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Sluggish performance, degradation in MPG & multiple codes by mckaymotoworks
Started on: 03-20-2014 12:50 PM
Replies: 105 (1150 views)
Last post by: mckaymotoworks on 04-28-2014 09:25 AM
mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-26-2014 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sometimes, but not all. Especially noticeable after I replaced the EGR, plugs, wires, PCV and then reset ECM last Friday. Really noticeable in the morning, that's new after what I did Friday.
If I keep the car, I would replace everything anyway since the car is so old, has been sitting and everything appears to be original. Of course I wouldn't just throw money at it chasing problems if it were newer, but these components are all so old, and bound to fail at some point given their age. It's $40, worth trying in my opinion.
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Report this Post03-26-2014 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just thought of something: My 85 duke is also a car that sat for 8 years before I got it running. It was running poorly after I tuned it up and replaced the O2 sensor. I replaced the TPS and it still ran the same. I decided to check the timing and found it was way off, I set it to 10 degrees and what a difference it made! Try that and make sure you jump the aldi connector to get a correct reading
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Report this Post03-26-2014 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

I just thought of something: My 85 duke is also a car that sat for 8 years before I got it running. It was running poorly after I tuned it up and replaced the O2 sensor. I replaced the TPS and it still ran the same. I decided to check the timing and found it was way off, I set it to 10 degrees and what a difference it made! Try that and make sure you jump the aldi connector to get a correct reading


Great idea, that was in the back of my mind and meant to make that suggestion to my thread. That would fit with the symptoms.
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Report this Post03-27-2014 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did you get a chance to check the timing?
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-27-2014 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not yet, trying to find a gun to borrow. Buying a good vintage Craftsman in the box, but do not want to wait until delivery obviously.
I have a friend who may have the gun and help to make the job easier. I'll update when I've completed.
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Report this Post03-27-2014 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what did you gap the plugs at?
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-27-2014 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

what did you gap the plugs at?


60 per Workshop manual and the materials I have collected.
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Report this Post03-27-2014 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Remove the Dexcool!

Won't change the drive-ability but will save repairs.
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Report this Post03-27-2014 05:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FadingawaySend a Private Message to FadingawayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I replaced my tps today, throttle response greatly improved (junk yard piece) but I still have a misfire in the midrange myself but all of the power is there now what little there is. My next purchase will be a new oxygen sensor last thing on my list.
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Report this Post03-27-2014 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Glad you found the problem
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-27-2014 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is the distributor cap for my 84' suppose to have two hooks instead of threads? They turn via a slot screw head, grabaround the edge of the distributor bottom.

The ones I see on the web and FS have the threads.
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Report this Post03-28-2014 06:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
can't remember... I thought it had threads.
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-28-2014 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Plan to check timing and casting marks this weekend. Also inspect the distributor, I seem to remember it did not have threads made into the housing for that style of cap. To clarify what is installed on it now, it has spring loaded bolts, with "L" shaped hooks on the bottom, that when pressed down and turned right, place these "hooks" under the bottom lip of the distributor, pulling the cap down onto the distributor.

Another oddity of note, I have checked my mileage over the last few days. I usually add more fuel at 150 miles to be safe since the sender is broken. It's still getting 30 MPG, this being after I discovered the loose plug boot, as I was not checking then. The 3 times I have added fuel this week, it's taking 5 gallons at 150 miles, out of a 10 gallon tank, theoretically it should get 300 miles to the tank. No codes still, so what mechanical issue could cause the sluggish throttle response but still allow it to get 30 MPG?

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-28-2014).]

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Report this Post03-28-2014 09:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I see hooks and bolts... from photos online. So, double check what you have.
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-28-2014 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

I see hooks and bolts... from photos online. So, double check what you have.


Of course. Odd that most pics and even FS, which I called them to confirm, show an 84' cap being threaded.
What about the mileage staying consistent and good even though it accelerates like a tractor?

Thanks for all your help and responses.

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Report this Post03-28-2014 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:


Of course. Odd that most pics and even FS, which I called them to confirm, show an 84' cap being threaded.
What about the mileage staying consistent and good even though it accelerates like a tractor?

Thanks for all your help and responses.


clogged exhaust, timing, too high of expectations

Anyone of these
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post03-28-2014 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


clogged exhaust, timing, too high of expectations

Anyone of these


Hahahaha. timing and exhaust seem more plausible at this point. I'm 36 and have driven/owned some slow oddballs. The car did sit up, maybe there's a nest in the exhaust. Timing first, then I'll know where to hunt next.

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mckaymotoworks

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This is one weird little car. The temp gauge went to 220 in traffic for the first time since flush and adding thermostat. Went back to 160 and stayed there once I started moving. Plan to flush Dexcool and refill with green.

And we have a code, 24. VSS, weird. I checked 4 times to be certain.
And it's slugging again though not as hard. I'll check timing tomorrow
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Report this Post04-03-2014 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Checked timing, it was quite a bit advanced above 16 degrees. Forgot to check it before we adjusted with the A/B pins jumped to compare.
We set with the A/B pins jumped to 8 degrees, but the timing mark wobbles with pins jumped or not, I see no mention of the timing jumping in the tutorials.
We checked cyl 1 and 4 to compare, pretty close.

It should set close to dead still on the 8 degree mark, correct?

With the pins jumped, it's jumping/wobbling between 4-10 but does sit on the 8 degree more than jumping. 10-12ish with pins unconnected. Why is it wobbling?
I think the PO must have set it previously not knowing the A/B pins need to be jumped to properly set the timing.

Also suspect another issue is contributing to the symptoms though it does seem to run/accelerate better now that we have it in the ballpark.
Idle sits at 950, but the needle jumps (related to timing mark jump?), more so in gear/under load. I posted about idle issues with blinkers etc on, suspect the alternator is going bad as well.
I'll have it tested tomorrow.

Of note, I did replace the wires, plugs (gapped to 60) a few weeks back. The cap and rotor appear brand new.

Timing chain or distributor worn out possibly?

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 04-03-2014).]

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mckaymotoworks

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.

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 04-03-2014).]

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Report this Post04-04-2014 07:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After looking through the Search/Archives and scouring the net, the two most likely possibilities are 1. Worn timing chain, 2. Distributor
Also see mention of the rubber disintegrating on the balancer?
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Report this Post04-04-2014 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

After looking through the Search/Archives and scouring the net, the two most likely possibilities are 1. Worn timing chain, 2. Distributor
Also see mention of the rubber disintegrating on the balancer?


It has a gear, no chain. The gear is a fiber one (oem).... if it wears, it just strips (been there, done that)

Do your best to get the timing at what the decklid sticker says. The 4cyl doesn't idle smoothly (84-87)... so it is a little harder to set timing, compared to a V8

The balancer issue has been more on the V6 side of things.

Oh, and I will have to look at your blinker issue, as I didn't see that. Check the battery wires for corrosion and check the ground.

[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 04-04-2014).]

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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post04-04-2014 07:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


It has a gear, no chain. The gear is a fiber one (oem).... if it wears, it just strips (been there, done that)

Once you check the timing, we will know more.

The balancer issue has been more on the V6 side of things.



Yeah I just saw that it's gear to gear in the workshop manual. We did check timing, see my 3rd post above. It's jumping not sitting steady on 8 degrees, floating between 4-10 degrees.

 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

Checked timing, it was quite a bit advanced above 16 degrees. Forgot to check it before we adjusted with the A/B pins jumped to compare.
We set with the A/B pins jumped to 8 degrees, but the timing mark wobbles with pins jumped or not, I see no mention of the timing jumping in the tutorials.
We checked cyl 1 and 4 to compare, pretty close.

It should set close to dead still on the 8 degree mark, correct?

With the pins jumped, it's jumping/wobbling between 4-10 but does sit on the 8 degree more than jumping. 10-12ish with pins unconnected. Why is it wobbling?
I think the PO must have set it previously not knowing the A/B pins need to be jumped to properly set the timing.

Also suspect another issue is contributing to the symptoms though it does seem to run/accelerate better now that we have it in the ballpark.
Idle sits at 950, but the needle jumps (related to timing mark jump?), more so in gear/under load. I posted about idle issues with blinkers etc on, suspect the alternator is going bad as well.
I'll have it tested tomorrow.

Of note, I did replace the wires, plugs (gapped to 60) a few weeks back. The cap and rotor appear brand new.

Timing chain or distributor worn out possibly?

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 04-04-2014).]

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mckaymotoworks

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I talked with Justin at the FS, he said either distributor or possibly a missing tooth from the cam gear.
How can I test/check the distributor to confirm or rule it out since it's the easier of the two?
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Report this Post04-04-2014 09:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you sure you don't have a misfire related to a bad plug wire/plug/cap.... or even a bad coil? It idea that the gear has a bad tooth is pretty slim, as they just strip. It isn't like a metal gear.

You can pull the distributor, but I would look to make sure you have consistent spark from each wire (timing light would help, or you can buy a $5 spark tester that goes inline of the wire.).

Does the timing smooth out when you rev the engine?
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Report this Post04-04-2014 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Are you sure you don't have a misfire related to a bad plug wire/plug/cap.... or even a bad coil? It idea that the gear has a bad tooth is pretty slim, as they just strip. It isn't like a metal gear.

You can pull the distributor, but I would look to make sure you have consistent spark from each wire (timing light would help, or you can buy a $5 spark tester that goes inline of the wire.).

Does the timing smooth out when you rev the engine?


Didn't think to check that at the time, assuming since my wires, plugs, cap and rotor are new. But we can test that to rule them out.
The composite cam gear can't lose a tooth or more and skip? It just totally strips out?
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Report this Post04-04-2014 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anything is possible with a bad gear... but you won't get far... not driving 50 miles a day. Mine was fine one minute then bang... dead the next. 40+K on the odo when it happened. I replaced it with a metal gear.

I have to add that the 84-87 2.5l do not idle smooth, for the most part. I even had a shop look into my 9K mile '87 and they said it was just normal. I also experienced that with my '84. But the 88 was nice and smooth, thanks to the balancing unit that was installed.

When reved up or put under load, my engine smoothed out. If you are not getting it to smooth out, then I would be looking for an ignition issue. Now, it could be the timing gear, but again, it won't be long for this world, if that is the case.

[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 04-04-2014).]

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Report this Post04-04-2014 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, so that leaves what you suggested or the distributor. I'll check those over the weekend.
Thanks for the response.
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Report this Post04-04-2014 09:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
http://www.westcoastfieros....m_posts.asp?TID=1381

Have you checked fuel pressure and flow?
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jaskispyder

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what is your MPG? Can you check your 0-60 time?
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Report this Post04-04-2014 10:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's getting between 28-30 last I checked. I will check again next time I fill up. The sender is bad so no gauge, but I fill up at 150 miles, and it usually only takes 5 gallons, so it's used about 5 gallons 5/150= 30
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Report this Post04-04-2014 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

It's getting between 28-30 last I checked. I will check again next time I fill up. The sender is bad so no gauge, but I fill up at 150 miles, and it usually only takes 5 gallons, so it's used about 5 gallons 5/150= 30


sounds about right for a 4cyl auto, which means it may be running pretty close to correct. There may be an issue with sluggish take-off, but the engine is running well, with that MPG.

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Report this Post04-04-2014 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You may be absolutely right, but the wobbly timing. It should sit close to dead still, so there's an issue there to be found.
Anything else besides to distributor, plugs, wires cap etc to look for? Vacuum?

Also need to get to the bottom of the low idle when it's in gear. Idles well, except the slight pulse which might be relayed to the wobbly timing mark? Idle drops and car vibrates in gear, like it's about to die. But in Park or Neutral it's at 950.

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 04-04-2014).]

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Report this Post04-04-2014 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what is RPM in gear? Check to make sure someone didn't try changing the idle adjustment screw...
http://www.autozone.com/aut..._/P-0900c152801da810
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Report this Post04-04-2014 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

what is RPM in gear? Check to make sure someone didn't try changing the idle adjustment screw...
http://www.autozone.com/aut..._/P-0900c152801da810


I'll have to check that as well this weekend.

The car seems to do better than before, but I am still noticing slow to non existent acceleration between 50-60 MPH. I was on a slight hill on a 4 lane, I floored it and it barely if at all picked up speed. Confirmed a few weeks ago a nice fan pattern from the injector spray, inside of TBI looked clean.

If I let off the gas, it seems to kick down to gear as I would expect it to on the throttle without me releasing it. Suspecting the TPS, going by the descriptions I've read.

Here's a video of the idle and electrical pulse when under load I've described.
84' Fiero SE idle issue

[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 04-04-2014).]

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Report this Post04-04-2014 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good video... it looks pretty normal to me. I don't have a 4 cyl to check it against, but it looks pretty normal (rpm wise). The blink/tach issue could be a few things. Clean the connections on the battery, check for corrosion, check wires to alternator. Run a new ground from chassis to engine.

When you give it gas on the road, does the tranny kick down? The car should release from torque converter lockup (about 300 or 400 rpms), then it should drop down to a lower gear if you really give it gas. It could be that the kickdown isn't properly adjusted, or disconnected?? (which means that would need to be adjusted... but I wouldn't do this without knowing for sure).

Oh, and check for a vac. leak, just to be sure. Cap off things if you need to, just to double check. Did you check the IAC and the port the air runs through?

[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 04-04-2014).]

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Report this Post04-04-2014 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I can check grounds. Just seems odd the idle goes so rough it feels like it's about to die.
Yes going down the road it seems fine at times, it does kickdown sometimeswhen you floor it, but others it stands still with very little speed pickup. But up any incline, slight or tall, or between 45-55 if you floor it, doesn't seem to kick down.

If you floor it, it just kinda stays still. I know it's 90hp and an auto, but it should react to the throttle input. I will check over the IAC, vacuum ports/lines again. It just really feels like something isn't working in tandem with the throttle input I am giving it.
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jaskispyder
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Report this Post04-04-2014 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks:

I can check grounds. Just seems odd the idle goes so rough it feels like it's about to die.
Yes going down the road it seems fine at times, it does kickdown sometimeswhen you floor it, but others it stands still with very little speed pickup. But up any incline, slight or tall, or between 45-55 if you floor it, doesn't seem to kick down.

If you floor it, it just kinda stays still. I know it's 90hp and an auto, but it should react to the throttle input. I will check over the IAC, vacuum ports/lines again. It just really feels like something isn't working in tandem with the throttle input I am giving it.


The kick down is not electric, but via a cable.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090907-2-093986.html
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post04-04-2014 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
He never updated it with photos. I'll look in the workshop manual.
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mckaymotoworks
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Report this Post04-04-2014 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mckaymotoworksClick Here to visit mckaymotoworks's HomePageSend a Private Message to mckaymotoworksEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

mckaymotoworks

521 posts
Member since Jan 2014
What about this, I did recently get a Code 24 about the VSS: Kickdown cable? TPS?
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