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86 V6 5spd Clutch Opinions needed by Bump
Started on: 05-12-2014 02:27 PM
Replies: 18 (282 views)
Last post by: fierofool on 05-16-2014 12:20 PM
Bump
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Report this Post05-12-2014 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, I was pretty sure I was in need of a clutch until reading an article on clutch diagnosis on the fiero store's page. Looking for advice on where to begin... (86 GT, 120k, to my knowledge, original clutch)

past couple summers, the clutch pedal would go soft over time and require that I bleed the system about annually (every 1000 miles or so). Would slowly result in the clutch not fully disengaging and hard shifts (especially first gear).

Last fall: Drove the car to work fine. When I left work, it was hard to get into first gear and shifted hard. Without any stops, I got on the highway and too my off ramp. At the off ramp, I had to shut the car off to get it in 1st gear and restart it in gear. I was able to drive the remaining few blocks home by shifting with out the clutch (rpm matching).

When I got home and was able to dig a little I found that the car runs, drives, sounds and feels fine when in gear. However when you press the clutch pedal, the clutch does not fully disengage and while idling with the clutch pedal depressed, I hear a loud scraping, not quite grinding, sound. When idling in neutral with the clutch pedal released... everything is fine.

My first assumption was the clutch basically came apart. Am I on the right path, or should I be doing some more trouble shooting.
Also, if the consensus is clutch... what clutch kit do you recommend for a completely stock car?

[This message has been edited by Bump (edited 05-12-2014).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post05-12-2014 03:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bump:

Also, if the consensus is clutch... what clutch kit do you recommend for a completely stock car?


If you need a clutch, get a LUK Part # 04088 Clutch Kit from RockAuto. Just under $70, such a deal. You don't need anything fancy/expensive. I put one of the LUK clutch kits in my '88 Formula last fall, and this past weekend I autocrossed this Fiero for the first time. Clutch feels great.

To try and determine if it's your hydraulic system that's the cause of your disengagement problems, tell us how far your slave is pushing the rod out when you floor the clutch pedal. Needs to be at least an inch.
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Bump
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Report this Post05-12-2014 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting. I was looking at the EOM replacement and the RAM heavy duty from fierostore.com. Will add that one to the list.
for only $70 was that just the clutch disk? or did that include the pressure plate, T/O bearing and alignment tool as well?
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Report this Post05-12-2014 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bump:

...for only $70 was that just the clutch disk? or did that include the pressure plate, T/O bearing and alignment tool as well?


No. Yes.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

If you need a clutch, get a LUK Part # 04088 Clutch Kit...


Just make sure you resurface the flywheel, and if you're OCD (or just like to do a good job), also get a $5 shim... as discussed in my clutch thread HERE.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-12-2014).]

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Bump
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Report this Post05-12-2014 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great, thanks. Being a 100% stock car, I dont see why I would need an upgraded clutch.

I will check on the slave cylinder tonight, hopefully.
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Report this Post05-13-2014 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Install a double seal clutch slave piston as soon as possible,,this is available from Rodney Dickman & will solve many Fiero clutch problems
this is a modification that every Fiero needs ,, the 2 seal piston is much easier to bleed.. $20.oo from Rodney
there are 2 modifications every Fiero V6 needs the double seal clutch slave piston being #1,,& #2 have the exhaust manifolds ported they have a blockage that hurts performance,,hurts gas MPG hurts smooth running & hurts cooler running
the clutch slave mod is easy
the exhaust mod may require broken bolts to be laboriously & expensively extracted you need a high level of mechanic expertise

The new performance clutches,are easier to depress I have an old style heavy duty clutch & it has killed my left leg,plus the big heavy anchor,anvil type pressure plate slows the Fiero down off the line.
Luc are great long life clutch plates
when the engine is being dropped or pulled plan other repairs, while this is done ,,now is the time for water pump ,timing chain, valve seals
when a flywheel is removed alway have the main seal replaced ,guess who did not have inexpensive main seal replaced ?? & now it leaks , go cheap on your wifes birthday gift,she loving, forgiving your Fiero is not,it needs your real love & respect
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Report this Post05-13-2014 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

Install a double seal clutch slave piston as soon as possible,,this is available from Rodney Dickman & will solve many Fiero clutch problems
this is a modification that every Fiero needs ,, the 2 seal piston is much easier to bleed.. $20.oo from Rodney


Will add it to the list.

 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan: there are 2 modifications every Fiero V6 needs #2 have the exhaust manifolds ported they have a blockage that hurts performance,,hurts gas MPG hurts smooth running & hurts cooler running
the exhaust mod may require broken bolts to be laboriously & expensively extracted you need a high level of mechanic expertise


Good to know. I have the capabilities to to the porting. I actually have a cracked stock manifold right now. Have a replacement, just never gotten to replacing it.

 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:
The new performance clutches,are easier to depress I have an old style heavy duty clutch & it has killed my left leg,plus the big heavy anchor,anvil type pressure plate slows the Fiero down off the line.
Luc are great long life clutch plates


Link to Luc clutches? Nevermind. Just looked, LUK are the Rockauto clutch recommended above.

 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:
when the engine is being dropped or pulled plan other repairs, while this is done ,,now is the time for water pump ,timing chain, valve seals
when a flywheel is removed alway have the main seal replaced ,guess who did not have inexpensive main seal replaced ?? & now it leaks


Definitely agree. At this point I am hoping/wondering if I dont have to pull the motor and fix my problems in the hydraulic system. Car is still tucked in the corner covered, but I will get it out and on the table tonight.

[This message has been edited by Bump (edited 05-13-2014).]

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Bump
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Report this Post05-15-2014 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
To try and determine if it's your hydraulic system that's the cause of your disengagement problems, tell us how far your slave is pushing the rod out when you floor the clutch pedal. Needs to be at least an inch.


I finally got the car out of the corner, spun around, and uncovered so I can work on it. The rod at the slave cylinder appears to be moving far enough. All of an inch. Couldnt really get anything in there to measure and still see it though.

I would think that when a clutch plate goes, you would loose driveability (clutch slippage) when the clutch is engaged, not? I seem to be able to drive just fine when the clutch is engaged, just troubles getting the clutch to disengage. Maybe a video of the issues would help diagnose?
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Report this Post05-15-2014 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jschmidt95Click Here to Email jschmidt95Send a Private Message to jschmidt95Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had such a frustrating time with this exact problem a couple months ago. Everything was stock and everyone on the forum kept saying "just go and replace the hydraulic stuff first, because it's cheaper and more likely what the problem is"

So I took their advice, changed Both the master and slave (RD's Product) along with the FS Hydraulic line fix, gravity bled it for a solid hour, and it worked perfect the next morning!

So my two sense would be to just change out the Hydraulics first. Their relatively cheap, and much easier to change than the clutch.

Good luck!

Oh, and I remember reading that there needs to be 2 inches of movement in the slave to properly push the clutch arm to disengage the clutch.


-John
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Report this Post05-15-2014 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jschmidt95:

I had such a frustrating time with this exact problem a couple months ago. Everything was stock and everyone on the forum kept saying "just go and replace the hydraulic stuff first, because it's cheaper and more likely what the problem is"

So I took their advice, changed Both the master and slave (RD's Product) along with the FS Hydraulic line fix, gravity bled it for a solid hour, and it worked perfect the next morning!

So my two sense would be to just change out the Hydraulics first. Their relatively cheap, and much easier to change than the clutch.

Good luck!

Oh, and I remember reading that there needs to be 2 inches of movement in the slave to properly push the clutch arm to disengage the clutch.


-John


Noted. And agree. I believe this is going to be my first route. My car has around 120K and from the massive stack of receipts (back to the original window sticker) I have tells me its the original clutch, so it could be clutch time, but if I dont have to drop the drive train this summer.... I would love that. Time is looking thin this year.
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Report this Post05-15-2014 10:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You got a clutch to last 120,000 miles?.....I need to take driving lessons from you.
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Report this Post05-15-2014 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

You got a clutch to last 120,000 miles?.....I need to take driving lessons from you.


Cant gaurentee that, however I have STACKS of receipts down to oil changes since the birth of the car and I do not have one for a clutch replacement. I am the third owner as far as I can tell and was older gentlemen prior to me and the last owner drove it 80 miles a day highway which is where the miles came from. Car looks like it has 60k miles.
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Report this Post05-15-2014 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok got a good look at it again tonight. Rod on the slave cylinder is moving almost exactly an inch. Going to order a rebuild kit for the slave and a new master cylinder in the morning. If I can verify which master I need. Ha.

Should this not resolve the issue, any other thoughts? I read through the service manual tonight and all the "makes noise"scenarios that were in there resulted in bearing replacements. Any other thoughts?
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Report this Post05-15-2014 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have the outlet fluid line in front of the reservoir, it's second design. If it's between the reservoir and the firewall, it's first design. Be sure to hone out the slave before installing the double seal kit.
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Report this Post05-15-2014 11:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fierofool

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quote
Originally posted by jschmidt95:
So my two sense would be to just change out the Hydraulics first. Their relatively cheap, and much easier to change than the clutch.
Oh, and I remember reading that there needs to be 2 inches of movement in the slave to properly push the clutch arm to disengage the clutch.


-John


Good suggestion on hydraulics first.

Slave piston movement only needs 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 minimum to disengage with all else in the system being correct.

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Report this Post05-16-2014 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

If you have the outlet fluid line in front of the reservoir, it's second design. If it's between the reservoir and the firewall, it's first design. Be sure to hone out the slave before installing the double seal kit.


I dug into it last night to see which master and also which banjo size I needed (4 total options actually) I have the later model resivour with the large banjo (early model pedal assbly) haha
Interesting you mention honing the cylinder... I have not gotten the instructions yet, but I assume this requires a special sized hone? Their website did not mention anything about it.

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
Slave piston movement only needs 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 minimum to disengage with all else in the system being correct.


That's about what mine is moving... leading me to believe that I might be replacing worn parts, however might not be my issue.

Oh well, its a start! and a much easier one!

[This message has been edited by Bump (edited 05-16-2014).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post05-16-2014 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Over time you can get a build up of brake fluid varnish or rust inside the bore of the slave. That's the reason for honing. It does take a pretty small hone to do it, but you can use a wooden dowel with some emery cloth wrapped around it. Spiral wrap a strip onto the dowel, insert it and then hone the sides by using a stirring motion in a direction that keeps the cloth wrapped onto the dowel. Don't use a back and forth motion because you will only get spots of the imperfections. Afterward rinse the bore very well with mineral spirits, lacquer thinner, or a good solvent, followed by some brake fluid. This is to remove any grit left by the sandpaper. Sometimes you can even use a strip of emery cloth and your little finger to polish out the bore, depending upon how deep you need to reach.
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Report this Post05-16-2014 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BumpClick Here to Email BumpSend a Private Message to BumpEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great info. Thanks!

Any specific/better fluid to use? I plan to drain, blow out, and re-fill the entire system with new fluid when I replace the master and slave.
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Report this Post05-16-2014 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't use DOT 5 fluid. Use DOT 3 or 4 quality brand fluid.
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