So removing the cat will make it loader? Anyone know how the power is effected with no cat but muffler in stock location?

quote Originally posted by AL87: my own research elsewhere is leaning towards a cat causing a real tinny, ricey noise.

What kind of research would that be? A cat would do the exact opposite of what you seem to think it does. Exhaust pitch is a function of engine displacement, valve size, and exhaust diameter. Larger diameter results in lower pitch, as does larger cylinders/valves. Smaller diameter results in higher pitch.

Also, you shouldn't be going over 4500 RPM with the stock 2.8 (or really, even a heavily modified one). The torque curve hits a wall around 4300 RPM, so going to 5-6K RPM is wasting gas, making noise, and only putting the engine at risk of critical failure.

quote Originally posted by racingfortheson: So removing the cat will make it loader? Anyone know how the power is effected with no cat but muffler in stock location?

How the power is affected? Slightly better than with a stock cat, but same as with a higher flow modern cat.

Spiraltech made up a pair for me to put in the tips cavity. I had to trim the plastic a bit, but they work fine. They have a 45* inpipe and a centered exhaust. I use Magnaflow tips for dressup. The downside is the square shape.

Magnaflow makes good tip mufflers but the length overall is a problem. The 14818 is 14" body with 2.5" intake. It will likely fit tightly but it is pricey imho.

With a simple pipe conversion collar, you can put a 3" pipe in the tip and mounting Patriot Exhaust H3844 augers inside them. It is a spiral core design for pipes and it works pretty well, not pricey either. Look in jegs

Arn

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quote Originally posted by dobey: What kind of research would that be? A cat would do the exact opposite of what you seem to think it does. Exhaust pitch is a function of engine displacement, valve size, and exhaust diameter. Larger diameter results in lower pitch, as does larger cylinders/valves. Smaller diameter results in higher pitch. Also, you shouldn't be going over 4500 RPM with the stock 2.8 (or really, even a heavily modified one). The torque curve hits a wall around 4300 RPM, so going to 5-6K RPM is wasting gas, making noise, and only putting the engine at risk of critical failure.

listening to low displacement vehicles with glasspacks on them... soo ricey... the level of it, is like... OVER 9000!

EDIT: 2.5, I've seen those Monza tips before... they are really nice, I'd totally put them on a knotchback with dual tips, but then again... I also like the cone tips the gt has (of which this exhaust will be on)

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 03-12-2014).]

quote Originally posted by AL87: listening to low displacement vehicles with glasspacks on them... soo ricey... the level of it, is like... OVER 9000!

Very loud, very slow car == ricey. And that's what you've got now.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Very loud, very slow car == ricey. And that's what you've got now.

at least its faster than stock, and that's all I care about

My 87 Gt had a Magna Flow muffler and cat removed when I purchased it. It was just loud enough to be obnoxious. Took the car to my friend that owns a muffler shop to see what he could do for it. He found a small resonator that fit perfectly and installed it. Quieted it down an now has a nice mellow sound at idle and lower speeds and quiet at cruising speeds, sound like a Fiero should sound now. Car ran smoother and mileage increased slightly.

I spent almost $500 replacing my catalyst and muffler a couple years ago. If I have to buy another cat, it will be the last one. At that point I'll hollow out the old one and only use the new on special occasions.
At one point I had a very leaky muffler and a bad cat (later found half open inside), and it was too loud under a load. It was kind of impossible to control the noise while ascending a hill, and around here they get pretty steep in residential areas. Setting aside the volume, it didn't sound very good to me either, it just droned. With the new muffler (Walker) it was more defined and I actually thought it sounded better in most conditions, including heavy acceleration. The only time I thought the near-open exhaust sounded better was when coasting down. The muffler pretty much killed that.

quote Originally posted by armos: I spent almost $500 replacing my catalyst and muffler a couple years ago. If I have to buy another cat, it will be the last one..

Unless that was the price for a full exhaust including the cat, you got ripped off. Even for being in California.

And I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to properly maintain a car, sell it and take the bus. I would say "ride a bike" but those aren't cheap to maintain and upgrade with quality parts, either.

Also, LOL at all the people bitching about the $100-200 cost to have a shop replace a cat. ONE of the rear shocks on my truck went bad last year, and it was about $800 just to replace that ONE shock.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Also, LOL at all the people bitching about the $100-200 cost to have a shop replace a cat. ONE of the rear shocks on my truck went bad last year, and it was about $800 just to replace that ONE shock.

I'd bet it wasnt a 1988 truck.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I'd bet it wasnt a 1988 truck.

And it was gas charged with angel farts...

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I'd bet it wasnt a 1988 truck.

No, it's a 2009 with auto-ride suspension. And in 30 years, the price of replacing that with a quality part is not going to drop significantly. On the other hand, in the last 30 years, the cost of replacing a catalytic converter, has decreased significantly. If the cost of replacing the converter is one's excuse for just removing it or hollowing it out, then you might as well just remove the engine too, because if it goes bad, it's going to cost more than $500 to replace with a brand new one. Oh, and who needs tires? Those things are expensive too. Or brakes and rotors.

I can't tell wheither this thread is funny or obnoxious. If you want a cat, install a cat. If you don't want a cat, then don't install a cat. Up here anything pre 95 doesn't need a cat. Have I taken cats out? Sure. Do I care about the enviornment, sure why not. My truck has four cats in it from the factory. If they go bad, you bet I'll cut them out and install two cats instead to keep it legal.

Does it improve flow to cut out a cat, yup. Proven just by listening to the sound.
Does it increase hp, I'd say so.
Does it decrease torque, I'd say so.
Does it really effect performance, probably not.
Does it kill babies, no.
Might it in 200 years, yeah probably.

Do what you want, but ANYTHING is better than a clogged cat and a blown muffler, both emissions wise AND sound. If it was me, I'd just buy whatever performance exhaust was available on the market. It's not a daily driver for me, so my fiero does not have cats, but it does have Turbos. My daily driver is saving future babies by the dozens.

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quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Does it kill babies, no.

Obviously you've never put a baby in a cat.

And just because it is louder, does not mean it flows better, adds horsepower, etc…

My wife will attest to the fact that I smell like I was riding around with a running Briggs&Stratton in the passenger seat after driving my 88 GT with no cat...

quote Originally posted by dobey: Unless that was the price for a full exhaust including the cat, you got ripped off. Even for being in California. And I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to properly maintain a car, sell it and take the bus. I would say "ride a bike" but those aren't cheap to maintain and upgrade with quality parts, either. Also, LOL at all the people bitching about the $100-200 cost to have a shop replace a cat. ONE of the rear shocks on my truck went bad last year, and it was about $800 just to replace that ONE shock.

And you think that's acceptable for it to cost that much? Enjoy it then.

I just looked up the Amazon order history. It was $400 for the catalyst and the muffler. Add miscellaneous expenses and I'll estimate it approached $430-450. The catalyst was $150. I was happy to replace this stuff once, especially the muffler. But if the new catalyst starts to break up again, I will have little motivation to keep replacing them just to satisfy some politicians who don't even live here, and I don't want another muffler to get filled with chunks.
Yes, I am usually cheap with my car. That's why I like older GMs, from before the zealots made everything excessively complicated.

Bus? I don't see any bus. Bikes are cheap, actually, unless you just like spending money. But I'm not going to ride a bike, the range is useless for even daily transportation and they're not practical in this terrain. I'm not going to cripple my transportation to conform to your religion, sorry.
I don't live anywhere near Los Angeles. The people who insist on living underneath a layer of fog and then catalyzing laws because of it, are the least of my concern. Around here we have semi-annual forest fires. That's an actual air quality issue. I breathe it for 1-2 weeks, and no number of laws is ever going to stop it. Nobody who actually lives here even notices, let alone cares about somebody else's car exhaust. The impact of that is laughably insignificant in such a rural area. People here like old cars, trucks, motorcycles and other dirty things. Almost everybody has at least one, and people don't have the mentality to whine about whatever their neighbors are doing like city slickers usually do.

I properly maintain the car, it's in much better condition than it was when I bought it.

I just don't want to spend extra money on something that I know sometime down the road I will have to be replacing it again...

and like I said, the novelty of the straight pipe setup I have has lost its novelty.
sure as heck sounded racy though, I got asked all the time if I had a v8 in it when I'd pull into gas stations.
the motor has been pulled out and set aside as it now waits for a bigger cam, and new bearings.

I'm going to enjoy the OE spare I have sitting here that'll be going in, with a bullet cat and muffler with a 2.84 geared trans.
I'll gladly say hello to increased mpg... it'll mean more money in my pocket for other projects.

quote Originally posted by armos: Nobody who actually lives here even notices, let alone cares about somebody else's car exhaust. The impact of that is laughably insignificant in such a rural area.

Rural areas and ignorance go together pretty well.

Maybe they'll wise up a bit when they start losing crops due to this screwed up weather, though.

And as mentioned several times on this thread already, a brand new cat can be had for less than $50 even, so like I said, you paid too much for your cat and muffler if it was $400. I just replaced the entire exhaust system on my del Sol for less than $300, and that includes a header.

Oh, and if you're replacing the cat more than once every 10-15 years, then something else is wrong with your car. If $150 every 10 years to have someone weld a cat in is too rich for your blood, then yeah, you should get rid of your car.

quote Originally posted by AL87: I just don't want to spend extra money on something that I know sometime down the road I will have to be replacing it again...

How do you drive your car then? It must be hard without oil, coolant, brake fluid, clutch or trans fluid, tires, brakes, spark plugs, rotors, or fuel.

quote Originally posted by dobey: How do you drive your car then? It must be hard without oil, coolant, brake fluid, clutch or trans fluid, tires, brakes, spark plugs, rotors, or fuel.

Its simple, I just get...

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: I can't tell wheither this thread is funny or obnoxious. If you want a cat, install a cat. If you don't want a cat, then don't install a cat. Up here anything pre 95 doesn't need a cat. Have I taken cats out?

You must live in a different country than Canada. In Canada, any car that came with a catalytic converter from the factory is required to have one.

There is a place called Manitoba... you might have heard of it? Check page 3 https://www.mpi.mb.ca/en/PDFs/VSIHandbook.pdf

A car without a catalytic converter creates 10 times more pollution, particularly CO, NOx, and unburned Hydrocarbons. A properly functioning catalytic won't slow your car down, and your car will pollute far less (and annoy the people in the car behind you far less) than a car without one. Heck, Rodney just put a post up selling stainless steel OEM replacements on the forum for dirt cheap!

Dobey and I are fully aware that anyone can do what they want with their cars. That is not the point. The OP asked "....why not" in the title of his thread, meaning he wanted input and opinions. That is what forums are for. Input and opinons.

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 03-14-2014).]

quote Originally posted by cam-a-lot: You must live in a different country than Canada. In Canada, any car that came with a catalytic converter from the factory is required to have one. There is a place called Manitoba... you might have heard of it? Check page 3 https://www.mpi.mb.ca/en/PDFs/VSIHandbook.pdf

Please read the page you told me to read (page 3), Under catalytic converters. The part that says "applies to motor vehicles Manufactured On or After January 1st 1995". Page three is available in the table of contents in case you can't count high.

Or did you even read the link that you sent me? Have you heard of Manitoba? Get your facts straight before you try and "School me".

Edit - I'm proud to be the 50th rating on your bar.

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[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 03-14-2014).]

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Edit - I'm proud to be the 50th rating on your bar.

I am cowering in fetal position in a cold sweat.. Nothing in life is more important than someone's forum rating on an online chat group about an obsolete economy car from the 80's.... The horror!!!

quote Originally posted by cam-a-lot: he wanted input and opinions. That is what forums are for. Input and opinons.

input and opinions. ^_^
at least I know that if I use the search function to find my S/N i'll know that I'll have all the info I need.
and a lot of O/T irrelevance that I'll have to sift through thanks to some who aren't proactive with their support. including my own responses*

I'm going to bed, I'll have to figure out something new to post about another day.

More condescension from dobey. What a surprise.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Rural areas and ignorance go together pretty well.

I've always thought the same of cities. Rural people are the ones who have no problem taking care of themselves. But their independence makes them a threat to certain types of people.

quote Maybe they'll wise up a bit when they start losing crops due to this screwed up weather, though.

Yeah, I'm sure the drought must be caused by pickup trucks, just like every tornado, hurricane, earthquake, hot and cold spell. The more news people watch, the more they want to believe this stuff. You'd think this was something new, like we didn't have "extreme weather" 1000 years ago.
Weather is naturally chaotic. The mathematical study of chaos was motivated by weather.

quote And as mentioned several times on this thread already, a brand new cat can be had for less than $50 even, so like I said, you paid too much for your cat and muffler if it was $400. I just replaced the entire exhaust system on my del Sol for less than $300, and that includes a header. Oh, and if you're replacing the cat more than once every 10-15 years, then something else is wrong with your car. If $150 every 10 years to have someone weld a cat in is too rich for your blood, then yeah, you should get rid of your car.

I don't expect a problem with my cat in the near term. I don't know where these $50 cats are, but I seriously doubt they are CARB approved and will stay out of the muffler. Doesn't matter if it will pass the tailpipe test. That's not good enough in CA. You can fail if the stamp on the cat isn't readable. You can fail if the timing is off, or if anything on the car isn't factory. You can fail if the idle isn't low enough. You can fail if there's any check engine light, no matter how petty it is or unreasonable it would be to fix (frequently kills OBD-2 cars). The tailpipe requirements keep getting ratcheted - they are calibrated from previous year statistics so that a certain % of cars will fail each year. Levels which used to pass are now not just failing, but "gross polluters" for the same model. We pay taxes to subsidize people "selling" failed cars to the state. The test procedure attempts to keep the cat cold. I don't define myself by my loyalty to the State, and certainly not to this process or the politics behind it. I only care about getting through it.

quote Originally posted by cam-a-lot: Dobey, are you really expecting a logical reply that makes actual sense?

Of course not. That would mean an intelligent discussion might actually happen on this forum. And you know we can't be having none of that.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Of course not. That would mean an intelligent discussion might actually happen on this forum. And you know we can't be having none of that.

intelligent discussions happen all the time, I just don't feel like taking this thread seriously anymore when things get skewed by others when they want to start criticizing. and not be supportive.

quote Originally posted by AL87: intelligent discussions happen all the time, I just don't feel like taking this thread seriously anymore when things get skewed by others when they want to start criticizing. and not be supportive.

There are always those folks who will drive folks away. Suck the fun out. Usually it doesnt take long to figure out which replies to just blow off. Hopefully new forum users wont get scared off.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Why not try it, its cheap enough and I heard somewhere that the engine needs a little back pressure anyway.

NO.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: There are always those folks who will drive folks away. Suck the fun out. Usually it doesnt take long to figure out which replies to just blow off. Hopefully new forum users wont get scared off.

Honestly, look at the crap on the Facebook groups and the huge amount of misinformation being strewn about... Regardless of reputations, look at how this has progressed.

Someone poses a question on a modification to a Federally regulated emissions device, asks why not...
Some say go for it, sounds cool!
Others say it's not legal and you should keep the car in proper working order regardless of coolness.
The sounds cool crowd goes "Boo, don't be a dream killer man, he can do what he wants with his car. It's awesome and it's cheap!"
The not legal crowd says "It doesn't matter if it's cool or not, a properly running car is better for everyone, including the owner... serisously."
The cool crowd, "Dude that guy's an A-hole. He must be rich and out of touch... Just look at his ratings bar!"
The not legal crowd, "Fine whatever... personal jab."
The cool crowd, "See I told you!! Personal jab right back at ya!"
Chaos.

It's starting to get more prevalent here, and on Facebook there tends to be nothing but glad handing and back slapping with typically very little discussion of the topic other than, "Go for it!!! Anything is possible with a Fiero! You just have to want it!"

Sigh... sorry for the rant.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 03-17-2014).]

quote Originally posted by carbon: Honestly, look at the crap on the Facebook groups and the huge amount of misinformation being strewn about... Regardless of reputations, look at how this has progressed. Someone poses a question on a modification to a Federally regulated emissions device, asks why not... Some say go for it, sounds cool! Others say it's not legal and you should keep the car in proper working order regardless of coolness. The sounds cool crowd goes "Boo, don't be a dream killer man, he can do what he wants with his car. It's awesome and it's cheap!" The not legal crowd says "It doesn't matter if it's cool or not, a properly running car is better for everyone, including the owner... serisously." The cool crowd, "Dude that guy's an A-hole. He must be rich and out of touch... Just look at his ratings bar!" The not legal crowd, "Fine whatever... personal jab." The cool crowd, "See I told you!! Personal jab right back at ya!" Chaos. It's starting to get more prevalent here, and on Facebook there tends to be nothing but glad handing and back slapping with typically very little discussion of the topic other than, "Go for it!!! Anything is possible with a Fiero! You just have to want it!" Sigh... sorry for the rant.

I avoid facebook mostly I no nothing of those happenings.

For me its not so much about the point either side might be trying to make but how its said. Anyway, I too dont like to be behind a car with no cat, that came with one from the factory, it reeks. I was more just referring to civility and decency on the forum.

Sort of like what was said here \/\/

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: I can't tell wheither this thread is funny or obnoxious.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Sort of like what was said here \/\/

Like this?

quote Edit - I'm proud to be the 50th rating on your bar.

I don't agree with what you're saying so I want you to know that I negged you...

That is what scares people away from posting on a forum.

Pointing out the cons of an idea is not 'sucking the fun' out of a conversation. Pointing out facts, such as removing and not replacing a catalyst in the US is illegal and the fact that the car will run better with one installed, is not being hypercritical or unsupportive or driving people away... completely to the opposite, it will help to someone to come to a better final result, if not for the originator of the post because he's hell bent on not having a cat, then the people who find the thread in the future who are looking for accurate information.

Edit - My favorite line from this conversation:

quote Holy crap, I didn't know Fiero owner where a bunch of tree hugging liberals.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 03-17-2014).]

quote Originally posted by carbon: Pointing out the cons of an idea is not 'sucking the fun' out of a conversation. Pointing out facts, such as removing and not replacing a catalyst in the US is illegal and the fact that the car will run better with one installed, is not being hypercritical or unsupportive or driving people away... completely to the opposite, it will help to someone to come to a better final result, if not for the originator of the post because he's hell bent on not having a cat, then the people who find the thread in the future who are looking for accurate information.

I actually agree, and my meaning was the junk from both sides of the cat argument suck the fun out. I dothink it could have been done better as not to incite so much kickback. I was mostly posting in reply to the OP who seemed bummed over the seemingly aggrivated responses. Unless you maybe have followed this more - about what has been going on and this entire thread was a bait? I do think continuing to put back in someones face that they should run a cat, when the person has decided not to can become a bit of an un needed spat. But anyway.
I've been in OT, and there doesnt need to be a reason sometimes.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: OP who seemed bummed over the seemingly aggrivated responses.

Unfortunately a common problem is that humans can be quite emotional, and will read emotion into a few lines of pure text, where there is no emotion.

And if your posting a thread asking "why not?" about running glasspack/straight pipe/etc in place of the cat, then you should expect responses you don't agree with. "It is illegal and bad for you, your neighbors, the planet, etc…" is a valid and acceptable response. It doesn't deserve itself to be replied to with "screw you hippies and Obama for trying to put me down." Because all such a reply does is elevate the thread into one where personal attacks are accepted and common, by making them yourself.

If you don't want any discussion that you would disagree with, then don't ask why you should or shouldn't do something.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Unfortunately a common problem is that humans can be quite emotional, and will read emotion into a few lines of pure text, where there is no emotion. And if your posting a thread asking "why not?" about running glasspack/straight pipe/etc in place of the cat, then you should expect responses you don't agree with. "It is illegal and bad for you, your neighbors, the planet, etc…" is a valid and acceptable response. It doesn't deserve itself to be replied to with "screw you hippies and Obama for trying to put me down." Because all such a reply does is elevate the thread into one where personal attacks are accepted and common, by making them yourself. If you don't want any discussion that you would disagree with, then don't ask why you should or shouldn't do something.

That was another user "racingfortheson" and not the OP , but I get your point.