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Ecotec Swap! by 4thfiero
Started on: 03-12-2014 06:05 PM
Replies: 27 (1692 views)
Last post by: wftb on 03-18-2014 03:24 PM
4thfiero
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Report this Post03-12-2014 06:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys...

So i posted a while ago saying I was going to do an LS3 swap...but i abandoned that, the engine is out of my price range. I had always wanted an Ecotec Fiero, but the wiring scared me off...I was referred to a company in Michigan caled Alpha Fab that deals with Ecotec engines as a stand alone system. Even the new ones! I called them and told them I wanted one of there engines and harnesses in my Fiero. And it looks really promising...I have a few question for the electrical gurus though...

As far as using Roger Thelin's mounting kit, and Alpha Fab's Engine and harness...i should be able to get the engine mounted and wired to run np...the trick of course is getting the Fiero electrical to work too without the Fiero ecu....in theory (and this is my question...)

1) the headlights, blower motor, interior/exterior lights, windshield washer sprayers and wipers....heat....and tail lights...are they an "independent system" meaning that they dont need the Fiero ECU to work? We are thinking that Alpha's Harness can wire to either the stock gauges or aftermarket autometer gauges. then just cut the tail light harness and wire it directly to the brake light and tranny reverse sensor? The rest of the stuff should work with the Fiero fuse box and ignition power? is that correct???

p.s. im selling my 92 Getrag 5 speed with dickman's kit already installed and working, it litterally has like 500 kilometers on it, its mint! inside and out! Looking to sell it for 400$

Also selling the Fiero 2.8 engine if anyone wants it, just make an offer, the engine has no codes, full tune up, perfect air pressure no vac leaks, perfect fuel pressure. however 4 out of 6 Cylinders are getting tired as per a compression test...engine has about 200,000 km on it. For you stock guys out there that want an undamaged block to rebuild or mod or whatever, its avail soon in april.

Thanks guys!
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Report this Post03-12-2014 06:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What ECM are they using?

Everything on the Fiero will work w/o the stock fiero ecm except the AC. You have to ground 1 wire (light blue one if memory serves) off the AC relay (ECM normally grounds it) and then it works too.

You will likely need to add the Fiero oil pressure sender to the engine for your oil pressure gauge to work.
A 3 wire temp sender from a 98 Camaro has metric threads and the analog temp gauge output that will work with the Fiero temp gauge.
Speedo wiring depends on the transmission, but should not be any issue (might need the buffer circuit for the ecm to drive the speedo).
Tach wiring - as long as there is a tach output from the ecm you should be able to get the Fiero tach to work (might require tach recalibration or a signal booster circuit)
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4thfiero
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Report this Post03-12-2014 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I dont know exactly what ecm they use, ill have a link to there site below..im really hoping this will open the door to Ecotec swaps out there! If what you are saying is true, then this is gonna work well!!!

I don't have AC in my car...so that wont be an issue. Just heat. It's cold in Winnipeg, haha.
Also to simlify things, ill probably use aftermarket gauges. There harness will wire to whatever guage I need. Also they are wiring in an OBDII sensor so i can FINALLY hook up my Magden MB.1 computer!

http://www.alphafabindustries.com/

[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 03-12-2014).]

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4thfiero
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Report this Post03-12-2014 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

4thfiero

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Also im using the F23 with LSD for the swap!
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wftb
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Report this Post03-13-2014 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
AEM makes stand alone controllers and harnesses for just about any engine made now .I used the OEM cavalier ECM and BCM on my swap and tuned out the VATS with HP tuners .Like was stated before , the fiero ECM is mostly engine related and you dont need it .None of these stand alone packages were available when I did my swap , but using OEM stuff from a wreckers I think would still be cheaper .I have a Megasquirt package made up by a vendor that I may use on something othertan a fiero , but I dont intend to put it in my Fiero .I have never even opened the box , I bought it from the original purchaser that had it for sale in the mall here .Good luck with your swap , I really enjoy mine .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-13-2014).]

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4thfiero
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Report this Post03-13-2014 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks man! I'll post pics once it's all done and get some during the build too!
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4thfiero
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Report this Post03-13-2014 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well i have discussed most of the details with Alpha Fab, gonna do a 2.4 LE5 ecotec with VVT and a stage 2 turbo kit getting 301 HP to the wheels!! 350 at the crank! Fantastic. I was originally gonna do an lsj or lnf, but they dont have VVT and the turbo set up works super well with it, nearly 100% volumetric efficiency. The 2.4 has forged internals and can take boost like an lnf. They also have more low end torque. and super easy to tune, where the lnf is a lot harder to tune. After 3 days of phone chats i decided there specialty, the le5 is def the better choice.

Right now working on a custom intercooler, thinking of doing one under the passenger side decklid vent where the battery was...out of the way and when it rains or snows, help cool the intercooler. Also nice and close to the engine so next to no turbo lag.

Super pumped!
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Report this Post03-14-2014 05:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alpha Fab's turbo kits use the original intake for the LE5 which is a plastic manifold. If I were going turbo on that engine I would purchase one of the aluminum intakes for that engine. There are at least 3 aftermarket companies that make aluminum intakes for that engine, and I know two of them are designed to use a 75mm throttle body from the LS1.
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Report this Post03-14-2014 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The LE5 has a cast iron crank and powdered metal rods .The rods are a little beefier than the 2.2's rods but they are not forged .I don't know where this idea came from about the LE5 but it is not true unless they have been changed recently .If you want the forged internals and a turbo , go LNF . About 4 years ago I visited Mallet Cars in Ohio and bought some parts off them .They had over 100 LE5's sitting on palletts , all with less than 500 miles on them .They were takeouts from Solstices and Saturn Skys that had LS motors installed in them by Mallet .Sounds like the company you are dealing with might have picked them up .
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Report this Post03-14-2014 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry, yes, the LE5 has semi forged pistons, the newer engines post 2008 have cast iron internals and crank, but the le5's around 2006-2008 have a forged crank and internals, the only thing that isnt fully forged is the pistons. Obv one day after the swap years down the road ill get fully forged pistons.

plastic or aluminum i dont think matters that much at this point, if they make an aluminum one i'll switch later, they have tested there setups up to 400-600 hp with stage 3 kits successfully. I will double check though today if the LE5 with a stage 2 comes with plastic intake or if they change it when doing a stage 2 turbo.

[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 03-14-2014).]

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4thfiero
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Report this Post03-14-2014 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also, bc of this swap, the rear tail light harness is apart of the engine harness...theoretically...can the tail light harness be cut/disconnected from the engine one and wired directly to my brake pedal and tranny and work independently??
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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:
So i posted a while ago saying I was going to do an LS3 swap...but i abandoned that, the engine is out of my price range.!


So, what is your price range then, exactly?

Are you absolutely certain the Ectoec will be within it, especially if you're buying standalone ECM kits and such? Aftermarket ECM/harness setups often run the price up very quickly. You'd be looking at a few thousand dollars just for that.
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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
the whole swap with everything in will probably cost between 8-10k, a brand new ls3 was like 8k by itself new....so i switched, the engine and harness was like 2k lower
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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I find this quite interesting. Didn't realize that stand-alone PCMs were becoming so common.

 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

Also, bc of this swap, the rear tail light harness is apart of the engine harness...theoretically...can the tail light harness be cut/disconnected from the engine one and wired directly to my brake pedal and tranny and work independently??


The "harness side" (as opposed to the "car side") of the C500 connector is separated into two "shells". One shell contains the engine wiring, and the other shell contains the tail light wiring. It may not be readily apparent if you haven't unplugged C500 yet.
The only lighting wiring that is in the engine harness is the reverse lights. Two wires.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-14-2014).]

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Report this Post03-14-2014 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So when my 2.8 engine harness is removed...is it possible to wire up my tail lights another way to make them work?? Bcc the Ecotec harness wont be connected to it. My c500 connector was removed and the wires are just spliced together individually.

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


The "harness side" (as opposed to the "car side") of the C500 connector is separated into two "shells". One shell contains the engine wiring, and the other shell contains the tail light wiring. It may not be readily apparent if you haven't unplugged C500 yet.
The only lighting wiring that is in the engine harness is the reverse lights. Two wires.


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Report this Post03-14-2014 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The C500 "car side" connector was removed? Only about half of those wires went to the engine. The other half went to (surprise) the tail light harness, through the other shell.
If it's just bare wires there, they can be spliced into the tail light harness wiring. Won't be a lot of fun, though.
I wouldn't imagine that the colors would match, between the car wiring and the taillight harness wiring.
You'll need a shop manual. Preferably the HELM manual.

I hope I'm understanding you correctly.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-14-2014).]

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Report this Post03-14-2014 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

the whole swap with everything in will probably cost between 8-10k, a brand new ls3 was like 8k by itself new....so i switched, the engine and harness was like 2k lower


That didn't really answer the question though. You have $15K to spend on the whole thing? You want to spend $15K? Parts are only a part of the price.

How much can you spend?

General rule of thumb is to take how much you think it will cost, and multiply by at least 1.5, because you're going to end up spending that much.
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Report this Post03-14-2014 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I technically have 30k i can spend on this project, but i wont, i want to keep it to 10 or under. right now im at 7500, then its however much the laybor is.


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Report this Post03-14-2014 02:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Awesome to hear you're going for it, 4thfiero! All the old-skoolers keep harping on cost/complexity when I, as well as others, have shown time and again the affordability and availability of kits/parts to make this swap more than possible, even using the LNF/LSJ but especially w/ a L61/LE9. They'll pay $10k for a V8 swap but not for a 4-banger techno marvel. I am working on getting my capital for it but I'm not far behind you on taking the plunge. I'll be watching w/ intense interest.

[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 03-14-2014).]

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Report this Post03-14-2014 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

Sorry, yes, the LE5 has semi forged pistons, the newer engines post 2008 have cast iron internals and crank, but the le5's around 2006-2008 have a forged crank and internals, the only thing that isnt fully forged is the pistons. Obv one day after the swap years down the road ill get fully forged pistons.

plastic or aluminum i dont think matters that much at this point, if they make an aluminum one i'll switch later, they have tested there setups up to 400-600 hp with stage 3 kits successfully. I will double check though today if the LE5 with a stage 2 comes with plastic intake or if they change it when doing a stage 2 turbo.


Page 83 of the GM sport compact performance build book 3rd edition .Cast iron crank , 1019 steel rods .None of the LE5 motors had forged internals .The plastic intake is a good one , flows well .Your upper limit is 20 PSI before it splits open and you would be wise to set an upper boost limit of 16 PSI anyway because your pistons will break an upper ring land above that .I think you are really going to enjoy this engine set up 300 hp and I would bet close to 300 lb ft at the wheels is lots of power for any car let alone a Fiero .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-14-2014).]

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wftb
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Report this Post03-14-2014 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 4thfiero:

So when my 2.8 engine harness is removed...is it possible to wire up my tail lights another way to make them work?? Bcc the Ecotec harness wont be connected to it. My c500 connector was removed and the wires are just spliced together individually.



When you remove the 2.8 , you just get rid of the parts of the engine harness you wont be needing (almost all of it ) .The tail light , trunk wiring etc. does not need to be touched .
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Report this Post03-15-2014 02:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 4thfieroClick Here to Email 4thfieroSend a Private Message to 4thfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Check the LE5's of those years i stated, i did some research online and on ecotec forums, apperantly the LE5 does have forged internals. *shruggs*

Yeah im totally pumped for this swap!! I cant wait to post pics!

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Page 83 of the GM sport compact performance build book 3rd edition .Cast iron crank , 1019 steel rods .None of the LE5 motors had forged internals .The plastic intake is a good one , flows well .Your upper limit is 20 PSI before it splits open and you would be wise to set an upper boost limit of 16 PSI anyway because your pistons will break an upper ring land above that .I think you are really going to enjoy this engine set up 300 hp and I would bet close to 300 lb ft at the wheels is lots of power for any car let alone a Fiero .



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Report this Post03-15-2014 03:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you dont believe GM's own literature ? I do not know why the forums have the wrong info but they do . WWW.turnkeyenginesupply.com...e-assembly-off-road/ that link will take you to a page where you can find all the specs . Anyway the newest LE5 has forged connecting rods but still has the cast iron crank .but it also features DI .This website offers turnkey wiring harnesses and controllers for 1600.00 . AEM's do it yourself controllers are quite a bit cheaper .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-15-2014).]

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Report this Post03-17-2014 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The LE5 switched to sintered powder style rods in 2008 - part #12598216. Before that they used part #12596088, forged steel.

See http://www.youtube.com/watc...bedded&v=hp931tDlHoU for a rather useful explanation of the difference.

If you are going to push that sort of power out of the LE5, I suggest that you source some early rods, just to be safe. I don't know that anyone can say authoritatively whether the sintered would be safe for what you want to do, but I think all would agree that the forged would add some safety margin.

Or you could use an LNF out of an HHR or Cobalt SS and just deal with the wiring to put in the later. In the absence of an after market swap harness, harvesting the whole engine harness and computer from a donor car would be the easiest.
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Report this Post03-17-2014 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My info indicates the opposite , that they just recently switched to forged rods .My GM ecotec build book lists the early LE5 rods as being 1019 steel , same as the 2.2 L61 .The LSJ is listed as 5115 steel and here is a shocker that i never noticed before the LNF rods are listed as 1019 steel as well .But it really does not matter because people have pushed stock 2.2's to over 300 hp without rod failures and the LE5 rods are thicker than the 2.2 rods .They will easily handle 350 HP and the cast iron crank will go over 500 without a problem . The HP range the OP is shooting for can be reliably obtained .I would suggest water meth injection to keep the pistons cool .Pretty sure the upper ring land is the weak link here , the same as a stock 2.2 .GM reccomends forged billet rods and forged pistons for all high HP builds for all ecotec motors .If you are building for above 350 HP , none of the stock rods are worth using .And thats where it starts getting expensive .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-18-2014).]

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Report this Post03-18-2014 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for akademikjeaniusSend a Private Message to akademikjeaniusEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:

Or you could use an LNF out of an HHR or Cobalt SS and just deal with the wiring to put in the later. In the absence of an after market swap harness, harvesting the whole engine harness and computer from a donor car would be the easiest.


 
quote
We have a stand-alone computer and harness that will work for your LNF swap. It runs $2000 for the computer with a tune, harness, relay pack, and an O2 sensor. You would need to purchase a gas pedal, mass air flow sensor, and boost sensor. We can supply them all if you do not have them. Everything is in stock and ready to go!

Sean McKillop
Custom Built Motors
909.291.7550 phone Ext. 2004
909.291.7554 fax
www.custombuiltmotors.com/

[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 03-18-2014).]

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Report this Post03-18-2014 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

My info indicates the opposite , that they just recently switched to forged rods .


Your book is incorrect. The 2008s and later got the sintered metal rods.

I agree with you that the rods are probably fine up to at least 300 bhp, but when you can get a set of LNF rods easily enough, it might be a good idea to use them. One vendor had a sintered rod let go on a build that put out 303 whp, which is approx. 350 at the crank.

 
quote
2006-2007: 12596088 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (1ST DES) ROD, CONN (FORGED STEEL W/ROUNDED EDGES ON CAP AND MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 2ND DES SEE 12611360)

2008+ 12598216 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (2ND DES) ROD, CONN (POWDER METAL W/SMOOTH SURFACE CAP AND SINGLE RIDGE ACROSS CAP, W/O MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 1ST DES SEE 12596088)
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Report this Post03-18-2014 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is so much conflicting information about this motor I would like to get one and tear it down and see for sure . One website called the rods forged powdered metal , an oxymoron if you ask me .But my point is this : GM does not reccomend any of the stock rods for above 350 HP .They dont recomend the stock LSJ pistons for above 300 HP either .So if you are going to tear it down , you are wasting your time with stock rods and pistons from any of these motors .I have wiseco pistons and eagle rods in my 2.2 . I made a stock 2.2 survive under boost but long term the after market parts are the way to go .Something else I am noticing is cheap prices for N/A LE5 packages .I just saw 2600.00 for engine , harness and ECM on one of the websites .Find a used low mileage F23 with stock clutch and you would be well on your way .
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