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87 SE 5-Speed Transmission Shifter Issues by Telo
Started on: 03-31-2014 06:53 PM
Replies: 17 (412 views)
Last post by: Telo on 06-09-2014 09:59 AM
Telo
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Report this Post03-31-2014 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Live in MN, bought an '87 2.8 5-speed (I THINK based on the factory manual, the Muncie 5-speed), finally got a day above 60F yesterday and took her out. Had a great time.

Aside from an exhaust leak, which I will address in another post, the transmission lever will go into all gears just fine except 1st. Even at a dead stop, sometimes I had to fight the shifter to slide into first, sometimes I didn't.

Is this typically associated with a bad first gear syncronizer? If yes, will this necessitate rebuilding of the transmission? I've heard manuals are far easier to rebuild than automatics, I have never taken on either as a project. Just engine rebuilds.

Not sure I want to give this one over to a transmission shop, I have the car in a garage, but it's not a heated garage, and Minnesota only gets about 4 months of warm air every year.

All suggestions and opinions welcome.

[This message has been edited by Telo (edited 03-31-2014).]

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Report this Post03-31-2014 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Muncie 5 speed is usually referred to as the 'Getrag' around here....although they are the same transmission. Don't be in a hurry to rebuild it, however, as there may be some other issues that are easier to address. Do you know what fluid is in it? How about the shift cables....are they good? And lastly, what is the condition of the clutch? If the clutch is worn, it can adjust itself to the point where it is difficult to put the transmission in reverse and frist gear.
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Telo
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Report this Post03-31-2014 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

The Muncie 5 speed is usually referred to as the 'Getrag' around here....although they are the same transmission. Don't be in a hurry to rebuild it, however, as there may be some other issues that are easier to address. Do you know what fluid is in it? How about the shift cables....are they good? And lastly, what is the condition of the clutch? If the clutch is worn, it can adjust itself to the point where it is difficult to put the transmission in reverse and frist gear.


Can tell you for sure the clutch was replaced with a performance clutch about 5,000 miles ago, have the paperwork from the previous owner. Clutch feels really good between the gears that work, very sharp response.

Have to get back to you on fluid and cables. Need to research what I need to be looking for with those. Are you talking about clutch master cylinder fluid or transmission fluid?

[This message has been edited by Telo (edited 03-31-2014).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post03-31-2014 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For one the shifter should move left to right fairly easily. But even if tight may not be your problem. The Getrag by nature tends to be difficult to get into first gear. First thing is change the fluid to Penzoil syncromesh. Many auto parts stores carry it. Once done and driven for a bit let us know if that helps. Also where does the clutch begin to grab? If it starts to grab just off the floor you have to fix that problem also or the rest of the syncros will wear out in a short amount of time.

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Telo
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Report this Post03-31-2014 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:

For one the shifter should move left to right fairly easily. But even if tight may not be your problem. The Getrag by nature tends to be difficult to get into first gear. First thing is change the fluid to Penzoil syncromesh. Many auto parts stores carry it. Once done and driven for a bit let us know if that helps. Also where does the clutch begin to grab? If it starts to grab just off the floor you have to fix that problem also or the rest of the syncros will wear out in a short amount of time.



Will check that tomorrow and report back.
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Telo
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Report this Post03-31-2014 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:

For one the shifter should move left to right fairly easily. But even if tight may not be your problem. The Getrag by nature tends to be difficult to get into first gear. First thing is change the fluid to Penzoil syncromesh. Many auto parts stores carry it. Once done and driven for a bit let us know if that helps. Also where does the clutch begin to grab? If it starts to grab just off the floor you have to fix that problem also or the rest of the syncros will wear out in a short amount of time.



Additional question (and sorry if I don't know the terminology, engines are my thing, transmission work will be a new thing for me)... the path on which the shift lever rides all seems 'justified' to the left instead of the stick being dead center, facing up, the gears seem tight together. Shifter wise, they're all there, I've tested all 5 of them. But the shifter lever sits very leftish of center, and the gear pattern seems tight, meaning all 6 selection settings are physically very close together...maybe that's the way they're supposed to be. Is something bent underneath perhaps? Anything else to check?

[This message has been edited by Telo (edited 03-31-2014).]

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Telo
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Report this Post04-07-2014 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:

For one the shifter should move left to right fairly easily. But even if tight may not be your problem. The Getrag by nature tends to be difficult to get into first gear. First thing is change the fluid to Penzoil syncromesh. Many auto parts stores carry it. Once done and driven for a bit let us know if that helps. Also where does the clutch begin to grab? If it starts to grab just off the floor you have to fix that problem also or the rest of the syncros will wear out in a short amount of time.



Rodney,

Got a chance to get the car out today.

1. Clutch begins to engage about 1-3 inches off the floor.
2. I figured out how to make first gear work consistently, and that's push the clutch very hard to the floor at a dead stop. Far more than it seems I should have to.

Paperwork shows clutch replaced with a performance clutch, and clutch master and slave cylinder replaced in 2008, about 5K-12K miles ago, transmission filled with 5W-30 synthetic if I'm reading all receipts right.

What needs to be checked/adjusted?

[This message has been edited by Telo (edited 04-07-2014).]

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Rodney
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Report this Post04-07-2014 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The clutch pedal should be about an inch above the brake pedal. Kinda sounds like the clutch begins to engage too close to the floor. Hard to get into first with a Getrag is very common. Certainly change to the syncromesh fluid. I did. Helped some. Was noticeable. Was worth it.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
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Report this Post04-07-2014 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JacksonatorSend a Private Message to JacksonatorEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am having the exact same problem... let me know if you find out anything. I found that pushing down on the piece that rotates right out of the transmission that changes the gears will allow it to shift into first very easily.
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Telo
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Report this Post04-07-2014 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jacksonator:

I am having the exact same problem... let me know if you find out anything. I found that pushing down on the piece that rotates right out of the transmission that changes the gears will allow it to shift into first very easily.


I may attempt the oil change tomorrow. Plug looks like it's on the very bottom. Dipstick is a twist off on the front driver's side of the transmission.
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Report this Post04-08-2014 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Synchromesh is the way to go - get 2 quarts. I found 5-30 engine oil would "wear out", shifting would get bad and need changing about every year. The GM parts counter guys also recommended adding a 4oz bottle of AC Delco Limited Slip Axle Additive - never had any problems!




The Getrag has a side fill hole. But I ALWAYS fill through the dipstick hole.
It's way easier to stick a funnel in it. Pic is from 87 Owner's Manual.



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[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-08-2014).]

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Telo
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Report this Post04-08-2014 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierosound:

Synchromesh is the way to go - get 2 quarts. I found 5-30 engine oil would "wear out", shifting would get bad and need changing about every year. The GM parts counter guys also recommended adding a 4oz bottle of AC Delco Limited Slip Axle Additive - never had any problems!




The Getrag has a side fill hole. But I ALWAYS fill through the dipstick hole.
It's way easier to stick a funnel in it. Pic is from 87 Owner's Manual.




Ran it around a bit to warm up the oil. Changed the oil, just got back from running her around town a bit. I think that did help. I used exactly 2 quarts, filled it via the dipstick hole. Thanks to all who chimed in, and for that drawing.

[This message has been edited by Telo (edited 04-08-2014).]

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Report this Post04-08-2014 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fastblackSend a Private Message to fastblackEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a fairly new clutch with a trans of similar age on my 87 GT. Rodney's master AND slave just a year ago. Still a bit of a pain to go into 1st from time to time but I've found putting it in 2nd then immediately into 1st makes it easier. 5th to Reverse also helps with tricky reverse shifting. Do not ask me why this works, but it does (for me).
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Telo
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Report this Post06-08-2014 02:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rodney:

The clutch pedal should be about an inch above the brake pedal. Kinda sounds like the clutch begins to engage too close to the floor. Hard to get into first with a Getrag is very common. Certainly change to the syncromesh fluid. I did. Helped some. Was noticeable. Was worth it.


Resurrecting this thread now that I've had time to both drive and get used to my Fiero. The quote above, specifically I did remember, and is on my mind now.

First off, the transmission oil change to syncromesh made a LOT of difference with 1st gear on my Getrag. But getting to the quote above...

The clutch is not one inch in front of/above the brake pedal, it is even with it.

To get the Getrag to shift, the clutch basically has to be 'stomped' into the floor, to the point where the pedal literally can't go any further. I've had 5-speeds in other cars (particularly my 1984 Subaru) that didn't require this much pressure. Is this normal for a Fiero Getrag? The one gear that consistently grinds (and I have to press the clutch harder and harder and even then it doesn't always help) is reverse. But all the gears require the clutch to be pressed in hard, firm and all the way down.
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Report this Post06-09-2014 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you can change the dis-engagement point by rapidly pumping the clutch pedal, there is air in the hydraulics. The pedal should be about half-way down when the dis-engage happens, so there is still something wrong: either air in the system or a bent pedal assembly.
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Telo
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Report this Post06-09-2014 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

If you can change the dis-engagement point by rapidly pumping the clutch pedal, there is air in the hydraulics. The pedal should be about half-way down when the dis-engage happens, so there is still something wrong: either air in the system or a bent pedal assembly.


I was thinking along those lines but wasn't sure, as it will be the first time I will have bled a clutch system myself, is it as simple as popping the bleed screw on the slave cylinder end? And any specific fluids recommended for this car's clutch hydraulics?
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Report this Post06-09-2014 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is nothing simple about bleeding Fiero clutches. Sorry you have to learn on this car, but there are lots of threads available to instruct you. Use Dot 3 brake fluid.
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Telo
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Report this Post06-09-2014 09:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TeloSend a Private Message to TeloEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

There is nothing simple about bleeding Fiero clutches. Sorry you have to learn on this car, but there are lots of threads available to instruct you. Use Dot 3 brake fluid.


Understood, will do some searches.
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