014 12:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wouldn't have gone with anything less than Timken... for me it probably would have come down to the SKF, Magnetti or ACDelco.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 02:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I wouldn't have gone with anything less than Timken... for me it probably would have come down to the SKF, Magnetti or ACDelco.


Yeah I probably should have gone Timken, that was my first thought, I had never heard of skf or magnetti before. Hopefully the raybestos ones will be decent and I won't regret it. They are warrantied for 3 years so hopefully I won't have to take them up on that warranty.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I successfully removed both hubs this morning.

I really don't think the axle nut was torqued to 200 ft. lbs. I was able to remove them with a medium size breaker bar one handed, and I don't think I am THAT strong lol.

Here are a couple pictures of what the modified transport knuckle looks like for those curious about this modification.



I got an email from rockauto while I was working on it telling me that my order has shipped and my new hubs should arrive on Monday.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While you have everything apart, you might want to take a close look at how the inboard face of the bearings seats up against the outboard lip of the CV spline housing. You might need to pop the lower ball joint out so you can slide the upright out of the way.

Since there was a lot of slop and the bearings look quite new, I would check for a mismatch where the CV housing is suppose to apply the preloading the backside of the bearing.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

While you have everything apart, you might want to take a close look at how the inboard face of the bearings seats up against the outboard lip of the CV spline housing. You might need to pop the lower ball joint out so you can slide the upright out of the way.

Since there was a lot of slop and the bearings look quite new, I would check for a mismatch where the CV housing is suppose to apply the preloading the backside of the bearing.


Hmm, I can't say that I would know exactly what I should be looking for. Would it be obvious if they did not fit together properly? This is my first experience dealing with hubs/axles.
So just to clarify with pictures, you mean how this surface

mates with the opposite side of this surface correct?

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-10-2014).]

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Report this Post10-10-2014 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its the other side of the bearing.

On the backside, there is a pressed in ring/spacer that when you tighten the CV housing nut, the stepped surface on the CV housing is supposed to press against to set the preload on the bearing so the 2 halves do not come apart. If the splines on the CV bottom out in the bearing before the stepped boss makes solid contact with this ring/spacer, then the bearing will have a gap between the two surfaces will allow the bearing to come apart and have play which will result in failure in short order.

An easy first check, take the bearing that had the most play in it, set the wheel stud face on a solid surface and use a hammer and the 30mm socket to tap this ring back into the housing as far as it will go. Once you do this, check the bearing for play. If its now gone, then you likely need to take a harder look at the CV housing/bearing interface on the backside.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Its the other side of the bearing.

An easy first check, take the bearing that had the most play in it, set the wheel stud face on a solid surface and use a hammer and the 30mm socket to tap this ring back into the housing as far as it will go. Once you do this, check the bearing for play. If its now gone, then you likely need to take a harder look at the CV housing/bearing interface on the backside.

Yeah that's what I meant but couldn't get a pic because I was at work.

Could improperly torquing of the axle nut cause a similar condition?

The previous owner sent me a message today and confirmed that they were new moog hubs, so something went wrong whether it was wrong CV end, or improper torquing of the axle nut, the nuts did not seem very tight at all. Seemed to take less effort than a typical lug nut.
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Report this Post10-10-2014 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zmcdonal:

I had never heard of skf or magnetti before.


SKF makes the hubs for the ZR1 Corvette.
Magnetti Marelli is a Tier 1 supplier to Ferrari (like an Italian Bosch)

Getting the heat treatment on the integral race housings is genuinely difficult, which is why hubs that last are expensive.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-10-2014).]

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Report this Post10-11-2014 02:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
are you sure those are S10 hubs or even trans sport uprights ? only reason I ask I have the trans sport uprights on my car with the cadillac hubs 5x115, and was under the impression that the holes on the upright had to be oblonged to make the s10 hub bolts to line up with the 3 holes in the upright . I never tried it myself, plus I had to change the lower ball joints to the larger trans sport ball joints and tie rod ends and there was no way in h%^# the little triangle piece would fit back over the ball ..

---------------edit.... there again I just read above comments and realized it was the 6000 uprights that had to be oblonged... might also be difference in brand of ball joints.. what brakes are you running? 11" camaro?


87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft)
(series II swap in progress)
85GT Northstar/ 4t80e
86GT 3800 n/a---sold
Northstar Rebuild

[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 10-11-2014).]

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Report this Post10-11-2014 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What brakes does it have? Do you have photos of the caliper brackets?
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Report this Post10-11-2014 12:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

What brakes does it have? Do you have photos of the caliper brackets?


It's running the 12" Corvette brakes. Here's a couple pics of the brackets. [URL=http://s100.photobucket.com/us er/zdmcdonal/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141011_104034_zps5ctwvbhe.jpg.html][/URL]

So I took the hub with the most play and hammered on it with the socket, sure enough no more play.



So then I went and unbolted the ball joint so I could get a good look at how the axle mates to the cv.

[URL=http://s100.photobucket.com/us er/zdmcdonal/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141011_103818_zps6n4roomp.jpg.html][/URL]

So I'm guessing that's not how they are supposed to meet and I'm going to know a whole lot more about axles before this is done? Apparently the inner boot was kind of loose because I was very gentle moving it around and it popped off.



So can anyone tell me what cv end piece or whatever its called that I will be needing?

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-11-2014).]

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Report this Post10-11-2014 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zmcdonal:



There should not be a gap between the CV housing and the backside of the bearing. Good news is you just need to measure the gap and find a spacer or washer that is about 1/32" or more thicker (it must be slightly thicker). Then with the spacer installed the CV housing will pull tight to the backside of the wheel bearing and keep everything tight.

The issue is with the CV housing. The boss area right after the spline section ends isn't a large enough diameter to properly press on the backside of the bearing.
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Report this Post10-11-2014 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So surprisingly my hubs were sitting by the front door when I got home today, that was a nice surprise.

So I went to the hardware store in search of a spacer/washer that would work. They didn't have any washers big enough in diameter to fit so it took some brain storming. I ended up in the electrical section and found some conduit locknuts that would fit over the axle, problem was they were slightly too big so I found some o-rings that will center the locknuts and keep them from moving.



This is how they look on the axle

The gap before



I think these should do the trick.

I do have a couple more questions.


Obviously the big Oring goes around the hub between the hub and the knuckle. Where is the other seal supposed to go? Neither of these were in place with the current hubs.

Also since my axle came apart, can I just use a zip tie or something in place of the special crimped clamp because I do not have the tool for that? Or at least until I take it to aligned and maybe have them swap it out for the proper clamp.

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-11-2014).]

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Report this Post10-11-2014 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The question in my mind is why were the OE CV joints which match those bearings not installed on your car when the bearings were?
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Report this Post10-12-2014 02:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will I wondered the same thing, I have cadillac hubs and cv joints, one would assume if the s10 hubs were used they would have used the same outer cv joints..
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Report this Post10-12-2014 07:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The PO might have just used the CVs that came with the upright and didn't realize there was a mismatch issue.
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Report this Post10-12-2014 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The use of the conduit jam nuts and the o-rings to keep them centered is pretty crafty.

The seal likely can not be used with the modified uprights. The bearing should have an internal seal to keep debris out so it should not be an issue.
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Report this Post10-13-2014 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The use of the conduit jam nuts and the o-rings to keep them centered is pretty crafty.

The seal likely can not be used with the modified uprights. The bearing should have an internal seal to keep debris out so it should not be an issue.


Thanks. Hopefully they do the the job. The guys at the hardware store are usually pretty surprised by some of the solutions I come up with using things totally differently than they were intended.That's kind of what I thought as far as the other seal goes.

I was able to get the drivers side all put back together this morning before I left for work, it has a tiny bit of wiggle to it but I still need to torque the axle nut down once the car is on the ground, so I am assuming that should go take care of that. I had a slight hold up with the passenger side because the old hubs had longer wheel studs in them because It is running small spacers, and I messed up the threads on a couple of them before I before I perfected a good method of installing them into the new hubs. I had to wait for Autozone to send some over from another store. Hopefully tonight/tomorrow I can get the passenger side put back together and move on to the front and see what is going on up there.

Do I have to do anything special as far as putting the axle back together? Or just make sure everything is lined up and secure the boot?

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Report this Post10-13-2014 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Make sure the rollers stay on the end and slide it into the tripod cage. It is pretty simple.

To retain the boot, most auto parts stores sell some cheap stainless clamps. Or buy the right crimping tool and use the OEM style clamps.
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Report this Post10-14-2014 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Make sure the rollers stay on the end and slide it into the tripod cage. It is pretty simple.

To retain the boot, most auto parts stores sell some cheap stainless clamps. Or buy the right crimping tool and use the OEM style clamps.


So I got the car put back together today. For some reason this side of of fought me the whole way. As soon as I pulled the axle out if the plastic bag I had it in one of the rollers came off. So I got to spend a good deal of time collecting all of the little pin things which I'm sure have an actual name. Then I wasn't too sure where to put the pins so my first though was to put them in the roller and then put it on the tripod. WRONG. Then I put them on the tripod but was unaware that there was a little ring that is on the OUTSIDE of the tripod. So I got to fish a bunch of those little pins out of the greasy boot. Third time was a charm though.



I don't know if there's a slight trick to installing these clamps or I just bought a crappy style, that's all they had but I could not get that sucker to work. I was hoping to get the crimp on oem style even if i would have to buy the tool. I ended up putting a really big zip tie on there which didn't work at all. I was hoping it could at least hold driving it to the alignment shop and then have them replace it with the proper one.

I did drive it around the neighborhood, that's how I found out the zip tie failed, and it felt pretty good and I didn't hear and weird noises or anything. Definitely didn't seem as sloppy and unpredictable as before. So hopefully my conduit locknut spacers do the trick. Right now it's back in the garage so I can take a look at the front and see what's going on up there.

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-14-2014).]

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Report this Post10-15-2014 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So today I backed the car in the garage and started working on the front end when I found one of the needles from the bearing on the garage floor. I thought I had them all!! So I'm assuming I need to yank the axle back out just for that. Son of a *****!!
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fieroguru
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Report this Post10-15-2014 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can get the rear CV boot clamps and pliers on ebay.

Here is just a sample, they sell individual ones, but you have to know the OD of the boot:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-...em1e92ac05b5&vxp=mtr

Pliers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gre...motive_Tools&vxp=mtr
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VikingRedBaron
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Report this Post10-16-2014 12:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VikingRedBaronClick Here to Email VikingRedBaronSend a Private Message to VikingRedBaronEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zmcdonal:

So today I backed the car in the garage and started working on the front end when I found one of the needles from the bearing on the garage floor. I thought I had them all!! So I'm assuming I need to yank the axle back out just for that. Son of a *****!!


I hate that when that happens !!!



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