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gen 1 headlight woe. by AL87
Started on: 03-12-2014 09:50 PM
Replies: 8 (173 views)
Last post by: AL87 on 03-14-2014 11:40 AM
AL87
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Report this Post03-12-2014 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
okay, so I just rebuilt a set of gen 1 headlight motors and installed them.

when they are off and down and I turn them on:
the LH does nothing, no clicking or twitching from the relay or motor.
the RH goes up when the switch is in the off position.

when I disconnect the blue single wires from both and move them manually to the up position and plug in the blue wires:
the LH goes down.
the motor twitches and wants to go up.

when they are moved up manually with the blue wires disconnected and the lights are on.
they both stay up.

I feel like the plugs that go into the relays are backwards on at least one of them.
I'll get back on here after I do a few things, (clean the grounds, check the headlight motor relay plugins. etc)
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AL87
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Report this Post03-12-2014 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
cleaned the grounds, and swapped the relays around, and then grabbed a few more and swapped them in and out.

I figured out which one was the isolation relay and then I found one good relay now, since it makes each motor go up and down when tested.
it appears that whoever had the car and worked on it before me got them mixed up, and one was completely dead.
now to find a good headlight motor relay and im done!

EDIT: for anyone who has mixed up the relays, here you go.
the isolation relay is part #10022620 and should be marked as such.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 03-12-2014).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post03-13-2014 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The harness connectors on both the isolation and motor relays are identical and will plug in, but they won't work if interchanged. Each plug is specific to a location in the relay and can't be interchanged within a relay.

Since you rebuilt the motors and one operates opposite of what it should, I'm thinking you may have removed the motor windings from the case half. The motor windings must be installed in a particular orientation to make the motor run the right direction, depending upon which side it's on. If you put the windings back in at 180 degrees, it will go up when the switch is off, and it will go down when the switch is on.

If a replacement relay doesn't fix your remaining problem, remove the motor and look inside at the brushes. They tend to snag on the commutator and break off when the limiter assembly is reinstalled. It's usually not noticeable because they're back inside the motor.
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AL87
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Report this Post03-13-2014 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

The harness connectors on both the isolation and motor relays are identical and will plug in, but they won't work if interchanged. Each plug is specific to a location in the relay and can't be interchanged within a relay.

Since you rebuilt the motors and one operates opposite of what it should, I'm thinking you may have removed the motor windings from the case half. The motor windings must be installed in a particular orientation to make the motor run the right direction, depending upon which side it's on. If you put the windings back in at 180 degrees, it will go up when the switch is off, and it will go down when the switch is on.

If a replacement relay doesn't fix your remaining problem, remove the motor and look inside at the brushes. They tend to snag on the commutator and break off when the limiter assembly is reinstalled. It's usually not noticeable because they're back inside the motor.


the left goes up and down, and the right goes up with the switch off. but doesn't go down. I haven't sealed the motors yet because of issues like this.
one of the motors was rebuilt before I got to them and all I did was swap out the plastic gears for Rodney's metal ones. so I'll get the relay and go from there.

EDIT: by windings, do you mean the stator/magnet? or do you mean the threaded shaft with the commutator on it?

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 03-13-2014).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post03-13-2014 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm referring to the Stator Magnet,. You can't put the commutator windings in backward. Usually when you take them apart, there will be a small white spot of the latex sealant on the stator/magnet. If I recall, that's always on the side of the small case half. If It's not there when I open the motor, I take a magic marker and mark a big X on the surface of the stator for reference. Early on, when I first started rebuilding Gen 1 motors, I put too many of them in backward and had to pull them apart again. With one headlight functioning properly, you know it isn't the switch that's the problem.

With the motor running just one way might be a relay, but it could also be that one of the brushes has broken off. Turn on the switch and try banging the top of the motor with the side of your fist to see if it will retract. Swapping motor relays from side to side would diagnose the relay issue.
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AL87
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Report this Post03-14-2014 03:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i was able to diagnose the headlight motor problem after I found a fully functioning isolator relay (HARD TO FIND)

after that, I could easily tell what was working and what wasn't...
the two headlight motor relays were only working one way. (up but not down, or down but not up)

and the case, I saw that small bit of white sealant too!
it wasn't a good way to tell which side is which, I etched an X onto the side that would face the smaller headlight motor half.

after that, I used black sealant and put everything back together, and called it a day. motors work beautifully!

(we seriously need someone who can remanufactuer that isolator relay... maybe me, lol. XD )
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fierofool
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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I checked into the possibility of getting them manufactured, citing the number of cars that might use them. It was with a Chinese (Singapore) company, of course. They weren't interested because of the low return on sales quantity, even if they sold direct to the customer. I think someone posted here that they had built a replacement solid state or modified a different relay for that purpose.
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Rodney
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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Years ago I took a used isolation relay apart. The contacts looked brand new yet. I think many want to blame the relays when the main problem is the wiring system with degraded connections and poor grounds etc.

------------------
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Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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AL87
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Report this Post03-14-2014 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AL87Click Here to Email AL87Send a Private Message to AL87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
it could be something as simple as a bad ground... or something a little less likely, a broken connection under the wiring insulation...
The harness doesn't move around much if it does. I was digging around to find and swap around relays to figure out which worked for about 2-3 hours...
I knew I had to find a working isolator relay first, two of the ones I had weren't %100 and would only work one way, or not at all.
luckily I found one thread with a sentence that had the part number for them... after I found a good one, I just started swapping out motor relays until I found some that worked... unfortunately for me I only found one working motor relay, BUT I was able to get one for 15 bucks from advance auto to save me.

I normally wouldn't sweat bullets if the car I was working on was mine, but when you gotta get a car going before a certain time for someone else... yeah... XD

I'm surprised there aren't isolator relays though... just thinking ahead to that one day... when there wont be a single one working...
I guess that'll be the day we all go to flushmounts

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 03-14-2014).]

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