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Master list of 3800 decisions and options by Boostdreamer
Started on: 05-15-2014 02:36 PM
Replies: 25 (1051 views)
Last post by: richard in nc on 08-20-2023 02:33 AM
Boostdreamer
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Report this Post05-15-2014 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This thread will list the different decisions and options a 3800 engine swapper will need to consider when planning their swap. This is not a how-to thread but hopefully it will be a good source of links to them. I'd like this thread to become the go-to thread for the first timer and the repeat swapper, alike. With your help, it will be.

Please list and describe any decisions you had to make concerning your 3800 engine swap. Tell us the options you were aware of and why you chose the way you did. Please include any information about cost, availability, aftermarket solutions, and did you farm out any part of it such as machine work?

If you have a good build thread or know of one that details a specific decision/option, please post a link. I will keep and update the second post as an index to the information that is posted here. My vision is to create an outline for any builder to follow from their very first thought, to first start-up, and on to tuning and performance mods. People have to start somewhere, this looks like a good place to begin!

Thanks in advance for your participation!
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Report this Post05-15-2014 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This list is a work in progress and it will only be as good as the participation it receives so be sure to add your wisdom here!

So you want to put in a 3800? You have come to the right place. Listed here are the things you will need to figure out before the horsepower hits the road. Some of these decisions will be very well documented. I will create separate posts in this thread for those decisions to collect those notes and links together. I will then put a note by that question stating on which page that post is.


I hope this thread will benefit many members in their journey to build their dreams. I hope those people will learn from the knowledge posted here and then come back and add any missing details.


1. Should I do an engine swap?
2. Should I put in a 3800 or something else?
3. Supercharged or normally aspirated?
4. Series I, II, or III?
5. Should I move the battery?
6. Where will I mount the coil pack?
7. What donor cars have 3800? Are they all the same?
8. What do I need to know about the alternator? (hi or lo mount, Fiero or 3800, belt routing)
9. Do I need to use a dog bone mount?
10. Should I remove the smog equipment?
11. How do I connect the fuel lines?
12. What fuel pump should I use?
13. Do I need to modify the thermostat housing?
14. Where will the wiring harness come from?
15. What computer do I use?
16. Do I need a custom PROM chip?
17. What transaxle will I use?
18. Do I need custom axles?
19. Do I need custom engine and trans mounts?

[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 05-16-2014).]

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Boostdreamer
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Report this Post05-15-2014 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Boostdreamer

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Member since Jun 2007
If you're wondering why I'm doing this, it is simply because I NEED IT...so I know that others will need it also. I have my own 3800 SC swap to do and this is how I'm going to do my research and document it and make it available for everyone in the future.

I have a 2002 Series II 3800 SC with its original HD automatic transmission that I want to put into my 86 GT. This is not my first engine swap but it is my first non-original equipment engine swap. I'm in a unique position to create this thread because NOTHING is going to be "understood" as being the obvious thing to do. Everything I will be experiencing will be new so I won't miss the details that sometimes get forgotten in the big picture.

[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 05-15-2014).]

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Boostdreamer
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Report this Post05-15-2014 03:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Boostdreamer

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Question 1. Should I do an engine swap?

YES!!! Next question!

Well, that is the answer for me but maybe not for everyone. I already made that decision by buying another engine. I wanted a few things out of my swap.

I want more power.
I want more fuel economy.
I want an awesome looking engine bay!
I want reliable performance.
I want to re-create, as closely as possible in a car, the acceleration sensation that I have experienced with my motorcycles.
I want to be able to say, "I put that in there!"

Your mileage may vary. You may not want those things. Maybe you just need to bump up the power of your existing engine. If you have a 2.5 Iron Duke, the easiest upgrade swap you can do is to put in a 2.8 V6. That was my first engine swap. I had both cars and it wasn't too difficult. I've seen people asking about re-building both of the original Fiero engines but I don't think I've ever seen that recommendation given. Usually when someone wants to rebuild their Fiero engine, it is a matter of just wanting to do the rebuild for the experience. Maybe a few were thinking about originality. As far as upgrades and bolt-on performance:

A 2.8V6 can be bored out to 3.2 according to this thread: //www.fiero.nl/forum/A...010706-2-007202.html

Another ECM might give you the bump you're looking for: //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000088.html

It seems that when the situation calls for a rebuild, the general consensus is to do a complete swap to a more powerful engine.

[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 05-15-2014).]

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Report this Post05-15-2014 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am near the point of pulling my stock 2.8L out for a clutch replacement and am at the cross roads of reinstalling the 2.8 or upgrading to the 3.8 (either s/c or not). My biggest factor is the estimated $3000 cost of this upgrade.... in a $3000 (if that) car. (similar to putting $2000 rims on a $2000 civic?)
AND, in the end, this $3000 car+$3000 motor upgrade does not yield you a $6000 vehicle; unfortunately.

Will be tuning in to your decision matrix thread; just playing devils advocate there.

[This message has been edited by Bump (edited 05-15-2014).]

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Boostdreamer
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Report this Post05-15-2014 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Question 2. Should I put in a 3800 or something else?

This is one of those questions that has been beaten to death. The thing that stands out to me is that powerplant options almost always get presented like question 2. It is always the 3800 being compared to something else. Why do you suppose that is? Well, the 3800 is quickly becoming the yard stick by which all other engine swaps are measured by. The 3800 is becoming the standard. More and more people are putting these engines into their Fieros. Who knows if any two have been done exactly the same way. The more they are used, the more is tried and learned. That leads to more options and those options can open up new possibilities which will create even more options. It can become overwhelming and confusing very quickly.

What is so great about these engines? Reliability, performance potential, economy, and aftermarket support to name a few desirable qualities. Add cost to that list which is always a concern for the shade tree mechanic. Another plus is the documentation that can be found about these engines, not only in Fieros but what people are doing with them in their cars of origin. It is easy to see why someone would want to upgrade to a 3800. They do have a lot going for them.

I guess the best way to describe the benefits of using the 3800 is "bang for your buck". Everyone understands that. For the money invested, it is hard to beat a 3800.

[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 05-15-2014).]

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Report this Post05-15-2014 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bump:

I am near the point of pulling my stock 2.8L out for a clutch replacement and am at the cross roads of reinstalling the 2.8 or upgrading to the 3.8 (either s/c or not). My biggest factor is the estimated $3000 cost of this upgrade.... in a $3000 (if that) car. (similar to putting $2000 rims on a $2000 civic?)
AND, in the end, this $3000 car+$3000 motor upgrade does not yield you a $6000 vehicle; unfortunately.
[color=#000000][/color]
Will be tuning in to your decision matrix thread; just playing devils advocate there.
[/size]


It's NOT an investment it's a hobby and the smile the 3800 SC puts on your face = Priceless...

When you hammer the throttle its like ...
.


Get the sensation....LOL

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 05-16-2014).]

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Boostdreamer
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Report this Post05-15-2014 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bump:

I am near the point of pulling my stock 2.8L out for a clutch replacement and am at the cross roads of reinstalling the 2.8 or upgrading to the 3.8 (either s/c or not). My biggest factor is the estimated $3000 cost of this upgrade.... in a $3000 (if that) car. (similar to putting $2000 rims on a $2000 civic?)
AND, in the end, this $3000 car+$3000 motor upgrade does not yield you a $6000 vehicle; unfortunately.

Will be tuning in to your decision matrix thread; just playing devils advocate there.



I hear ya! Cost is a big deal. Nobody wants to throw away money. It would be nice to be able to add up our receipts to find the value of our cars. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. From what I've read, I think you have a reasonable budget. A lot of it comes down to what you can do and what you will have to pay for. If you are handy with the tools, you should be fine provided you find your 3800 at a good price. I paid $800 for my engine and trans with all the extras that I wanted. I had to pull the engine out myself. I think I got a decent deal but I didn't steal it. I did get to drive the car, and I know that the engine was running well when I removed it. That made a big difference to me versus buying an engine from a salvage yard that you know nothing about.

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Report this Post05-15-2014 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Leading into question #3....

Do you have HP numbers from 2.5, 2.8, 3.8, and 3.8SC? Have been told that 3.8NA is worlds of difference over the 2.8. 3800NA is would be easier to come by. Is the S/C worth the extra $$? Would you be silly to to a 3800 swap and NOT go S/C?
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Report this Post05-15-2014 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bump:

Leading into question #3....

Do you have HP numbers from 2.5, 2.8, 3.8, and 3.8SC? Have been told that 3.8NA is worlds of difference over the 2.8. 3800NA is would be easier to come by. Is the S/C worth the extra $$? Would you be silly to to a 3800 swap and NOT go S/C?


I'll work on finding those HP numbers for you. I don't think you HAVE to go SC. I'd say there are plenty of guys out there who are thrilled with their NA swaps. First of all, it will be a big HP improvement. Second, it will be cheaper than the SC. Third, it will have less mechanical complexity. Fewer things to break! Fourth, lower weight. Fifth, you can add a supercharger or turbo to it later.

So definately a viable option and definately not silly to go NA. For me, I just wanted to say my engine was SUPERCHARGED and I think that it looks cool.

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Report this Post05-15-2014 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for djlamp14Send a Private Message to djlamp14Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you can always top swap a NA3800 to make it supercharged. Heads, LIM, blower, coil pack bracket and pulleys will get you there.
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Report this Post05-15-2014 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lowtrickrySend a Private Message to lowtrickryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went back and forth on doing a 3800 swap for over a year.should I go bigger? Is it worth the time/money? Who's accessories\ conversion parts to buy ? Then I got lucky and found a swap on Craig's list that someone had given up on. After debateing On what mods to do and how fancy to go as far as dressing up and painting the engine, I made the very important decision to get it installed and running and put some miles on it, to make sure all was well and test the engine for problems and performance. I know its Ben said a thousand times before but for those newbies reading this that haven't heard it yet (WHEN BUYING YOUR DONER ENGINE BUY A RUNNING CAR ) You will save your self a ton of headaches later. And you can part off what's left on the car and sell what's left as scrap to a yard and make some much needed project funding $$$.

That's my 2 cents for now I'll post as topic progresses
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Report this Post05-15-2014 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lowtrickrySend a Private Message to lowtrickryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lowtrickry

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Member since Feb 2008
P.s. I went with 3800 Series II SC in my testarosa rebody on 86 chassie

And while u could go NA and top swap later I wouldent recommend it. If your patient even only slightly patient you can find a SC over a NA for the same price if not very little more. And from what I've noticed install wise the price isn't very off as well.

Another advantage with buying a whole doner car is you have the wireing harness and pcm, with is great if your going to make your own harness and program you own PCM, or even to use as cores. Phonedawgs and fieroflyer both members on here do exalent work with harnesses/PCM and at extremely fair prices. I went with Dan aka fieroflyer because he didn't have a wait period at the time and I was extrea!nly pleased with the product and service I received from him. I even wrote a review on it. Also he has amazing build threads on here on building your own harness.
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Report this Post05-16-2014 07:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In regards to Question #9, you should preface that with "Do I need a dogbone to secure the drivetrain?"
The answer is "No".
Proper mounting with no dogbone really cleans up the installation.
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revin
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Report this Post05-16-2014 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well 1st you ask yourself...What do I want to do, go fast? nice whine of SC? Ease of maintance? turbo? trunk cut?
will it be mainly for street daily driver? Track racing on weekends? Autocross? Show car with nice pretty engine compartment?


So before ANY of your questions can be answered you will need to know where you want to go with the swap first. That will also help with the $$$
If you have time, and know which direction you want to go, there are several 3800 sites that have "de-mods" going on and great prices on the stuff you may want(fuel rails, TB's, etc.) So shopping around will lessen the $ blow.


AND Nosrac 's video is WRONG! and he knows it!

It is 10x that!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHAB2u42eA
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Lou and Blue
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Report this Post05-16-2014 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do I have to move the battery and coil pack? I am going to drive tomorrow 800+ miles to go pick up a nice 3800sc for a good price. I have been inquiring with FIEROFLYER about a harness. Do I have to cut the trunk? I would think I'd have to remove those blower tubes from the trunk.
Thanks
I will keep on looking at this thread as I go along.

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. That is until I can find a 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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Report this Post05-16-2014 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:

Do I have to move the battery and coil pack? I am going to drive tomorrow 800+ miles to go pick up a nice 3800sc for a good price. I have been inquiring with FIEROFLYER about a harness. Do I have to cut the trunk? I would think I'd have to remove those blower tubes from the trunk.
Thanks
I will keep on looking at this thread as I go along.



no move batt. but yes on the coil pack. no you do not HAVE TO remove trunk
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Report this Post05-17-2014 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lowtrickrySend a Private Message to lowtrickryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
relocateing the battery makes the engine bay much cleanner. I put mine in my trunk. There are maany options on where to relocate the coil packs. Where All depends on how u want it to look and what configureation the rest of the engine is in. If you do the low mount altinator the old spot is a great place for the coils. Icm harness and plugg wires both fit. If your willing to extend your icm harness (dan/fieroflyer will do this for u for a fair price) and make coustum langht plug wires tje posibiltys are endless. I put mine where my battery usta be.
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Report this Post05-18-2014 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So , if I move the alternator I can put the coil packs there. But the packs definitely HAVE to be moved? How many people make the alternator relocation bracket? And I'll need a power steering delete pulley too. And a front engine mount. Again trying to go as inexpensive as possible.
Hopefully Dan (FIEROFLYER) is gonna make my harness, my mind is made up already. I just have to see of he wants to do it for me. Ill just have to tell him where the locations of everything are right?
Dan please chime in if you see this post.
I wish I had a full list of what NEEDS to be done and where to source the least expensive parts. I guess that's as close to a step by step guide as I can expect.

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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Report this Post05-19-2014 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lowtrickrySend a Private Message to lowtrickryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I kept my altinator bracket in stock location save good money right there, only had to put small notch in bottom of deck lid... Where I put my coil packs allowed me to use stock ICM harness and wires save good money there as well. Coil packs have to be moved because the sit right where the passenger deck lid hinge is an it sits quite close to firewall.

Another good way to save money on swap parts is search for DIY forms on whatever part your looking to get. Also look for a car with a 3800 swap dome already and got tottald that is bejmg parted out. This is how I got my passenger axle automatic shift cable bracket and a few other small parts.

Colemt hoses from other cars fit perfect do a search for proper part numbers. Same with braided fuel lines, ones from a few other vehical fit nicely and are quite cheep.

Don't be afraid to ask stupid questions, ppl tend not to judge on here and are quite helpful. If you p.m. me with email address I can send you pics of my swap an some shortcuts and tricks I discovers and invented along the way.
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MulletproofMonk
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Report this Post05-19-2014 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou and Blue:
Do I have to move the coil pack?


I didn't have to relocate the coil packs... I did rework the hinge.

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread
Modified stock air canister and base to 3.5 inch for 3800na

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

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Report this Post05-20-2014 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou and BlueSend a Private Message to Lou and BlueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And you didn't move the battery either, but that's the na not the sc. Can you post pics of your sc ?

------------------
===Always trying to find time to work on cars===
Louis Duet
Baldwin, Long Island, NY
Where driving hard is SOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT
Stock V6---Stock everything. Trying to keep it 'mostly' that way. But I just got the 3800sc to swap into it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12
The "DuetLorean"
VIN #5835
Stock PRV engine
Robertson Equipped
Neiland/Delman Engineered
Carbed and loving it! (Peugot 604 manifold) ---"Sorry purists"

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Report this Post09-16-2014 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jholdaSend a Private Message to jholdaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PARKAV 96-99 6-231 (6-231, 3.8L), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1)
IMPALA 04-05 3.8L, VIN 1 (8th digit)
GPRIX 97-99 6-231 6-231 (3.8L), suprchrgr opt (VIN 1)
GPRIX 00-03 3.8L, suprchrgr opt (VIN 1, 8th digit)
MONTE 04-05 6-231 3.8L (6-231), VIN 1 (8th digit)
OLDS88 96-99 6-231 (6-231, 3.8L), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1)
BONNEV 96-99 6-231 (3.8L, 6-231), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1)
REGAL 97-99 (3.8L), suprchrgr opt (VIN 1 8th digit)
REGAL 00-02 3.8L, suprchrgr opt (VIN 1 8th digit)
REGAL 03-04 (3.8L), suprchrgr opt (VIN 1 8th digit)
RIVIER 96-97 6-231 (6-231, 3.8L), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1)
RIVIER 98-99 6-231 (6-231, 3.8L, VIN 1)
PARKAV 00-05 (3.8L), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1, 8th digit)
BONNEV 00-03 (3.8L, 8th digit), suprchrgr opt, (VIN 1)


could be important for anyone trying to find a 3800 sc car
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Report this Post09-17-2014 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Do I have to move the battery and coil pack ?" NO, you do NOT have to Move either the battery OR the coil pack.
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Report this Post09-19-2014 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joesfieroSend a Private Message to joesfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did my build about 4-5 years ago and it has been a blast to drive around town. I actually did my 3800 swap twice, see my build thread as I went through the whole procedure and then was unhappy with it so I pulled it and completely redid the build with lots of new parts.

Many if not all of my decisions on what parts to use, where to locate stuff, what quality of work I wanted etc. were based on two things - money and skill level. Since I am a self proclaimed cheap-ass I wanted to do the entire build myself with very little outsourced work (which only turned out to be the exhaust work). I am an ex-master technician with a full set of tools and toolboxes worth about $30,000 sitting in my garage so I was pretty well equipped to do the work. I welded up my own mounts, wired the whole thing from scratch myself and saved money be doing these things that can cost $$$ to buy premade stuff. After the first build I had fuel delivery issues (rusty gas tank) and never really got to drive the thing too much but I learned a lot from the experience so when I pulled the motor back out and redid the swap I used my knowledge acquired from the first swap to make things much better without driving the cost up.

If you don't mind paying good money to buy premade mounts, alt. low mount, exhaust, wiring, etc. (which I am in no way trying to talk down upon, I know many members here offer these parts that are good quality and worth their money, I just am very stubborn about being cheap) then you can read through a few build threads and be just about ready to do your swap fairly easily. If you are like me and want to make these things yourself then be prepared to possibly have to do them twice. My first set of mounts and the perch I made on the cradle made the engine sit crooked so I redid that during the second swap. I was very happy with the wiring harness I made because I was able to hide a lot of it since I custom made it, but I had to move a few pieces for the second swap because I went with the Gen V supercharger and N* throttle body with 6.0 GM truck MAF - all different than the basic setup I first used.

I also chose to go with some high performance goodies the second time around. I don't know if it just wasn't enough power for me the first time or I just had a few extra bucks laying around the second time but I am very pleased with the upgrades I added.

-Joe
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richard in nc
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Report this Post08-20-2023 02:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for richard in ncSend a Private Message to richard in ncEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
its always disappointing when these useful topics just end without the answers.
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