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Help I'm retarded. Gen 2 headlight motors. by jimbolaya
Started on: 04-14-2014 02:44 PM
Replies: 24 (517 views)
Last post by: jimbolaya on 04-16-2014 03:57 PM
jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have some gen 2 headlight motors, and I can't remember how to get the gear out to replace the bushings. Case is open, the dust came flying out, but I can't get the gear out.

Jim
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well it appears I have bigger problems. Fierosail website said the motors out of an 89 sunbird would fit our cars. They don't, at least not an 86. do i have to change the buckets also?

Jim
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Gall757
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Report this Post04-14-2014 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think '86 was the Gen 1 headlights.
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

I think '86 was the Gen 1 headlights.


I know, what I want to do is convert to a gen 2 but the sunbird motors arent working like I was told.
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fierofool
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Report this Post04-14-2014 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
They're an entirely different system. You will have an internal limiter switch and a series of relays on the 86 system. The Sunbird or Generation 2 motors don't have that limiter in the motor or the relays. Those functions are controlled by a solid state module. That's why.
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok you are not following me. I already know all that you said. That's not the issue. I know I need gen 2 motors, and I know I need the module. THE PROBLEM is I was told 89 Sunbird motors are gen 2, and would work along with its module. That info is on the Fierosails website. Now that that is, hopefully, clear, I was changing the bushings on the gen 2 motors and 1 of them was backwards and I couldn't get the gear out. I finally figured that out, and that solved the initial question I had. However, when I went to put the new motors in the car, the 3 mount holes are not the same, and they will not fit in the headlight buckets as I was lead to believe. So for everyone out there, 89 Sunbird headlight motors DO NOT fit Fieros.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-14-2014).]

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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jimbolaya

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Should have clicked edit instead of quote.

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-14-2014).]

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Gall757
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Report this Post04-14-2014 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:

Ok you are not following me. I already know all that you said. That's not the issue. I know I need gen 2 motors, and I know I need the module. THE PROBLEM is I was told 89 Sunbird motors are gen 2, and would work along with its module. That info is on the Fierosails website. Now that that is, hopefully, clear, I was changing the bushings on the gen 2 motors and 1 of them was backwards and I couldn't get the gear out. I finally figured that out, and that solved the initial question I had. However, when I went to put the new motors in the car, the 3 mount holes are not the same, and they will not fit in the headlight buckets as I was lead to believe. So for everyone out there, 89 Sunbird headlight motors DO NOT fit Fieros.
Jim


OK , I am not following you either. Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors are not interchangeable. That bracket that you are trying to attach the motor to is a Gen 1 bracket is it not?
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 86. It has the Gen 1 motors. I bought the module and gen 2 motors from an 89 Sunbird. They are suppose to be identical to the 87, 88 Fiero headlight motors. Apparently they are not because they will not mount into the 86 headlight buckets. I did this swap before, on an 85 Fiero, with the motors from a Firebird, and swapping the headlight buckets was not necessary. It should not be necessary ever. The 89 Sunbird motors do not fit a Fiero of any year. This is my point.

Jim
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jimbolaya

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quote
Originally posted by Gall757:


OK , I am not following you either. Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors are not interchangeable. That bracket that you are trying to attach the motor to is a Gen 1 bracket is it not?


Yes, but I do not believe you are correct. I did this upgrade on an 85, and I did not change the headlight buckets. My buddy Aland on the forum has done this upgrade on his 85, and 86.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-14-2014).]

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Gall757
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Report this Post04-14-2014 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK, I get it now. I have never tried to put Gen2 motors in a Gen1 bucket....I thought the whole thing was different.
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Report this Post04-14-2014 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe the gears and bushings inside of the Sunbird motors are the same as Rodney's Rebuild Kit will work on them. They just mount differently. I checked on Rockauto and the sunbird's headlight motor part numbers only cross reference to the sunbird only whereas the 2nd Gen Fiero motors cross reference to Firebirds and Fieros. Maybe you can just rebuild the Sunbird motors and sell them on eBay. Was the Sunfire you pulled the headlight motors from, Turbo, by chance?
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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-14-2014 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:

Was the Sunfire you pulled the headlight motors from, Turbo, by chance?


I wish I knew. I didn't pay attention. I just checked the year and the the model. I'm going to take them back to Pick n Pull and get credit and pray the right ones come in before my credit expires.

Jim

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Report this Post04-14-2014 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
IIRC, you need to swap the motors to opposite sides if they're coming from a Firebird/Sunbird. The buckets for the Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors are the same, but because the motor is smaller (narrower), you'll need to cut down the 2 longer screws about 1/4" or they will go all the way through the bracket and bind when the motors go up and down.


[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 04-14-2014).]

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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-15-2014 05:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NetCam:

IIRC, you need to swap the motors to opposite sides if they're coming from a Firebird/Sunbird. The buckets for the Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors are the same, but because the motor is smaller (narrower), you'll need to cut down the 2 longer screws about 1/4" or they will go all the way through the bracket and bind when the motors go up and down.


The length of the bolts, or swapping motors is not the issue. The holes on the motor do not line up with the holes on the bucket. Only way to make these work is to make some type of adapter plate, which would be very difficult, because geometry would be a ***** to get correct.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-15-2014).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post04-15-2014 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:


Yes, but I do not believe you are correct. I did this upgrade on an 85, and I did not change the headlight buckets. My buddy Aland on the forum has done this upgrade on his 85, and 86.

Jim



The buckets and mount assembly are the same. I believe the only differences between Gen 1 and 2 are the motors, of course, and I think it's the long arm that attaches to the motor and pushes the bucket up and down. I think that the Gen. 2 motor might be a little thinner, requiring a different curvature of the bucket lift arm.

This from Paul McKibben at FieroSails might help.

[quote]
Headlight Motors'87-88: Headlight motors on the '87-88 Fiero have an improved design compared to the earlier years but still fail due to age. Replacements are available from GM but are expensive. Used and rebuilt motors are frequently sold on eBay. Repairs are simple, more so than earlier years. We understand that headlight motors from the following cars will fit the '87-88 Fiero:

- Buick Reatta (all years - may require different control module; see below)
- 1986-89 Pontiac Sunbird*
- 1988-96 Corvette
- 1987-92 Firebird (must swap sides to fit Fiero)
- 1988-02 Lotus Esprit
- 1988-04 Lotus Elan (most)
- 1990-92 Toranado Trofeo (may require different control module; see below)

*Not all Sunbird motors from these years will swap. On some, the mounting holes on the Sunbird motors do not aline with the mounting holes in the Fiero headlight buckets on either side. Our thanks to Jim Moreland for this nugget.
[quote]
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dobey
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Report this Post04-15-2014 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
- 1986-89 Pontiac Sunbird*

*Not all Sunbird motors from these years will swap. On some, the mounting holes on the Sunbird motors do not aline with the mounting holes in the Fiero headlight buckets on either side. Our thanks to Jim Moreland for this nugget.


Heh. Well I guess that page was updated with the info from this thread pretty quickly then. You're quoting a man's own information to himself.
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Gall757
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Report this Post04-15-2014 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was gonna say......I don't remember that asterisk! Ha!
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Report this Post04-15-2014 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:


The buckets and mount assembly are the same. I believe the only differences between Gen 1 and 2 are the motors, of course, and I think it's the long arm that attaches to the motor and pushes the bucket up and down. I think that the Gen. 2 motor might be a little thinner, requiring a different curvature of the bucket lift arm.

]


I swapped out my Gen 1 motors for Gen 2 and used all the parts from '85, including the buckets and lift arms, without issues (other than the bolts needed to be cut as mentioned above).

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Report this Post04-15-2014 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Heh. Well I guess that page was updated with the info from this thread pretty quickly then. You're quoting a man's own information to himself.


No, that page has been on our website for years.
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Report this Post04-15-2014 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
jimbolaya. I followed what you were trying to convey from the start. What you were trying to convey is hey people the sunbird housing is completely different and the dang motors will not fit. My neighbor has a Buick Reatta and his lights are in the up position. Last year he came over and was talking and I showed him how the lights work on the Fiero and how you can manually turn them. I also told him Rodney has a fix for it and I did mine myself so he should be able to do his. We went over to his house, he opened the hood and as Gomer Pyle would say Goolllly those motors are laying down Andy. I showed him were to turn the cap to get the lights to move. He later told me he bought the kit. Well it has been a year and I see he hasn't done anything to it.

I was surprised to see the motors laying down on the Retta and figured it was a packaging problem so gm put them that way. SO I can truly understand that the Sunbird motors do not work.

[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 04-15-2014).]

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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-16-2014 09:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:


No, that page has been on our website for years.


But the asterisk was not. BTW, I am not upset with Fierosails, if anyone was wondering. Hey, it happens. Paul Mckibben, from Fierosails, has been in touch with me via e-mail. They have added the asterisk, so that people can pay closer attention to the motors. I have my credit from Pick n Pull, and hopefully they will get a Firebird soon. No harm, no foul.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-16-2014).]

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Report this Post04-16-2014 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
No, that page has been on our website for years.


That's why I said updated. Like Jim said, the asterisk was not always there.
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Report this Post04-16-2014 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Out of curiosity, could they have been made to work with an adapter or something? Maybe that would increase our options on these things.

------------------
1986 SE Aero coupe.

3.4 DOHC swap is complete and running, now just have to finish the rest of the car...

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jimbolaya
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Report this Post04-16-2014 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tesmith66:

Out of curiosity, could they have been made to work with an adapter or something?



Probably, but as I mentioned, geometry would be a concern. I couldn't just make a plate with 3 holes and expect it to go up and down properly. I'm not getting in to all that.

Jim

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