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rebuilt engine runs but smokes after idling for a while? by new-b
Started on: 03-11-2014 09:50 PM
Replies: 40 (2302 views)
Last post by: Georelle on 04-12-2015 10:05 PM
new-b
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Report this Post03-11-2014 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I had a issue with an engine smoking. Found pits in the cylinder from bad head gasket. Got A block from junk yard and rebuilt it .030 over. New valves, seals, gaskets, ect... after installing it I ran it to temp and set the timing. When I hit the throttle it blew a huge cloud of smoke. Guides looked good with no major slop. Ran it to temp several times thinking maybe it was leftover oil in the pipe. Still blows smoke. So bad that in McDonalds drive through cars acctualy back up in line when I move forward. I'm thinking the head was cracked into the exahut port and the machine shop missed it. Hope not so I'm looking for help here first. Its got a new pcv valve too. And its a 4 cylinder. Any ideas?
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Report this Post03-12-2014 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dematrix86gtClick Here to Email dematrix86gtSend a Private Message to dematrix86gtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any chance your rings got lined up? Stopped up drainbacks in the heads, wrong valve seals, chromemoly rings that aren't seated yet. If the Trans is a auto and has a modulator valve can be sucking Trans fluid up to the intake. Those are just a few that come to mind. Hope u get it sorted out quickly and easy.
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Report this Post03-12-2014 01:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rings are all 120 offset. Valve seals look the same as the ones that came off the motor during disassembly. Runs OK but I need it to pass smog. Don't see smoke while running at speeds or ideling but after idling for a minute or two it will bellow out a huge cloud of oil smoke. I think. Thought it was the massive pits in the cylinder but after replacing the block and boring it out with a fresh rebuild I think its the head. Evap canister full? Egr passage? Shooting in the dark here. Thanks.
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new-b
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Report this Post03-12-2014 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
O yeah its a manual and all ports in engine were Cleaned very well. Never know what's in there when you get it back from the machine shop. Its a 1986 notch back Isuzu 5 speed with a tech 4 in it. All hoses routed and replaced. All filters replaced. Plugs, wires, cap and rotor, all gaskets and seals. Thing should be ready for at least another 100,000. To my surprise its still smoking.
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tebailey
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Report this Post03-12-2014 07:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As stated above the only things that could cause what your listing would be valve seals or chrome rings. I've run into both. New valve seals could be installed without pulling the head, but rings are another problem.
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post03-12-2014 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My suspicion would be with the rings from an experience I had with burning some in a turbo application after severely leaning out the motor. It smoked like a mosquito truck afterwards until I disconnected the PCV lines from the valve cover. As long as there was no PCV feed to the intake there was no smoke which means there was excessive blowby misting oil into the intake so remove your oil cap at operating temp and note whether or not there seems to be a considerable amount of combustion gas coming from it.

If it is a ring problem you may also be able to pick it up in plug appearance, perhaps a machine shop error involving a cylinder bore is the problem as I have had that happen before made evident by how difficult it was to get an oversize piston in one cylinder. An oil ring could have been damaged on install and missed.

50W oil might be able to help confirm this also as it will reduce the tendency to smoke due to its viscosity.
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TriumphFetish
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Report this Post03-12-2014 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TriumphFetishClick Here to Email TriumphFetishSend a Private Message to TriumphFetishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How many miles have you put on the rebuild? If the rings haven't seated you could get oil past them.

Just reread the line about fogging out the McDonalds... missed that the first time. Probably not what I said. :-)

[This message has been edited by TriumphFetish (edited 03-12-2014).]

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Report this Post03-12-2014 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you sure the rings got put on right side up?
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post03-12-2014 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gotta Ask, What KIND of OIL was put in" after the rebuild" ?? If you put in Synthetic, the rings will never seal until you take the synthetic out and put in regular Dino Oil for at least 500 miles. Been there, done that.
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post03-12-2014 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lou6t4gto

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. also, What COLOR smoke ??
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Report this Post03-12-2014 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are you sure it isn't running rich?
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Report this Post03-12-2014 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I'm sure the rings were installed right. I used castrol gtx5-30. And its a blue white smoke. Smells of oil. No iratic idle.
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Boostdreamer
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Report this Post03-12-2014 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe try some Marvel Mystery Oil and a new PCV valve and grommet.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post03-12-2014 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
if it really smells like oil then its oil, but if you have white smoke that's water, you had the engine rebuilt by someone else, reputable place I hope? You said you know the rings were set off from each other, how do you know? because they told you or because you put the heads on yourself? if you put the heads on yourself that may be the problem, possible didn't torque the heads down properly, 2 step method? bad gasket?

As well as things others have said

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post03-12-2014 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many years ago I rebuilt a continental engine, all they could get were high speed chrome rings. It did exactly the same thing. Tore it back down and swapped with cast rings from another engine. Ran fine after that. No more smoke after idle. I'm going to say you may have run into the same thing. But check everything else first. One other thing, did you get .030 rings and pistons?

[This message has been edited by tebailey (edited 03-12-2014).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post03-12-2014 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I know what it is, If the heads were shaved or if you weren't careful during the rebuild, you may have oil getting past the intake manifold gasket due to a poor seal. That area is very sensitive with shaved heads especially due to the narrow angle.
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Report this Post03-12-2014 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's a 4 cyl. Milled head doesn't affect that.
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Report this Post03-12-2014 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

It's a 4 cyl. Milled head doesn't affect that.


Sorry about that, missed that crucial point.

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Report this Post03-13-2014 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Are you sure it isn't running rich?


My thought as well.
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Report this Post03-13-2014 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I have rebuilt several engines with great success. The rings are right side up and spaced correctly. Every bolt hole was taped out and every bolt cleaned. All bolts torqued in sequence. While typing this I just thought about the head bolts were suppose to get a sealer on them. I didn't have it and I forgot to put it on. I was excited to get it done when I got off work. I thought it was to keep the moisture out. The old head bolts were rusted in place. Could this be the problem. Is there a passage dumping oil into the exhaust manifold?
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Report this Post03-13-2014 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also I see two people here saying ( is it running rich? ) . It could be. Was playing with it yesterday and the idle started to hunt then it set code 15 . Its a new sensor soi I still have to test it and the wiring. This may have been just out of spec causing it to run rich the whole time. But how could it cause it to smoke blue and smell like I have an exhaust oiler.... the smoke is not black and don't smell like fuel. Please elaborate.
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Report this Post03-13-2014 10:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by new-b:

Also I see two people here saying ( is it running rich? ) . It could be. Was playing with it yesterday and the idle started to hunt then it set code 15 . Its a new sensor soi I still have to test it and the wiring. This may have been just out of spec causing it to run rich the whole time. But how could it cause it to smoke blue and smell like I have an exhaust oiler.... the smoke is not black and don't smell like fuel. Please elaborate.


Make sure you replaced the correct sensor, as there is one for the ECM and one for the guage.
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post03-13-2014 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
running Rich is Black or Dark gray smoke, not blue.
" Don't see smoke while running at speeds or ideling but after idling for a minute or two it will bellow out a huge cloud of oil smoke." That's coming in the valve guides.
I once had a 350 chevy rebuilt, they did such a bad job on the Guides, on a 1500 mile trip it Used 5 Quarts of oil. couldn't see it going down the road either. Did they put MUSHROOM or "O" seals on the guides ?
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Report this Post03-13-2014 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

running Rich is Black or Dark gray smoke, not blue.


Yup, but sometimes people tell the difference, and that is why we have to ask...

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new-b
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Report this Post03-13-2014 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought guides to. But guides have acceptable play and the exhaust only have o'rings.
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new-b
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Report this Post03-13-2014 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I replaced all 3 step sensors to make sure I would not have this issue. Go figure. Also did the temp sensor mod to keep it from pegging the needle on startup. Tested after repairs and it works. Also pressure tested the cooling system.
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Report this Post03-13-2014 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by new-b:

I replaced all 3 step sensors to make sure I would not have this issue. Go figure. Also did the temp sensor mod to keep it from pegging the needle on startup. Tested after repairs and it works. Also pressure tested the cooling system.


You have a code 15.... so check wiring and sensor. Also the temp sensor grounds through the block so no sealant is used on threads.
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Report this Post03-13-2014 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sensor for ecm is two wire in thermostat housing so it should be through the wires only. Temp sensor for gauge is through the block. Still need to check for broken wires or bad sensor tho.
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Report this Post03-13-2014 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by new-b:

Sensor for ecm is two wire in thermostat housing so it should be through the wires only. Temp sensor for gauge is through the block. Still need to check for broken wires or bad sensor tho.


Yup


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Report this Post03-13-2014 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
really, the only other place oil could come from theway you describe it , is the pcv valve. try disconnecting and plugging the hole and see if it still does it.
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Report this Post03-26-2015 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GeorelleClick Here to Email GeorelleSend a Private Message to GeorelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am having the same issue. I wish I knew what the OP ultimately did for this issue. It sounds exactly the same and I have done exactly as he has. The engine is newly rebuilt and I know I probably spent more on the rebuild than I should have... However we spent some extra money getting the head and block done, bored .030 over at a very reputable machine shop in town here. They build most of the engines for the local racers. We were very meticulous putting it back together, yes rings are in correctly. And now it is burning more oil than when we started. It does run great and sounds great however. It no longer sounds like a tractor motor.
Ok even though we were meticulous about the rebuild I did miss the same thing as the OP. I did not put the thread sealant on the two head bolts as mentioned in the Chiltons manual. I just missed that part I wish they had that information in the same place they have the torque sequence and spec. Does any one know why these two bolts need sealant on the threads? I do not recall that there was a oil or coolant passage along the bolt hole. I have seen that done on several motorcycle motors.
So if any one knows what the thread sealant is for please let me know. Or if the OP could chime in and let me know what he did to resolve this problem. I will probably do the thread sealant anyway just for good measure but thought I would ask to see if anybody knows why it is needed.

Some additional information, we have put about 100 miles on since the rebuild. We originally used Mobile One full synthetic but have switched to straight 30 Quacker conventional as I have read that full synth is not good for seating rings. It probably has 10 miles after the oil change.

Thanks for any assistance.
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Report this Post03-26-2015 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I'm going to start by saying sorry to hear you have this issue. Since the last time I posted this i had put about 700 miles on the motor and it continued to smoke. Everyone I talked to said it was the rings. Took the motor apart and replaced the rings. Made sure to check ring gap. Reassembled the motor and have put about 600 miles on it. Motor still smokes!!! But it was so long since I did it I forgot to put sealer on the same bolts again. Torque to yield bolts so they will have to be replaced if it works. Please let me know if the sealer on the threads help. Tired of running in circles...
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Report this Post03-26-2015 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GeorelleClick Here to Email GeorelleSend a Private Message to GeorelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
new-b Thanks for the information. Sorry the ring change did not resolve the issue for you. I hate the thought of doing things over again. Which is why we were extra careful with the rebuild and spent some extra money on it.
I will do the sealant on the head bolts and let you know how it goes. I reused the original head bolts and just torqued to the spec in the book. It shouldn't be too bad. I am going to drain down the coolant pull the valve cover loosen all the head bolts, pull the two out put sealant on and re-torque. The let it sit for a good 24 hours. Probably won't get to it until next week.
I am also going to talk to the machine shop I had the work done and see if they have any ideas.
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Report this Post03-26-2015 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Georelle:
I am also going to talk to the machine shop I had the work done and see if they have any ideas.


Your machine shop is not going to want to tell you that they put in valve guides or valves that were the wrong size, and oil is dripping down into the chambers.....but I suspect that might be what is happening.
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post03-26-2015 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would say the rings didn't seat, did you drive all nice and easy being a new engine, or did you SEAT THE RINGS. Driving it easy just doesn't work, not saying to abuse it but it needs to be drivin hard to seat them, follow the procedure in the book to do it. I have seen where idleing the engine too long after a rebuild makes the rings hard to seat. You need a good load to do it.

To Georelle, don't ever use quaker state or penzoil, the worst 2 oils out there. Full of dirt, causes sludge, and can cause a car to smoke just by themselves.
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Report this Post03-26-2015 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd start with a wet/dry compression check. That way you can narrow it down to a single cylinder issue (such as a leaking valve seal, or a misaligned piston ring gap) or if it's a problem across them all (such as caused by wrong oil or issue with type of rings used). You'll also narrow it down to a head problem or a block problem.
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Report this Post03-27-2015 08:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GeorelleClick Here to Email GeorelleSend a Private Message to GeorelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks to all for the help.

Gall757 The shop may not want to admit they did anything wrong. On the other hand they have a good reputation and they have done quite a bit of work for me so they may not want a vehicle driving around town in a blue cloud that they worked on. Valve guides might be an issue but new valve seals should prevent that much oil getting in to the cylinder but then again something must be causing it so it certainly could be that. It does act like that except it doesn't really smoke as much when first started.

Sardonyx247 I did NOT use Quaker State. I am not sure why I typed Quaker State when I actually used Castrol. I also used some Zinc additive, which is not really necessary since it has roller. It is just a good practice.
I did drive it to seat the rings too by the way. Ran rpm up then back off.

Neils88 Doing some testing is the next step before anything else. Compression and vacuum. Before I take anything else apart.

Thanks again all. I will let you know what we find.

[This message has been edited by Georelle (edited 03-27-2015).]

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Report this Post03-31-2015 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GeorelleClick Here to Email GeorelleSend a Private Message to GeorelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are results from compression test and vacuum test.
The Vacuum test showed low most of the time. It would stay steady at about 16 then would at times go up to about 20. According to Chiltons, notes on the gauge and other web searches, this is an indication of sticking valve or misfire. I doubt it was misfiring.

The compression test is almost perfect. The #1 157 reading was probably closer to 160 than 155 on the gauge. I did notice some oil on #2 plug. So that along with the compression test makes me think a valve issue. As Gall757 suspected. Next step will most likely be to pull the valve cover and have a look.
#1 157
#2 160
#3 161
#4 160

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Report this Post04-12-2015 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GeorelleClick Here to Email GeorelleSend a Private Message to GeorelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I have it resolve for my car.
I pulled the valve cover and checked the valve seals. I found the No.2 exhaust seal was loose. I could see it was sitting much higher than the rest. As in not pressed down over the shoulder on the head. it was just on the valve shaft. So this jived with the oil I saw on No.2 spark plug. I had a small issue when I rebuilt it. The machine shop that did the work got the gasket set along with the rest of the parts. When I went to assemble the head there were only 4 valve seals in the gasket set. So I stopped back there and they gave me 4 they had laying around the shop. Then I find that the 4 that came with the gasket set did not fit. So I went back to the machine shop and they did not have anymore so they ordered me a full set of 8. I had already used the original 4 they had laying around the shop on the exhaust. They fit tight so I am not sure why it didn't stay tight like it should have. Anyway I replaced all 4 of the exhaust from the 4 left over from the set of 8 they gave me.

I did the compressed air in the spark plug hole to change the valve seals and it worked awesome. I used my paint gun pressure regulator set to 70psi, pulled the schrader valve out of the hose for my compression tester, and bought an $8.oo valve tool @ O'Reilly's. So that plus and $8.00 for a new valve cover gasket & my problem seems to be resolved.

We have put a few miles on since then and NO SMOKE.

New-b if you are still having issues I would take a close look at your valve seals. If compression and everything else looks good it is a good possibility you have a similar issue.

Thanks to all for the help.
Glad I took the time to do some additional tests and re-inspect things closely.

Georelle
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Report this Post04-12-2015 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for new-bSend a Private Message to new-bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What seals did you use? The book and the kit says the exhaust took o'rings on the stem. Thought it was weird but if there's a real seal I can use I will gladly try it. Thanks.
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