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My needy 3800 turbo build by crashmydaytona
Started on: 10-06-2014 12:33 PM
Replies: 29 (1393 views)
Last post by: crashmydaytona on 04-12-2015 03:07 PM
crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-06-2014 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been driving my 86gt with 2000 gtp 3800sc motor for a few weeks now. The car is definitely fast and fun to drive but I think I was expecting a little more out of it. I think another 100hp would make the car a blast to drive. With that said I think my best option is to go turbo. I have been reading build threads and realize turbo's are a bit confusing and there are tons of options. I am going to track down another engine to start the build on I am not willing to take the fiero out of commission since I just started driving it again. I will then try and compile all the parts needed like I did with the sc swap. This is were I need help with what parts to get what mods will be needed on the engine. I kind of want to go low budget but not necessarily cheap on everything. If that makes sense. I would love input from guys who have turbo 3800s and drive them daily. Any suggestions and wisdom from others will be appreciated.

Engine will be 3800 sc series II. from what make and what year unknown.
transmission? auto for sure maybe another 4t65hd?
Turbo no clue help me out what should I get? what has worked on your car?
waste gate?
blow off valve?
intercoolers?
tuning who can do this when the time comes?
engine upgrades? cam? springs? injectors and so on
links to some good build threads

It would be nice to just copy someone else since I don't understand all the technical stuff yet. If your willing to share your complete parts list with me so I can just start buying what I need that would be awesome.
I am going to start wright away so maybe have something ready by next spring or summer. I am also going to try keep track of everything I am doing with pics on this thread might be fun to watch me stumble through this and maybe blow something up.
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Report this Post10-06-2014 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DBurrowsClick Here to Email DBurrowsSend a Private Message to DBurrowsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Subscribed...
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Grantman
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Report this Post10-06-2014 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Need to also suscribe to this. my thoughts exactly.
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darkhorizon
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Report this Post10-06-2014 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Engine will be 3800 sc series II. from what make and what year unknown.
--any 96+ supercharged motor is fine
transmission? auto for sure maybe another 4t65hd?
--stock 4t65e (HD or not it doesnt matter) will be good for 11.x 120mph performance.
Turbo no clue help me out what should I get? what has worked on your car?
--Hard to go wrong here. Any turbo rated for the power you want to make will work fine.
waste gate?
--whatever you want to deal with. Typically I go for used Tial gates.
blow off valve?
--I use OEM blow off valves. Stock DSM or subaru is my goto. Money will buy fancy ones.
intercoolers?
--Water to air ebay setups are easiest.
tuning who can do this when the time comes?
--Mail order something would work fine. No major concerns here. Could use a "mini AFC" to made adjustments on the fly after you have a base tune done.
engine upgrades? cam? springs? injectors and so on
--Nothing is needed. Stock on Stock will go 11.x @120 intercooled properly.
links to some good build threads
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103440.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/091053.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-100292.html


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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-06-2014 06:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
Engine will be 3800 sc series II. from what make and what year unknown.
--any 96+ supercharged motor is fine
transmission? auto for sure maybe another 4t65hd?
--stock 4t65e (HD or not it doesnt matter) will be good for 11.x 120mph performance.
Turbo no clue help me out what should I get? what has worked on your car?
--Hard to go wrong here. Any turbo rated for the power you want to make will work fine.
waste gate?
--whatever you want to deal with. Typically I go for used Tial gates.
blow off valve?
--I use OEM blow off valves. Stock DSM or subaru is my goto. Money will buy fancy ones.
intercoolers?
--Water to air ebay setups are easiest.
tuning who can do this when the time comes?
--Mail order something would work fine. No major concerns here. Could use a "mini AFC" to made adjustments on the fly after you have a base tune done.
engine upgrades? cam? springs? injectors and so on
--Nothing is needed. Stock on Stock will go 11.x @120 intercooled properly.
links to some good build threads
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103440.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/091053.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-100292.html



Thanks dark I was hoping you would check this out and maybe babysit me a little along the way.
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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-06-2014 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found a motor today not in very good shape. Missing all the accessories. The guy pull the charger and the LIM and then let it sit in the rain also no oil fill cap or dipstick. I am thinking I will need to do a full tear down because of the water but I am not sure if that is necessary or not. I think its from a regal but not sure definitely not GTP like my other one.
First question is should I get an N/A intake for this I see guys do it both ways. Is one better then the other?




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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-07-2014 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
would this type of turbo work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holset-HX35-Dodge-Cummins-turbo-/161442408828?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=it em2596b7a97c&vxp=mtr
I am assuming the $275 hx35 turbos on ebay are knock offs I notice they don't say holset anywhere.

[This message has been edited by crashmydaytona (edited 10-07-2014).]

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Report this Post10-07-2014 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
most anything new and cheap is going to be china turbos... Its probably better to just get a real used turbo off a truck.

I would run that motor you showed, it should work fine without doing a "full tear down".
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Report this Post10-07-2014 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PonnariSend a Private Message to PonnariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Howdy crashmydaytona, I'm subscribing to your build and will be happy to help if/when I can.

Out of curiosity, did you use the smaller pulley on the SC? It's supposed to make a big difference

------------------
"Because in a slit second, It's gone"

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Report this Post10-07-2014 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ponnari,
I have a 3.4 pulley on mine which is supposed to be worth maybe 20-25 hp. not sure it's enough to feel with a butt meter, but then I haven't driven one with a standard pulley. gotta believe it takes at least 50 to really feel the difference. probably normal but to engage the blower it takes stomping on the pedal. gentle push to the floor doesn't seem to do it.
Jeff

------------------
1986 Fiero GT fastback SC3800 3.4 pulley, LS1 TB
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee with "big boy" 5.9 motor
1983 Honda Goldwing 1100 Interstate

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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-08-2014 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My engine came with a zzp 3.4 pulley. I borrowed a boost gauge from a friend and I am getting 11-12 # of boost. The car is fast and fun to drive but its just not quite as much slam you to the back of your seat fun that i was expecting. I am guessing another 100 hp will get me that feeling. All help is appreciated
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Report this Post10-08-2014 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your basic warmed over l67 swap is not going to get you any more performance than a late 90s muscle car would. You will need to significantly up the power to get any sort of drag car performance out of it.
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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-08-2014 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Your basic warmed over l67 swap is not going to get you any more performance than a late 90s muscle car would. You will need to significantly up the power to get any sort of drag car performance out of it.


Meaning an extra 100hp is not going to be enough? I should be looking to build something around 400-450 hp? My goal as far as turbo selection is to go to the junk yard and pull one out of a diesel truck assuming truck turbos will be capable of high hp.
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Report this Post10-08-2014 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I mean... I drive my 12.8 second trailblazer all the time and im completely satisfied with how fast it is. 0-60 is all im looking for in most things so really i cant say if 11.8 is going to be fast enough.
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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-11-2014 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found a turbo finaly dont know what the specs on it are but I am guessing it should be fine its off a 93 gmc 6.5 I believe. It spins freely and I dont feel any shaft play at all. Borg warner IHI 51T32 Part #10226226. I think its a T3 wich means i need to buy a T3 flange to weld to my manifold?
I might also put a mild cam in but not sure if i want to spend the money on it or not.
As for injectors there is not much difference in price between 60 and 80# can you get to big of an injector?
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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-29-2014 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Using the supercharger body as an intake can I remove the boost bypass butterfly valve? Not sure when it opens where it sends the unwanted pressurized air.

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Report this Post10-29-2014 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
80s are a bit tricky sometimes but no typically you cant go to big on injector.

Boost bypass doesnt do anything as the butterfly opens to the lim.
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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post10-29-2014 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

80s are a bit tricky sometimes but no typically you cant go to big on injector.

Boost bypass doesnt do anything as the butterfly opens to the lim.


Thanks for the help. I have another question for you. In your build it looks like your turbo has an internal wastegate but you added and external one to where the 02 sensor used to be on the stock manifold. What was the reason for that?

Are there any cars that have 60# or higher injectors that will fit into the series II that I can get from a junk yard or am I stuck buying new ones from zzp and others like it?

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Report this Post10-29-2014 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by crashmydaytona:


Thanks for the help. I have another question for you. In your build it looks like your turbo has an internal wastegate but you added and external one to where the 02 sensor used to be on the stock manifold. What was the reason for that?

Are there any cars that have 60# or higher injectors that will fit into the series II that I can get from a junk yard or am I stuck buying new ones from zzp and others like it?


There are used 60's for sale all the time on here and grand prix forums/ facebook pages. They will make over 600whp on race gas. Even if you use E85 you are probably still turbo limited.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
10.91@133.1

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Report this Post10-29-2014 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by crashmydaytona:


Thanks for the help. I have another question for you. In your build it looks like your turbo has an internal wastegate but you added and external one to where the 02 sensor used to be on the stock manifold. What was the reason for that?

Are there any cars that have 60# or higher injectors that will fit into the series II that I can get from a junk yard or am I stuck buying new ones from zzp and others like it?


used aftermarket is your best bet... they are reasonably priced new though, shop around as they are a standard injector used in many motors such as LS1 etc.. Fuelinjectorconnection.com is my goto source for injectors.
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Report this Post10-30-2014 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Made my intake pretty but that's all I have done lately. I am going to pick up another engine today out of a 98 gtp its complete including all the accessories with 77,000 miles for only $250 could not pass it up. When I am looking for one there never available around here. So now I have an extra.



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Report this Post03-22-2015 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Back to this project finally. I pulled the lower Intake manifold off the engine. found mice had climbed in through the exhaust manifold and have been storing dog food inside every hole in the engine. Funny not the dog food i feed to my dogs.

Anyway I am going to pull the heads to make sure there is no food in the cylinders. So I might as well take them to the shop and have them gone over. Should i have anything specific done to the heads? Since this is a turbo build should I have different springs, valves, or any other part of the valve train upgraded. I really don't know anything about heads so your input is appreciated. Thanks
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Report this Post03-23-2015 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm in the same boat just farther along, you can check out my thread in my sig.

3800sc Series 2
Used precision 6776, 67mm, with a .68AR exhaust side
80Lb Injectors, off ebay. Still were pricy ass things.
Used Turbonetics Wastegate
Chinese cheap BOV
Air to Air intercooler were the cat used to be (Will do air to water eventually)
I scored a exhaust crossover pipe with a T4 turbo flange, modified for the Fiero on ebay! (Turbo over Trans)
Used the F-body intake to put the throttle on the battery's side (More room)
Also mounted a transcooler in the rear side scoop, its not tied into the radiator
Doing a front mount battery
Blocked off coolant passages to make a cleaner install
Re-doing the front radiator etc..
Almost there!!! And to answer your Q. Stock heads are fine, Im using an ST3 Cam, 130lb springs, and a double roller chain.

------------------
1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

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Report this Post03-23-2015 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also If your bothering to do it, you should do it clean..

I removed my alt bracket, and blocked the coolant passage in the timing cover, hose barb in intake, it opens the engine up much more, simple coolant setup too...
I made my own return-less fuel setup, So only one fuel line goes to the fuel logs up top...
Alternator will be mounted where A/C compressor was....
Top mount Turbo, to retain full trunk...
Like I said I used the F-Body intake to open up that area over the trans for the turbo...
Front mount battery... I choose to put mine under the headlight
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Report this Post03-23-2015 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Decided on or found a turbo yet? If not, have you ever considered using what the Turbo Buick / GN guys use? Huge aftermarket support in that community and plenty of used parts for sale at good prices (check the various Turbo Buick forums).

I built my Turbo 3800 in my Fiero using a stock 87 GN turbo which has pushed my car into the low 12's. Might be good for high 11's if I can improve traction, but I'm concerned my 4T60-E (which was rebuilt nearly 15 years ago now) might be a little long in the tooth for that so I've refrained from putting gummy tires on it to find out what it can do.

Anyway, say you wanted to complete your initial build on a strict budget - you could go with a used stock GN turbo for now (like I did) and that would open up many upgrade possibilities down the road when you're ready (since there is a ton of aftermarket support in that community). Mine was originally off a ~36k mi 87 GN and it has been going strong since I installed it on my car in 2003.

Sure, a cheap junkyard diesel engine turbo might work; but if you ever want to upgrade, you might be stuck redoing your system to fit something better.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-23-2015).]

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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post03-23-2015 11:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IanT720:

Also If your bothering to do it, you should do it clean..

I removed my alt bracket, and blocked the coolant passage in the timing cover, hose barb in intake, it opens the engine up much more, simple coolant setup too...
I made my own return-less fuel setup, So only one fuel line goes to the fuel logs up top...
Alternator will be mounted where A/C compressor was....
Top mount Turbo, to retain full trunk...
Like I said I used the F-Body intake to open up that area over the trans for the turbo...
Front mount battery... I choose to put mine under the headlight


I like your build very nice. Thanks for the reply I cant decide if I want to modify the engine now or not, it would be alot easier now but this build was originally intended to be quick and dirty opposite of yours. Going rearmount right off the manifold no fancy parts for this one. I guess i'll sit on it for a couple days really tempting to tear it all down clean repaint make it pretty and build the motor.

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crashmydaytona
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Report this Post03-23-2015 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Decided on or found a turbo yet? If not, have you ever considered using what the Turbo Buick / GN guys use? Huge aftermarket support in that community and plenty of used parts for sale at good prices (check the various Turbo Buick forums).

I built my Turbo 3800 in my Fiero using a stock 87 GN turbo which has pushed my car into the low 12's. Might be good for high 11's if I can improve traction, but I'm concerned my 4T60-E (which was rebuilt nearly 15 years ago now) might be a little long in the tooth for that so I've refrained from putting gummy tires on it to find out what it can do.

Anyway, say you wanted to complete your initial build on a strict budget - you could go with a used stock GN turbo for now (like I did) and that would open up many upgrade possibilities down the road when you're ready (since there is a ton of aftermarket support in that community). Mine was originally off a ~36k mi 87 GN and it has been going strong since I installed it on my car in 2003.

Sure, a cheap junkyard diesel engine turbo might work; but if you ever want to upgrade, you might be stuck redoing your system to fit something better.

-ryan


I already bought an old diesel turbo so I will probably use it. I just surfed around the GN forums and that is definitely an option worth considering. Thanks for pointing that out. I will spend some more time researching it.
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Report this Post04-12-2015 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If your going to blow through the Eaton case Don't forget to close up the PCV port in the throttle body, took me ALOT of tail chasing to figure out that little gem

------------------
1986 SE 3800SC/4t65eHD (12.871@104.96)
HX-40, FrozenBoost I/C, 80lb injectors & E85 Coming soon.....

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Report this Post04-12-2015 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For what it's worth I've been using the cheap / Chinese turbos in several projects and they are holding up well. I started taking them to a local Diesel truck service shop that rebuilds diesel fuel pumps, injectors and has the ability to VSR balance / rebuild turbos they charge me $150 to break down a turbo and balance it. so far they have all been "In Spec" but they still rebalanced them all. overall it's not a bad deal considering I got my HX-40 for about $425 after it was all said and done.
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Report this Post04-12-2015 03:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashmydaytonaSend a Private Message to crashmydaytonaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 1fast2m4:

If your going to blow through the Eaton case Don't forget to close up the PCV port in the throttle body, took me ALOT of tail chasing to figure out that little gem



Thanks for the tip. Also the cheap turbos are very tempting I am trying to hold off on the build a little until i find out if its going to be a good year at work or not. If work picks up i can start throwing money at the project and not worry too much about keeping the kids fed. if not I'll leave the engine stock and throw on my used diesel turbo and go from there.
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