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What are the advantages of a getrag over a Muncie with a 3800sc swap by Lou and Blue
Started on: 05-19-2014 11:10 AM
Replies: 28 (1239 views)
Last post by: Monstertone on 02-19-2020 07:45 PM
Lou and Blue
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Report this Post05-19-2014 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a Muncie and I am starting a 3800sc swap. I would like to know if its worth it to buy a getrag and why. Also other than the actual transmission itself , what other expenses and work is there in converting from a Muncie to a getrag?
Thanks

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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Report this Post05-19-2014 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It really depends on what you want and how you plan to drive the car.

1st gear of the 4 speed (assuming V6 4 speed) is much better suited to a higher torque engine vs. the 282 Getrag, F23 Getrag or the F40.

The 4 speed starts to lose favor when you want to drive it at elevated speeds for long periods of time. That is when you miss having the 5th gear to lower cruise rpm and many time cabin noise volume.

The placement of the transmission and axles are the same between the Fiero 4 speed and Fiero 282 Getrag, so if you start with the 4 speed and later want to swap in the 5 speed then it isn't much additional work.
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Gall757
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Report this Post05-19-2014 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The more power your engine makes, the fewer gears you need to get that power to the road. 5 speeds are a great idea for the duke....6 speeds are a great idea for new tiny efficient motors....but for a 3800SC, I would rather not waste my time with extra shifting.
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Report this Post05-19-2014 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageSend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The 4 speed starts to lose favor when you want to drive it at elevated speeds for long periods of time. That is when you miss having the 5th gear to lower cruise rpm and many time cabin noise volume.


This is what matters. If you use the 4 speed you will want a 5 speed just for this reason.

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Report this Post05-19-2014 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:

I have a Muncie and I am starting a 3800sc swap. I would like to know if its worth it to buy a getrag and why. Also other than the actual transmission itself , what other expenses and work is there in converting from a Muncie to a getrag?
Thanks



The shift & select cables are different.
The Getrag shift linkage at the transmission is different
I believe the shifters are different
The transmission mount brackets are different
The VSS connector matches up

Also, be careful which version of the transmission you get... Fiero Getrags only came in one flavor, but the Grand Prix with 2.8 (and 3.1?) had different gearing.

Also, there are several versions of the Muncie: 3.32, 4.10, 3.65 and FrankenMuncie

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-19-2014).]

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Lou and Blue
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Report this Post05-19-2014 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow! Thank you all for the immediate responses. I thought the 4 spd might have been more fragile than the getrag and that's really what I am worried about. I don't plan on doing extended highway driving with it so ill stick to my Muncie. This forum is AWESOSME!
Now if I could just find a step by step for my swap.

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post05-19-2014 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You could easily break either with a 3800 swap. The 4speed is slightly weaker.
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Report this Post05-19-2014 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
EDIT: Skip to 30 22 Seconds....



-Mitch

[This message has been edited by mitchjl22 (edited 05-19-2014).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-20-2014 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:

Wow! Thank you all for the immediate responses. I thought the 4 spd might have been more fragile than the getrag and that's really what I am worried about. I don't plan on doing extended highway driving with it so ill stick to my Muncie. This forum is AWESOSME!
Now if I could just find a step by step for my swap.



Yeah, the 4 speed trans is a bit weaker, but none of the available transmissions are rated for a 3800, so they're all out of their element. You can break anything if you're dumb.
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PaulJK
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Report this Post05-21-2014 03:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The prevailing opinion has Always been that the 4 speed muncie is stronger than the getrag, that's why West Coast Fieros always uses the muncie in their swaps. a few postings:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/124511.html

//www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-119986.html

There are more. Search on "muncie, getrag" and 3 pages worth come up.
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Report this Post05-21-2014 07:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageSend a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Also, there are several versions of the Muncie: 3.32, 4.10, 3.65 and FrankenMuncie



The 3.32 and the 4.10 only came in 84, and they are weak, no webbing on the case. They work fine with a duke.
On the V6 muncie the case is webbed and (IIRC) I think the gears are bigger, so is the diff. We were going to swap in a 4.10 gears once, opened both cases and decided that it would be a bad idea.


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Report this Post05-21-2014 07:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:

The prevailing opinion has Always been that the 4 speed muncie is stronger than the getrag, that's why West Coast Fieros always uses the muncie in their swaps. a few postings:



And you know what they say about opinions

I've had both apart, and there's no reason to think the Muncie is stronger.
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Report this Post05-21-2014 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


The 3.32 and the 4.10 only came in 84, and they are weak, no webbing on the case. They work fine with a duke.
On the V6 muncie the case is webbed and (IIRC) I think the gears are bigger, so is the diff. We were going to swap in a 4.10 gears once, opened both cases and decided that it would be a bad idea.


Yeah, the V6 case is stronger. There isn't any difference in the gears. The V6 has the same 2nd gear ratio, but different tooth counts than the 4 cylinder cars. That's it. The widths of all the gears are the same between the two applications.
The difference between the 4.10 output shaft and 3.65 output shaft is that the 3rd/4th gears are separate on the 4.10 and a single unit on the 3.65.
The 4.10 is going to have a smaller pinion than 3.65... that's just the way it works.

I've built a FrankenMuncie with 3.32 and econo 3rd/4th gear with V6 1st/2nd in a V6 case.
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Report this Post05-21-2014 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am of the opinion that the strongest is the Muncie 3.65. I find the gear spacing perfect as well.
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Report this Post05-22-2014 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Having been around awhile I saw more unexplained random gear failures out of the 4speeds than the 282s. The 282 saw more power for longer than any of the broken 4speeds.

4speed gearing is sweet.
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Report this Post05-22-2014 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Having been around awhile I saw more unexplained random gear failures out of the 4speeds than the 282s. The 282 saw more power for longer than any of the broken 4speeds.

4speed gearing is sweet.


I haven't driven one, but I'd expect that the FrankenMuncie with V6 first gear and 3.32 final would be about perfect for a turbo 3800.

The 282 gearing in the Fiero and other V6 cars is a little wonky with the 3.50/2.05 first/second set, BUT if you can find the fairly rare 3.50/2.19 set from early Quad 4 cars, it gets better. The less rare 1.02 fourth gear helps a lot also. I have both of these in the car now and have a 3.94 final on the shelf. The gearing changes had a surprisingly large effect on how much fun the car is to drive.

The 282 is definitely FAR and AWAY better engineered than the Muncie. The Muncie is a throw back to the 70's if not the 60's...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-22-2014).]

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Report this Post05-22-2014 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for onesexyfieroSend a Private Message to onesexyfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you go with a 4 speed for your 3800sc, keep it in mind when doing your exhaust. 2800 rpm at 65 with the typical super-short, no cat, hi-flow muffler exhaust setup most guys do on 3800's would not be an enjoyable experience in my opinion.
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Report this Post05-23-2014 02:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mitchjl22Send a Private Message to mitchjl22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I got a pm asking to explain a bit more on what actually happened in the video.

My stock Getrag (Early Design) Screw in type dipstick, case broke on one of the mounting bolt locations.



I was trying to capture a video of some low >2° KR I was experiencing at 4K rpm in second gear. At about 30 sec into the video, you can see me stop pulling and look behind me. I saw what looked like a rock flip up into the air, now I know it was part of my 282 case.

-Mitch

------------------
My Car - 87' GT 3800sc
//www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/121571.html#p0

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Report this Post05-23-2014 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know I sound like a total dope here but what is KR?
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Report this Post05-23-2014 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
+1

You don't sound like a dope at all.
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Lou and Blue
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Report this Post05-23-2014 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All I could think of was "Killer Revs"

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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Report this Post05-23-2014 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
KR is knock retard. If the 3800 is predetonating it will pull timing until it stops. The value that shows up in degrees of KR.

The 4 speed failures I had were with gears breaking. The 282 5 speed failures I had was the case cracking ( 2x more power than 4speed). THe F23 has been a work horse and leaps above the fiero transmissions. Better clutch actuation with the HTOB. Smoother and faster shifting.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
10.91@133.1

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 05-23-2014).]

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Lou and Blue
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Report this Post05-23-2014 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4 spd gears breaking? Oh no! Has anyone else experienced this? Where can I find a F23 and how much would one cost?

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 05-23-2014).]

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Will
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Report this Post05-23-2014 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

KR is knock retard. If the 3800 is predetonating it will pull timing until it stops. The value that shows up in degrees of KR.

The 4 speed failures I had were with gears breaking. The 282 5 speed failures I had was the case cracking ( 2x more power than 4speed). THe F23 has been a work horse and leaps above the fiero transmissions. Better clutch actuation with the HTOB. Smoother and faster shifting.


Probably the most common failure mode on a 282 is to break the boss for the right side differential bearing out of the case.
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Report this Post05-24-2014 03:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From the research I have looked at an 86' Gt muncie transmission is the strongest trans. the fiero had stock.
The 282 is great as mentioned because of the extra gear. But the over all design of the muncie is stronger and can with stand more power. That being said, any trans can fail due to improper use/too much horse power. Look at mitch's post, that is an example of the 282.
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Report this Post02-19-2020 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK, this may either sound like a dumb question or, a too good to be true question. I found these figures on gears ratios for Muncie/Getrag Fiero 5 speed transaxles.
Manual Transmission Gear Ratios
Year _____Style __Code Axle 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th rev.
1988 4cyl 5 speed MT2 3.35 3.73 2.04 1.45 1.03 0.74 3.50
1988 V6 5 speed MG2 3.61 3.50 2.05 1.38 0.94 0.72 3.41

The question is, are the final drive gear sets interchangeable? Upping the final drive ratio from 3.61 to 3.35 in the MG2 Tranny would result in approx 9% taller final drive ratio. If this is possible, why has no one done it? Like said, sounds too good to be true. For a 3800SC swap having more than enough low end torque, it would not only offer lower rpms at highway speeds, but lessen the stresses fed back thru the drive train in the lower gears.
And, if this IS possible, IF anyone just happens to have that 3.35 final drive gear set laying around gathering dust, I sure would be interested in taking it off your hands.
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Report this Post02-19-2020 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:

From the research I have looked at an 86' Gt muncie transmission is the strongest trans. the fiero had stock.
The 282 is great as mentioned because of the extra gear. But the over all design of the muncie is stronger and can with stand more power. That being said, any trans can fail due to improper use/too much horse power. Look at mitch's post, that is an example of the 282.


The Muncie having only four speeds has wider gears that are stronger and should last longer. The Getrag has better highway gearing but at 250ft lbs of torque you are pushing both over their design limits. I know quite a few guys with swaps that blew the case to pieces on the Getrag. I beleive that the F40 is the solution

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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Report this Post02-19-2020 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

OK, this may either sound like a dumb question or, a too good to be true question. I found these figures on gears ratios for Muncie/Getrag Fiero 5 speed transaxles.
Manual Transmission Gear Ratios
Year _____Style __Code Axle 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th rev.
1988 4cyl 5 speed MT2 3.35 3.73 2.04 1.45 1.03 0.74 3.50
1988 V6 5 speed MG2 3.61 3.50 2.05 1.38 0.94 0.72 3.41

The question is, are the final drive gear sets interchangeable? Upping the final drive ratio from 3.61 to 3.35 in the MG2 Tranny would result in approx 9% taller final drive ratio. If this is possible, why has no one done it? Like said, sounds too good to be true. For a 3800SC swap having more than enough low end torque, it would not only offer lower rpms at highway speeds, but lessen the stresses fed back thru the drive train in the lower gears.
And, if this IS possible, IF anyone just happens to have that 3.35 final drive gear set laying around gathering dust, I sure would be interested in taking it off your hands.


The two transmissions are completely different and not interchangeable.

However, if you step up to the F40, then you can swap in a 3.091 final drive from the diesel version in Europe. Not cheap, but is a great setup for higher torque applications.
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Report this Post02-19-2020 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


The two transmissions are completely different and not interchangeable.

However, if you step up to the F40, then you can swap in a 3.091 final drive from the diesel version in Europe. Not cheap, but is a great setup for higher torque applications.


Thanks. I was hoping you would chime in Paul. Bummer they are not interchangeable. The 282 will have to do for now though. Maybe some day down the road a Franken-40 will find it's way.
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