To cat or not to cat? That is queston being asked. Here is my opinion.
Unless your cat is old and plugged up you will receive little to no improvement in either sound or horsepower gains by NOT running a cat. High flow cats are just that, high flow and in no way impede the flow of gases in ANY demonstrative way, especially with stock Fieros. All newer great sounding cars have cats and performance mufflers. Ferrari, Lamborgini, Ford Mustang, Corvette, even my STS. My cars now all have Mangaflow muflllers with the best sound(in my ears anyway). Every car I have ever heard with this set up is wonderful to listen to.
I am trying to keep this fireo based for the forum Nazi's. So that said and all the upgrades we talk about here to get the best out of our cars, good cats and mufflers are our best friends. Thanks for participating. DD. ;-))
[This message has been edited by Diamond Dave (edited 04-10-2014).]
Originally posted by Diamond Dave: I really hope you don't do this or promote anyone to run without a cat on the streets. I would like to see how many others agree that this practice is not necessary for any reason. What say you?
Generally, this Forum sticks to purely technical questions. There are a lot of variables that go into a decision. Adults are asking for technical means, not ethical conundrums. If they have a situation, be it lack of funds, or off road use, or a show car, or whatever.....they may make a decision that is not obvious to those of us who describe a technical method to get the job done. I AM a tree hugger and would park a car before I run it without a CAT, but I can't presume to tell someone what to do with their car, when we have thousands of coal-fired power plants belching pollution along with landfills leaking methane that would equal hundreds of thousands of CAT-less Fieros. There are bigger fish to fry.
To cat or not to cat? That is queston being asked. Here is my opinion.
Unless your cat is old and plugged up you will receive little to no improvement in either sound or horsepower gains by NOT running a cat. High flow cats are just that, high flow and in no way impede the flow of gases in ANY demonstrative way. All newer great sounding cars have cats and performance mufflers. Ferrari, Lamborgini, Ford Mustang, Corvette, even my STS Cadillac.
Do you want to have one of the best sounding cars out there? Here is my proven way to the best sounding cars I have ever heard and still have and own. 50,000 miles on my last set up and counting. A high flow cat and a Magnaflow muffler. You will have a deep growl with plenty of volume with a moderately loud high end that is a heavenly but subdued roar.
All this talk lately about running straight pipes and no cats is just plain wrong. No only illeagal, it is irresponsible and naieve on so many levels. I am not a tree hugger. I am a go as fast as I can sort of guy. I hate political anything. I am allergic to idiots, cops, judges, and politicians. But I do like to breath good clean air and believe everyone should do their part to make this a better world. Taking your cat of is childish, irresposible, cruel, and totally insane.
I really hope you don't do this or promote anyone to run without a cat on the streets. I would like to see how many others agree that this practice is not necessary for any reason. What say you?
Are you related to Al Gore? A Sierra Club or Pita member? Move on Troll, this place is about performance and fun stuff. Larry
[This message has been edited by trotterlg (edited 03-31-2014).]
I AM a tree hugger and would park a car before I run it without a CAT, but I can't presume to tell someone what to do with their car, when we have thousands of coal-fired power plants belching pollution along with landfills leaking methane that would equal hundreds of thousands of CAT-less Fieros. There are bigger fish to fry.
^^ I will second this statement.
Cats, however, are a double-edged sword whenever you have an improperly designed system like the 2000+ MR2 Spyder 4-2-1 ULEV system. Their header is a 4-2 with pre-cats directly attached. When (not if) these ceramic pre-cats fail, they collapse. This collapse sends ceramic and platinum in two directions. Most of it goes down into your main cat, causing premature failure of it, but some also gets sucked back up into the cylinders by the engine's VVT system. When you have platinum and ceramic bouncing in your cylinder walls, you have very bad day. So, my wife and I have replaced our MR2-Spyder's 1ZZ engine, hollowed out the pre-cats and replaced the main cat with a better-designed, better-flowing, higher-capacity catalytic converter that does better emissions control than the stock three-cat setup. However, our setup would not be CARB/California legal, only good for the other 49 states, despite being tested as 20% cleaner than stock. In the case of this engine, it has benefited greatly from the removal of two catalytic converters from the system.
That being said, this thread does not belong in the technical discussion forum. Nor should it be spammed twice. >.>
[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 03-31-2014).]
I often see threads accidentally posted twice (or even more times) here. It's usually an honest mistake. Do you accuse all these members of "spamming" the forum as well?
I see no problem with this thread. Is not a forum for discussion?
Political spam is what it is, a lousy Troll trying to get in a political in a lick in a nice fun place. Get lost and go post on some green electric car place. Larry
I often see threads accidentally posted twice (or even more times) here. It's usually an honest mistake. Do you accuse all these members of "spamming" the forum as well?
I see no problem with this thread. Is not a forum for discussion?
1) If it was indeed accidental, he can always delete the other one. I've double-posted on more than one occasion by accident. I always go back and clean up after myself. Double-posts are also not over an hour apart. (This thread was posted at 9:13 PM EDT, the other posted at 10:08 PM EDT. That's not an accidental double-post caused by lag, mis-click or form resubmission.)
2) This thread is misplaced. This is for technical discussions and questions, as per the sub-header: "This is the place to ask and discuss all Fiero related technical topics." This isn't a technical discussion, it's political.
Edit: To clarify; I am not attacking the OP. Nor am I in disagreement on the cat issue. Where I have my disagreement is with the placement of this thread. It's posted with a clear intention to get people's tempers flared.
[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 04-01-2014).]
Political spam is what it is, a lousy Troll trying to get in a political in a lick in a nice fun place. Get lost and go post on some green electric car place.
To cat or not to cat? That is queston being asked. Here is my opinion.
Unless your cat is old and plugged up you will receive little to no improvement in either sound or horsepower gains by NOT running a cat. High flow cats are just that, high flow and in no way impede the flow of gases in ANY demonstrative way. All newer great sounding cars have cats and performance mufflers. Ferrari, Lamborgini, Ford Mustang, Corvette, even my STS Cadillac.
Do you want to have one of the best sounding cars out there? Here is my proven way to the best sounding cars I have ever heard and still have and own. 50,000 miles on my last set up and counting. A high flow cat and a Magnaflow muffler. You will have a deep growl with plenty of volume with a moderately loud high end that is a heavenly but subdued roar.
That all sounds pretty technical.... ^^^^^^ after that it doesn't really add anything to the conversation.
He's asking a fairly "technical" question, should he run a cat or not? Why is that question so hard to answer.
The answer by the way is yes run a cat. I have a high performance Magnaflow on my 3800sc swap.
That all sounds pretty technical.... ^^^^^^ after that it doesn't really add anything to the conversation.
He's asking a fairly "technical" question, should he run a cat or not? Why is that question so hard to answer.
The answer by the way is yes run a cat. I have a high performance Magnaflow on my 3800sc swap.
-Mitch
In that case, he could have posted his opinion in this thread where he already posted or this thread where he already posted. Or any of the other ones that already clearly exist on the topic. There's no need to start a third and fourth thread on the same subject. It gets in the way of the other subjects being discussed, which is why there are rules about this clearly posted in the sticky above. I'm not trying to do Cliff's job here, but what I am getting at is I'd rather not see yet another thread get thrown off to the trash can because people can't keep things civil. Not saying the OP is being uncouth, but there will be those who will get in an uproar over this. There's no sense poking the flames.
Edit: Typo.
[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 04-01-2014).]
1) If it was indeed accidental, he can always delete the other one. I've double-posted on more than one occasion by accident. I always go back and clean up after myself. Double-posts are also not over an hour apart. (This thread was posted at 9:13 PM EDT, the other posted at 10:08 PM EDT. That's not an accidental double-post caused by lag, mis-click or form resubmission.)
So you're saying he started two exact same threads on purpose? Sorry, but I don't buy it.
I've seen duplicate threads started half a day later. It just depends when the poster returns to their computer and does whatever it is that causes a double-post. And then it's not always obvious to that person what's happened, so the deletion of the extra thread doesn't happen for ages.
I don't know why some of you guys are so harsh with this fella.
quote
Originally posted by Ravant:
It's posted with a clear intention to get people's tempers flared.
If he really wanted to do that, he could've posted just about anything in O/T.
Originally posted by Patrick: I don't know why some of you guys are so harsh with this fella.
I can't speak for anyone else, but can tell you why I'm upset with this guy. Every time someone asks where to get a cat delete pipe and I offer an answer, this knucklehead sends me a nasty PM. It's like he's trying to bully me into silence or something. I finally got tired of the bullshit, and put him on my ignore list.
It started out as a technical question and I assure you it is NOT political. The original question was a member asking if I was ok to delete the cat and what effect it had on performance and sound. I also wasn't telling anyone what to do or think. I asked them what they thought. Too bad some of you can't read and come up here drunk on your butts to pick a fight. Talk about getting personal and taking issue with what is technical or not. How about burnt exhaust valves because of straight pipes? Just because I am not giving you exact numbers doesn't make it not technical. Not running cats can be harmful to your motor. The rest is point of view but then what isn't. Even your putting words in my mouth and bashing me personally is just a point of view. If your getting all hot under the collar that is your problem not mine. My stance is it hurts you not at all to have a consciousness about the environment and still get the most out of your car. It is a win, win for everybody. Imho
[This message has been edited by Diamond Dave (edited 04-10-2014).]
Every time someone asks where to get a cat delete pipe and I offer an answer, this knucklehead sends me a nasty PM. It's like he's trying to bully me into silence or something.
Well, I don't know what's up about that.
I just discovered he's got an Enterra Vipre. He can't be all bad.
From a technical point of view cats do not hinder hp or sound unless they are faulty.
Anything in the exhaust path inhibits power, how much is the question. I think the posts are completely political enviormental BS, the number of catless Fiero's proably don't equal the methane farts from one cow in a day. Just go away and let people have fun with the cars they love. Larry
If he really wanted to do that, he could've posted just about anything in O/T.
He could've. I guess where my issue lies, is the emotional attachment everyone's throwing at the cat issue in various threads over the last week. My statements aren't necessarily directed at the OP here. They are an attempt to step in and say "Hey, guys, agree to disagree." while also reminding people of the rules we all agreed to when we signed up. There's no animosity, no emotion behind my posts, just a bit of grounded logic in a potential tinderbox.
On one hand: I see no harm in running a 200-cell cat and calling it a day. On the other: By running a cat, you're using rare metals. Those metals have to come from somewhere. When it comes to environmentalism, people have a tendency to forget that the environment is more than just the atmosphere we breathe. By overusing the precious metals in the cats we use, we're encouraging strip-mining as well as disposal of 'waste' material in potentially unsafe, toxic ways if our cats are coming from deregulated countries. On the third: Whether someone wants to make an unethical decision or not is not up to us to police. When someone's asking for information: "Hey, my cat collapsed and is plugged. My car won't run right. Where can I get a cat delete until I can afford a replacement?" should be answered pretty simply: "Here." Then when it comes time for inspection, federally, the cat has to exist on a Fiero. Whether it's gutted or not is of no consequence to the law, but unless the state has specifically overridden the cat requirement for our cars, it needs to be in place in some form. Let the information be and leave the policing up to the police.
Ravant you just don't get it dude. People who know anything about motors knows you don't reduce exhaust pressure without enriching the feul mixture or you can burn your exhaust valves. The kids up here just starting out don't know this. I understand you have a plugged cat, don't have money for new one ream it out, for NOW. Temporary fix right? If not explained to them by more experienced people they will get the wrong advice for the wrong reasons. I was attempting to undo all the wrong advice, in my opinion, that cats are unnecessary and mufflers too. This is what our so called fiero gurus were telling some of the less informed up here. Where they got their feelings hurt was when they got called on it for giving advice that is going to cost the ones asking the questions in the end. They are butt hurt over someone calling them on their crap advice. Point in fact performance header pipes or cat by pass tubes sold by Fiero srore that are explicitly spelled out as off road only uses. That is technical advice. That is good advice. I don't get some of the off base feed back that just doesn't do beginners any good.
[This message has been edited by Diamond Dave (edited 04-01-2014).]
So. Anyone have a link to nice replacement cats that flow well and are not expensive and fit the Fiero?
Most any high performance universal fit will work. The Fiero is old enough it doesn't require a specialized cat. I personally think they sound better with them. I took off the plugged cat on my Formula and other than at idle, I thought it sounded like crap. (rest of exhaust was stock) It sounded like a UPS truck when decelerating. I put a high-flow cat on and can't tell any difference in performance but it tunes and smooths out the sound quite a bit.
People who know anything about motors knows you don't reduce exhaust pressure without enriching the feul mixture or you can burn your exhaust valves. The kids up here just starting out don't know this. I was attempting to undo all the wrong advice, in my opinion, that cats are unnecessary and mufflers too. This is what our so called fiero gurus were telling some of the less informed up here. Point in fact performance header pipes or cat by pass tubes sold by Fiero srore that are explicitly spelled out as off road only uses. That is technical advice. That is good advice. I don't get some of the off base feed back that just doesn't do beginners any good.
I think your idea is/was sound, but ther are levels of backpressure required and many things at play all at once. Each car and each system would have its own required parameters of how much backpressure is required. In many cases having a straight pipe is enough back pressure, especially one full system length. Add to that 02 sensors, injectors, and computers that will measure the mix on the fly and the problem is smaller. The test may be to sniffer test your exhaust?
I bought a brand new cat off eBay for my duke four years ago. Cost me a grand total of $20... which included shipping!
I acquired an '88 Formula last July which still had the original cat on it. Needless to say, the cat was not functional any longer. Picked up a brand new cat for the Formula off eBay for $33 (including shipping).
1. Spam is BS. PFF is know for double or more postings and when that happens on new topics, Most do not delete extras because many extras happen in minutes, some in hours apart. Cliff blames this problem on user's clients (the browser) but I suspect other things are involved. I've use many forums w/o chronic multiple post problems.
2. Delete the cat = increase performance? You might make that case in the 1970's and 80's. Current designs will not bottleneck exhaust flow and add any back-pressure that most can measure.
3. Overheated, Plugged or Poison cat's often are a symptom of others problems, like injector problems, burning oil, or leaking coolant from bad gaskets. DO NOT install a new one until you fix the real problem. Overheat is a major fire hazard and will cause catalyst guts to melt or break into pieces.
4. New Catalysts use far less "Rare Earth" metals. Many reasons why but #1 reason save money to make current units.
5. States might not actively look for a catalyst but most states is illegal to drive w/o one. A. DE and others and cars w/ normal tags must pass sniffer test. My Fiero gets this every time and pass w/ OE cat. B. If using Historic/Antiques tags should read state's rules... Many restrict miles per year driving etc. Example: DE Antique Vehicle, Law and Division Procedures
quote
(c) Any antique motor vehicle, registered pursuant to this section, shall be used only for participation in club activities, exhibits, tours, parades and similar uses, but in no event shall it be used for general transportation.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I bought a brand new cat off eBay for my duke four years ago. Cost me a grand total of $20... which included shipping!
I acquired an '88 Formula last July which still had the original cat on it. Needless to say, the cat was not functional any longer. Picked up a brand new cat for the Formula off eBay for $33 (including shipping).
I see ebay lists the same cat for the 2.5 or the 2.8. Is that correct? Also when getting one for $25 for example maybe without a reputable brand, is there any concern for quality?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-01-2014).]
I see ebay lists the same cat for the 2.5 or the 2.8. Is that correct?
I don't go by what eBay lists. I'm familiar enough with what fits on a Fiero to just get a "universal" cat of the correct size and configuration.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Also when getting one for $25 for example maybe without a reputable brand, is there any concern for quality?
It's not like some eBay cats are being being produced by a couple of guys in a back yard shed. I wouldn't be surprised if there are relatively few companies that make all the cats available on the market.
I forget the name brand of the cat I bought four years ago for the duke, but it's still performing well as the duke has no problem passing its annual smog test. And I autocross this Fiero. Engine breathes (and sounds) just fine. $20 for the cat, including shipping. Great deal.
Here's what I bought through eBay last fall for my newly acquired Formula, which will now be autocrossed...
Universal Catalytic Converter (70317) by Eastern Catalytic®. Shape: Oval. Size: 10" Body, 14" Overall Length. Inlet / Outer Diameter: 2.25" / 2.25". Standard Series, No sensor, no air tube.
Cat cost $21.50, and the shipping was $12 bucks. A total cost of $33.50 is not a lot to pay for a cat.
Originally posted by Patrick: Universal Catalytic Converter (70317) by Eastern Catalytic Cat cost $21.50, and the shipping was $12 bucks. A total cost of $33.50 is not a lot to pay for a cat.
They want $51 for that now, though it includes shipping, you got a good deal. Thanks
Personally I do not have a cat in my exhaust system (fiero only). It is not illegal in my province. I removed two cats from when my car was N/A. Now I just plainly have no physical room for two cats to be located (dual exhaust)
So I guess I am "childish, Irresponsible, Cruel and totally insane".
Originally posted by Patrick: Well, I don't know what's up about that.
Neither do I. When I read the inane ramblings in my inbox, my reaction was like --->
I'm not going to dwell on it, though. There are more important things to worry about.
The irony is, I mostly agree with the subject matter. I think a frequently driven car should have pollution controls, and an exhaust catalyst. For example, my daily driver has two catalysts (one built into the exhaust manifold, and another further downstream). It also has an A.I.R. pump. I wouldn't even consider deleting those devices. However, for infrequently driven cars, I don't think it's much of an issue. As someone else said, a cow probably farts more greenhouse gases than your weekend car.
Originally posted by Blacktree: It also has an A.I.R. pump...
You can wreck the cat by removing A.I.R. pump. W/o the pump can cause overheating the cat. pump to E manifold acts to burn off excess gas. Very common in carb setups. pump to cat... depending on cat design... most are 2 stage catalyst and pump injects air in between the stages.