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Transmission Bellhousing Depths by FastIndyFiero
Started on: 09-16-2014 01:24 PM
Replies: 16 (500 views)
Last post by: FastIndyFiero on 06-18-2015 03:37 PM
FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post09-16-2014 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hello everyone!

I'm trying to compile some transmission bellhousing depths for clutch clearance information, specifically for those who are interested in running multi-plate or reduced diameter clutches. If you have a transmission that you have access to, I would appreciate your help!

What I'm after:
A measurement down from the bellhousing face to the tallest obstacle, inside a given radius. If there's a significant difference in height (let's say greater than 3/8") between a tall feature and the surrounding housing, take a note of what radius that feature starts and ends at. My goal at the end is to create clearance profile sketches for the commonly used transmissions. The more information you provide , the more accurate I will be in creating the sketches (provided I can make sense of it). I can include input shaft/TOB information also, just reference any dimensions from the bellhousing face or the input shaft C/L.

There are also 2 specific measurement windows (from the input shaft centerline) that will be helpful:

Depth inside R 4.4" (7.25" Clutch)
Depth inside R 3.5" (5.5" Clutch)

Thanks,
Nate

***************************

Getrag 282:
Depth inside R 4.4" : 2.46"
Depth inside R 3.5" :

92-94 HTOB Getrag:
Depth inside R 4.4" : 2.45"
Depth inside R 3.5" :

Isuzu 5spd:
Depth inside R 4.4" : 2.46"
Depth inside R 3.5" :

Muncie 4spd:
Depth inside R 4.4" :
Depth inside R 3.5" :

Getrag F23:
Depth inside R 4.4" : 3.04"
Depth inside R 3.5" : 3.04"
Depth to compressed HTOB: 2.81"
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/133518.html#p1

GM F40:
Depth inside R 4.4" : 3.51"
Depth inside R 3.5" : 3.51"
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/133518.html#p8

GM F35:
Depth inside R 4.4" :
Depth inside R 3.5" :

***************************

Revision Log:

2014-09-20T15:15Z
Updated measurements for F23, Getrag 282. Added F40 info.

2015-01-16T20:49Z
Added 92-94 HTOB Getrag, added Isuzu.


------------------

My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped its mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs. (Leader of the Insurgency)

[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 01-16-2015).]

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Will
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Report this Post09-16-2014 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not the specific measurements you asked for, but this thread develops the fitment for an F23:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/133235.html

 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

The mystery flywheel had a stock organic clutch bolted to it.

I took some more measurements.
The flexplate is .105"
Crank bore 1.260"
Crank to highest point in the bellhousing is 3.005"
Crank to compressed htob is 2.780"

If I did the math right I have .895" for the button flywheel (tight) minus some clearance room. (Cerametallic 7.25″ OT-II)
http://tiltonracing.com/wp-...allic-OT-II-7.25.pdf

The F23 has more room than the 282.




and this for a 282:

http://realfierotech.com/ph...p?f=3&t=3376&start=0

 
quote
The Dark Side of Will

Took some more measurements today.

The max clearance inside the transmission from the crank flange to the part of the case covering the output shaft is ~2.425".

According to http://www.tiltonracing.com/pdfs/82.pdf the distance from the button flywheel friction surface to the tips of the bolts on top of the clutch is 1.98". Making the button 0.400" thick leaves 0.045 clearance between the clutch and the transmission case. The bolts can be cut down to be flush with their nuts, freeing up an extra ~0.060 and allowing up to 0.450" button thickness. The bolts *may* be reversible so that the nuts would stay on the inside, but I'll have to get one in my hands to figure that out.

In order to fit a button this thin, I will have to bore a N* or V6 flexplate to the OD of the button and weld the remaining outer ring of the flexplate to the OD of the button. Oh well... the finished product will have lower MOI than it would by stacking a button on top of the flexplate.

The flywheel bolts can protrude above the friction surface by about 0.050 so long as they stay within the 5" ID of the friction material on the disks. ARP makes flywheel/flexplate bolts with thin heads. I'll have to see what they have in the way of 8x1.25 bolts. The N* crank flange is 0.575 thick and I know from experience that I want as little protrusion as possible beyond it. The factory bolts have a head thickness of 0.175, which means that the counterbores would have to be 0.125 deep. With a 0.450 thick button, this leaves 0.325 after the counterbore. 0.325 + 0.575 = 0.900 or about 23mm would be the best bolt length in that case.

I ordered a 62-002-5 Tilton TOB from Summit. I disassembled a stock Fiero TOB and may be able to use the housing with a small custom sleeve to fit the Tilton unit where it has to go... which is about 5/8" closer to the crank flange than the stock TOB sits.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-16-2014).]

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fieroguru
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Report this Post09-16-2014 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In the next day or two, I can get the measurements for the Isuzu, 92-94 HTOB Getrag, and F40.
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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post09-17-2014 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Not the specific measurements you asked for, but this thread develops the fitment for an F23:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/133235.html




Will, do you have the crank flange - bellhousing face offset?

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

In the next day or two, I can get the measurements for the Isuzu, 92-94 HTOB Getrag, and F40.


Thanks!
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Report this Post09-17-2014 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FastIndyFiero:

Will, do you have the crank flange - bellhousing face offset?



It's 0 for everything that uses the FWD pattern.
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Report this Post09-17-2014 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
It's 0 for everything that uses the FWD pattern.


While it is essentially flush, it also isn't 0.000". I think its around 0.020"
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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post09-19-2014 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


It's 0 for everything that uses the FWD pattern.


 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


While it is essentially flush, it also isn't 0.000". I think its around 0.020"


Damn, I learn something new every day. Is that offset into or away from the trans side?
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Report this Post09-20-2014 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FastIndyFiero:


Damn, I learn something new every day. Is that offset into or away from the trans side?


The crankshaft flange is proud of the bellhousing face.
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Report this Post09-20-2014 05:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are the measurements I have. For the case depth, the two radii you have listed are the same for all transmissions. Also, the depth is limited by the aluminum bearing bosses for the transmission shafts.

code:

Case End of End of Retraced Extended End of TOB
Depth Input Shaft Splines TOB TOB Sleeve
92-94 HTOB Getrag: 2.454” -0.052” 0.316” 2.425” ------ ------
Isuzu: 2.462” 0.336” 0.562” 2.504” ------ 1.764”
F23: ??? ??? ??? 2.776” 1.899” ------
F40: 3.513” 1.128” 1.527” 3.529” 2.660” ------



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Report this Post09-20-2014 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From those measurements that I was quoted in above the 3800 crank protrudes .035" from the engine bell housing flange. - you could add .035 to those measurements if you measure from the transmission bellhousing.

So for the F23 it's 3.040 There is about 10" diameter with that much clearance.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
10.91@133.1

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 09-20-2014).]

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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post09-23-2014 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the information, good stuff! Partially updated the list. I'm going to make a little figure to help make input shaft/TOB measurements clear.
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Report this Post09-24-2014 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for grsychcknClick Here to Email grsychcknSend a Private Message to grsychcknEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

code:

Case End of End of Retraced Extended End of TOB
Depth Input Shaft Splines TOB TOB Sleeve
92-94 HTOB Getrag: 2.454” -0.052” 0.316” 2.425” ------ ------





When I measured my 92 FWD Getrag I came up with a pressure plate clearance from the bell housing surface to the inside of the trans to only be 2.325" and thus I needed to have my flywheel turned down to 0.820" for my 3800SC swap. I'm including the picture below I made at the time. Pay attention to the green line only.



When I made my post using this image I noted that the T/O bearing could compress down another 0.100" so maybe my measurement was correct but the actual clearance for the pressure plate needs to be 2.325" instead of the T/O clearance of 2.425" as in your table. So basically, I guess this is just a note for people looking at tolerances for the flywheel/pressure plate combo.

[This message has been edited by grsychckn (edited 09-24-2014).]

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Report this Post09-24-2014 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can double check the bellhousing depth dimension when I get home, but I am pretty sure its was correct.

Over the years there have been several people do the 3800 swap who used a 0.84" thick flywheel and had pressure plate to bellhousing interference.

I have measured several 2.8's from the flywheel face to the engine bellhousing surface and all were 0.83 - 0.84. I think the 3800 swaps have had soooo many people do them that the flywheel "thickness" ended up being referenced as 0.840" instead of it being the "flywheel depth or protrusion". The actual flywheel thickness to get the right flywheel depth/protrusion is in the 0.82" range.
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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post12-23-2014 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump to keep this from getting archived. I still need to edit the top post to add some info.

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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post01-16-2015 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump, updated again.
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2002z28ssconv
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Report this Post02-09-2015 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2002z28ssconvClick Here to visit 2002z28ssconv's HomePageSend a Private Message to 2002z28ssconvEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hopefully this info can help others too.
My Spec 3 had no clearance issues with my WCF 0.840 flywheel. I swapped to a stock pressure plate from autozone and the top of the pressure plate barely rubs inside the bellhousing.

Since the flywheel needs to be resurfaced anyway, I took it to the machine shop this morning. They measured the thickness at 0.870 inches. So maybe it wasn't milled down correctly to begin with. Or maybe surface rust and measuring inaccuracy accounts for the additional 0.030. He's taking off another 0.050 and said that he could go as far as 0.150 more if need be before the flywheel runs out of meat.

[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 02-09-2015).]

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FastIndyFiero
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Report this Post06-18-2015 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FastIndyFieroClick Here to visit FastIndyFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email FastIndyFieroSend a Private Message to FastIndyFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

Still need to add the TOB height to the list.
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