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Brake Issues by craigsfiero2007
Started on: 03-21-2014 06:18 PM
Replies: 47 (590 views)
Last post by: craigsfiero2007 on 04-03-2014 04:51 PM
craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-21-2014 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay. I am on the brink of insanity here. I have bled and bled and bled and bled and bled the brakes on my Fiero. I have spent probably close to $40 just on brake fluid. I have tried Gravity Bleeding, Vacuum Bleeding and Reverse Bleeding. I still have air in the lines or something. The pedal goes straight to the floor, I have to pump the pedal alot to get any pressure. When I pop the lid on the Master Cylinder, there are millions of little bubbles in the fluid. When I press the pedal I can see the fluid in the master cylinder reservoir bubble, like its boiling type of bubbling.

I have replaced the Master Cylinder and bench bled it twice. Once using the push the piston method and reverse bleeding. I found it had a leak on the seal for the reservoir. So I put the old one back on after I bench bled it. A while ago, I replaced the Driver Side Caliper and bled the system when I did that and it has never been the same since. I have check everywhere for leaks and nothing. This has been an absolute nightmare.

Thoughts? Ideas?
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Report this Post03-21-2014 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bad MC and/or rear brake.
Getting bad new/rebuilt MC is common.

See brake section in my cave.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-21-2014 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

bad MC and/or rear brake.
Getting bad new/rebuilt MC is common.

See brake section in my cave.


What he said and I think I said the last time you asked about this, problem is you replaced them both at the same time so you are going to have to replace them one at a time this time to be sure, and waste another quart of brake fluid. Good luck, you really do need it.

Steve

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and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-21-2014 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What would be the likely cause of the brake fluid aerating?
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Strappado
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Report this Post03-21-2014 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for StrappadoClick Here to Email StrappadoSend a Private Message to StrappadoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not sure if its possible but perhaps a perforated line. i think the factory lines are steel??? are you loosing fluid as well. or perhaps tiny holes that will pass air but not the more viscous oil?
I'm just guessing here
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-22-2014 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Strappado:

Not sure if its possible but perhaps a perforated line. i think the factory lines are steel??? are you loosing fluid as well. or perhaps tiny holes that will pass air but not the more viscous oil?
I'm just guessing here


I just had someone press on the pedal while I laid under the car and put my ear up to every brake line. The Rear brake hoses are dry rotted but they don't sound like they are leaking. I will replace them anyways.

Is there a way to test the Master Cylinder? I bled it with my Phoenix Systems Reverse Bleeder and I was able to inject the fluid into it until I saw no more bubbles, I was even able to do this with the old Master Cylinder too. If it was bad, wouldn't it be close to impossible to bleed the air out. I just find it hard to believe that a brand new Master Cylinder is bad. When I got the Fiero the driver side rear caliper was just seized up, the other 3 brakes worked fine. WTF.

I considered that maybe the Power Brake Booster is bad, but there wouldn't be any action in the Master Cylinder if it was bad, would there?

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Report this Post03-22-2014 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for woodyhereClick Here to Email woodyhereSend a Private Message to woodyhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used the speed bleeders for the first time a few weeks ago. I have a power bleed and a vacuum bleed. I honestly felt the bleeders are the way to go, worked well and easily. The booster shouldn't have anything to do with the bubbles you saw in the MC. It usually says you have air in the brake lines. If you are replacing the rubber hoses you will need to rebleed the system anyway. I really feel for you. I know how frustrating it is to see the fluid just being thrown away and still not have brakes. I have been there all too often. Using the speed bleeders was the first time I only had to do the bleeding once. I had to bleed the system (dread1) because I just put in a rebuild MC and replaced a bad 1 year old rebuilt rear caliper. This rebuilt stuff is kind of a pain. Best of luck!

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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-22-2014 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After staring at my Fiero some more today. I noticed the new Driver Side Rear Caliper that I put on has the Bleeder Screw on the lower right hand side (it faces downward toward the ground). The rest of the calipers have the bleeder screw on the top. Something tells me its the wrong caliper and not even the wrong side caliper, the wrong caliper all together.

Thoughts?
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Report this Post03-22-2014 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's probably not right..can you post pics?
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Report this Post03-22-2014 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:
I noticed the new Driver Side Rear Caliper that I put on has the Bleeder Screw on the lower right hand side (it faces downward toward the ground).
Thoughts?


Is it possible to bleed all the air out if the bleeder screw is pointed down?

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Report this Post03-22-2014 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrittBSend a Private Message to BrittBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Even an incorrect caliper should still hold pressure. Flexible brake lines are the most likely suspect.
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-22-2014 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

It's probably not right..can you post pics?


I will take some tomorrow.

 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:


Is it possible to bleed all the air out if the bleeder screw is pointed down?


I am not sure. I thought all of the bleeder screws had to be faced upwards. The fact that mine is different means I could have the wrong caliper or some kind of mismatched homebrew caliper someone used as a core.

 
quote
Originally posted by BrittB:

Even an incorrect caliper should still hold pressure. Flexible brake lines are the most likely suspect.


True. But if this my caliper is wrong, it could require a larger amount of pressure to operate correctly. You are talking about the rear brake hoses, correct? My front brake hoses are Stainless Braided Hoses, for some odd reason the rear never got those even though they are sold as a set.
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Report this Post03-22-2014 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
All of my caliper replacements have been bled using a helper to press the brake pedal while I loosen the bleeder screw to let the bubbles out. I just let the fluid drip down into a pan until no bubbles are coming out.

I don't see how that would work if the screw is pointing down. Wouldn't the fluid just run out & leave air in?
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Report this Post03-22-2014 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Strappado:
Not sure if its possible but perhaps a perforated line. i think the factory lines are steel??? are you loosing fluid as well. or perhaps tiny holes that will pass air but not the more viscous oil?
I'm just guessing here

Not possible. Hole in anything = leaking fluid.

 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:
Is it possible to bleed all the air out if the bleeder screw is pointed down?

No.

 
quote
Originally posted by BrittB:
Even an incorrect caliper should still hold pressure. Flexible brake lines are the most likely suspect.

Air trapped in caliper is very compressible and will eat fluid from MC. Should cause brake light on but not always.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-23-2014 08:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:
I am not sure. I thought all of the bleeder screws had to be faced upwards. The fact that mine is different means I could have the wrong caliper or some kind of mismatched homebrew caliper someone used as a core.



Any one I have ever seen on any car has always been on the top, air rises to the top. bring it back and check it with another one they might have in stock, or order one from the fiero store. I have a set in the garage that need rebuilding but I think they are of a 84 but if you need a core they might work for you. PM me if you want that and I will mail it to you.

Steve
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Report this Post03-23-2014 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for notwohornsClick Here to Email notwohornsSend a Private Message to notwohornsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The bleeder has to be on the top. You have the wrong caliper or it's on the wrong side. It will hold air and it will be difficult to pump your bakes up to get pressure
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-23-2014 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Air trapped in caliper is very compressible and will eat fluid from MC. Should cause brake light on but not always.


So that brake caliper has air trapped in it. Would that make me have no brakes at all? The Brake Light is on unless I pump the crap out of that pedal. What do you mean by eating fluid from the MC? My brake fluid level does drop when I press the pedal but goes back up when I release the pedal.

 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Any one I have ever seen on any car has always been on the top, air rises to the top. bring it back and check it with another one they might have in stock, or order one from the fiero store. I have a set in the garage that need rebuilding but I think they are of a 84 but if you need a core they might work for you. PM me if you want that and I will mail it to you.

Steve


Thanks Steve, I appreciate it. I have an 88 though. Unfortunately, that caliper I have on the car, I ordered it from Amazon. So I will just have to get a rebuild kit and rebuild the old caliper that I took off the Fiero.


 
quote
Originally posted by notwohorns:

The bleeder has to be on the top. You have the wrong caliper or it's on the wrong side. It will hold air and it will be difficult to pump your bakes up to get pressure


I believe I have the wrong caliper all together. In order to get the brakes to somewhat work, I have to pump the crap out of them.

So from what I gather, the fact that I have the wrong caliper (thanks Amazon) means that chances are my Master Cylinder isn't my problem.

[This message has been edited by craigsfiero2007 (edited 03-23-2014).]

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Report this Post03-23-2014 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:

So from what I gather, the fact that I have the wrong caliper (thanks Amazon) means that chances are my Master Cylinder isn't my problem.



Nobody can say you don't have 2 problems. You can only find that out after you fix the first one.
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-23-2014 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:


Nobody can say you don't have 2 problems. You can only find that out after you fix the first one.


I know. But I doubt that the Master Cylinder is my problem, the new master cylinder does have a leak at the reservoir seal though. So I put the old one back on and it doesn't appear to have any leaks and seems to function properly. The 3 other brakes worked before I swapped out the driver side caliper because it was seized.
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-23-2014 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

craigsfiero2007

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Member since Aug 2007
Here is a picture.

My "New" Driver Side Caliper.




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Report this Post03-23-2014 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wrong side, with the bleeder down you will never get the air out. Therefore you will never have brakes unless you pump the crap out of the pedal to compress the air enough to push out the pads. The bubbles in your master could also be some of that air working it's way back. You could try bleeding the air out at the banjo fitting, but the best solution is to get the right caliper.

[This message has been edited by tebailey (edited 03-23-2014).]

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Report this Post03-23-2014 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Wrong side, with the bleeder down you will never get the air out. Therefore you will never have brakes unless you pump the crap out of the pedal to compress the air enough to push out the pads. The bubbles in your master could also be some of that air working it's way back. You could try bleeding the air out at the banjo fitting, but the best solution is to get the right caliper.



Ayup, didn't you realize that when you put in on and the bleeder screw was in a different position than the original? Start there, not sure if you ordered the wrong one or they gave you the wrong one. How you got it to fit is beyond me but that is the wrong caliper or at least for the wrong side of the car.

Steve
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-23-2014 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Ayup, didn't you realize that when you put in on and the bleeder screw was in a different position than the original? Start there, not sure if you ordered the wrong one or they gave you the wrong one. How you got it to fit is beyond me but that is the wrong caliper or at least for the wrong side of the car.

Steve


I ordered the right caliper but Amazon sent me the wrong one. Even the part number on the box is right. It bolted right on. I can't return it now, so it will go into my parts closet once I get a new one. I got anxious to get my Fiero going and it was cold outside when I was putting it on. Oh well, another life lesson.
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Report this Post03-23-2014 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:
A while ago, I replaced the Driver Side Caliper and bled the system when I did that and it has never been the same since.


How did you bleed the system with the caliper bleeder pointed downwards?

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Report this Post03-23-2014 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jpeelerClick Here to Email jpeelerSend a Private Message to jpeelerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:


I ordered the right caliper but Amazon sent me the wrong one. Even the part number on the box is right. It bolted right on. I can't return it now, so it will go into my parts closet once I get a new one. I got anxious to get my Fiero going and it was cold outside when I was putting it on. Oh well, another life lesson.


I have never had a problem returning anything to Amazon. I oder from them almost daily and have returned many many things in open and used condition. You can usually have them send you a replacement free of charge and ship the old one back in the received box. I would definitely give that a shot.
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Report this Post03-23-2014 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jpeeler:


I have never had a problem returning anything to Amazon. I oder from them almost daily and have returned many many things in open and used condition. You can usually have them send you a replacement free of charge and ship the old one back in the received box. I would definitely give that a shot.


I can't return it because I have had it too long.
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Report this Post03-23-2014 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:


I can't return it because I have had it too long.


the caliper should have numbers on it somewhere, check those online with the manufacturers and then show that to amazon, no matter how long its been, explain the them that you never got to put it on until now because of the weather. I bet they would take it back, what have you got to lose.

Steve
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Report this Post03-24-2014 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Worse case.... take the caliper off, get a block of wood/steel that is wider than rotor. Put this between the pads, and hang the caliper so the bleeder is at top. Now bleed the caliper. Once all the air is out, put caliper back on.
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Report this Post03-24-2014 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Worse case.... take the caliper off, get a block of wood/steel that is wider than rotor. Put this between the pads, and hang the caliper so the bleeder is at top. Now bleed the caliper. Once all the air is out, put caliper back on.


Great idea.
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Report this Post03-24-2014 09:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
next question, is the e-brake lever rotating the center rod in the correct direction, or is it retracting the piston when e-brake is pulled?
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-24-2014 09:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I was in the shop yesterday I looked at the set I have that needs to be rebuilt, I label everything I take off any of my vehicles with a paint pen. these are off a 86 SE and if you want them they are yours, something to think about if you want to learn how to rebuild them, you used to be able to buy rebuild kits years ago for calipers, not sure if you still can. but it basically came with a bunch of seals, sand the bore if it is lightly rusted or use a honing stone and drill.

just a heads up.

edit to add I am not sure about the ratcheting mechanism of them.

Ayup you can still buy the rebuild kits

http://www.autopartswarehou...caliper+rebuild+kits

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 03-24-2014).]

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Report this Post03-24-2014 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

When I was in the shop yesterday I looked at the set I have that needs to be rebuilt, I label everything I take off any of my vehicles with a paint pen. these are off a 86 SE and if you want them they are yours, something to think about if you want to learn how to rebuild them, you used to be able to buy rebuild kits years ago for calipers, not sure if you still can. but it basically came with a bunch of seals, sand the bore if it is lightly rusted or use a honing stone and drill.

just a heads up.

edit to add I am not sure about the ratcheting mechanism of them.

Steve


He has '88 calipers on the car
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Report this Post03-24-2014 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


He has '88 calipers on the car


Figures, oh well, I tried.

edit to add the rebuild kit for that is available for those as well if you want to rebuild them yourself.

http://www.autopartswarehou...per%20rebuild%20kits

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 03-24-2014).]

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Report this Post03-27-2014 04:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well. I got my caliper in the mail today and behold the hole for the brake hose on the caliper is completely stripped out. Awesome. But I did get one of the new brake hoses installed.
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jaskispyder
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Report this Post03-27-2014 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yup, you would think they would check the threads as part of the rebuild....
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Csjag
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Report this Post03-27-2014 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I bought my rear calipers at the local autozone for $55 each after the core charge so returning a bad one would be easy.
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Tooshea
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Report this Post03-27-2014 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToosheaClick Here to Email ToosheaSend a Private Message to ToosheaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by craigsfiero2007:

Well. I got my caliper in the mail today and behold the hole for the brake hose on the caliper is completely stripped out. Awesome. But I did get one of the new brake hoses installed.


I feel for you brother.. went through a water pump issue now Im working on the brake lines.. I have two leaks I just cant fix.. I guess making a double flare is a rare art form and only taught in the dark parts of a garage.. I wish all I had to do was swap parts..

We'll be down that way in late spring. Beach time!

------------------
Tim and Lynn
1987 Fastback GT in restore mode..

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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post03-31-2014 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My Fiero is close to being on the road now. The brakes work, they just need some more bleeding to make them 100% safe. Thanks for the help/advice everyone. +'s or bumps (if I have already given you a + in the past, it will bump) for everyone.
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jaskispyder
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Report this Post04-01-2014 08:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, the fix was? Different caliper?
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craigsfiero2007
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Report this Post04-01-2014 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for craigsfiero2007Click Here to Email craigsfiero2007Send a Private Message to craigsfiero2007Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

So, the fix was? Different caliper?


Yeah. The correct caliper that works properly makes a huge difference.
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